WORLD EASE OF USE: INTERACTIVITY AND YOU

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Craze
why would i heal when i could equip a morningstar
15150
This topic is a reply to a comment thread in the screenshot topic.

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Ashley_Lacure
Alot of items to interact with, the alarm clock allows you to set and alarm to wake up earlier, the chest has a mini game to dig for treasure, and the dresser still allows you to change your clothes.

All thats missing are the lighting effects and shadows I need some help with em.

Craze
ashley please remove the entirely unnecessary PRESS RETURN TO INTERACT image, why is it even there

also I'm guessing we can tell that we are sprinting because... we would be sprinting. So, why is that there?

ELIMINATE CLUTTER.

LockeZ
Making an "interact" icon appear when you stand in front of an object that can be interacted with is something that's been done by almost every game since FF9, and I for one super duper appreciate it. There are very few things I hate more in RPGs than checking every tile in the game trying to figure out what I can search or interact with.

Similarly, I'm guessing the sprint indicator is there to tell you when you *can* sprint, not to tell you when you *are* sprinting. If you can always sprint and it really is just there to tell you that you're sprinting... uh, then yeah, I do agree with Craze, a little silly. I guess if you press a button to toggle sprint instead of holding it down to sprint, then that's slightly justified, but still also slightly silly.

Ashley_Lacure
@Craze: The interact image will stay, its used to tell you what items on the map can actually be configured and used. Also in terms of the sprinting icon I have yet to finish the stamina system but a little green gradient will fill the white similar to DHM's system.

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The Craze Argument:
<2k3 user> any game sucks unless at least three pictures are used in each frame of the game

There are far better ways of identifying what is usable or not in a 2d game (and in a 3d game, but 2d games can do it more easily since they only have the single camera that cannot hide the arbitrary graphical events). For example, sparklies tell you what you can and cannot interact with without needing to walk on every tile! Also, you could just inform the player: <sister> "go up to your mirror to change your outfit!" There's also more direct use of graphics, like, all red things can be used - but obviously that requires a stylistic change.

If the goal is to lower the amount of move-and-click repetition to see if anything can be interacted with, your game needs to have a much better system of telling the player what is and what isn't usable. With your system, you still need to walk to up to everything - defeating the purpose of the system beyond the 2k3r idea of ALL THE PICTURES!!!

Hey, I'm not the only one saying this: http://rpgmaker.net/articles/6/

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So, how do you feel about Ashley_Lacure's system/LockeZ's argument/my counter/etc.?
How have games helped you interact with the world in your game, other people's games, commercial games, etc.?
Are there better ways than the Ashley/FF9 method (my negative opinion should be obvious), or is it fine?
Has a lack of knowledge about interactivity ever frustrated you in a game? How?

This is an incredibly important part of game design across almost all genres, so I'm quite interested in this discussion!
chana
(Socrates would certainly not contadict me!)
1584
I don't like to be shown where to interact, it ruins the credibility of the game and it's... a bore. I also hate to have to go check every single piece of furniture. The best I've seen in that field is where you're told that such and such pieces of furniture can hold items : no more than three, and, if possible , not too many of those three throughout the game.
Yeah, I don't like sparkles or flashing items. It's like playing connect the dots; walk here,here,here, and here, then leave the room. I like exploring. I don't mind walking up to most tiles to see what I can interact with. After a while you get used to what kinds of things can be examined and the creator must keep it consistent or it becomes annoying. I'm not going to check every flower and bush in the forest, but maybe the tree trunks. Or in a house, if I see potted plants never have interactive events I won't keep checking them, but that book on the table looks interesting...

Most of the time it's extra bits of information and sometimes an item. If it's related to the story, then what you mention about an NPC flat out telling you where to look is the way to go.

The kind of "show picture for interactivity" is done well in Fey. It's there for opening doors, jumping over a fence, talking, examining stuff... and it's a small green icon over your head. It looks nice and it doesn't feel like clutter on the screen.

It would be harder to implement, but I like to have a target system. Like the Zelda games on N64 or Final Fantasy 11. You can cycle the target on any interactive object and press a button to examine it.
what does this have to do with engine choice again?
My opinion slightly differs from Chana's. I ENJOY checking everything-it feels(potentially) immersive and allows me to take in the graphics. I don't like being told what I can and can't interact with and when I can do it. Put in a crap-load of events and give me choices as to what I interact with. I especially don't like it when I'm disabled- I.E. when I can't run inside. Let me run inside-if you really dn't want me to, have someone yell at me for it or something. Unless it;s a scene or something that normally you wouldn't think to interact with. Though, you can't go wrong with sparklies. Sparkle sparkle.
Being shown where to interact further encourages players to spend time checking every corner and piece of furniture inside a room. It typically takes players by the hand to help them find every hidden item that's lying around.

I'm neutral on whether it is useful or not. Some games do well with it (FF9), others do well without it (Breath of Fire).

I however think that it kills some of the "enjoyment of the discovery" factor.
Craze
why would i heal when i could equip a morningstar
15150
Darken
what does this have to do with engine choice again?


The observation is based on the 2k3 Show Picture addiction. The VXP addiction is Tankentai and HUDs. I'm an equal-opportunity shit-hater.
My Argument:

Good topic. First I dont believe RM2k3 users all find a desire to use pictures. If they do its their game so I cant really say yes or no to their implementation of pictures unless they are not using pictures properly or the pictures clutter the screen, thus I believe my interactive system works well. When you walk towards something or if you are in the interactive objects general area (2-3 tile radius depending on the importance of the object) you will get the "press to interact". It doesn't take away from the game play, it doesn't slow the game down in anyway, and if anything it makes it clear what you can interact with.

Note: As said early FFIX does a great job of this. In my game some items you see on the map are interactive as opposed to some games where they are simply for show.

In terms of the exploration factor I don't believe a system telling you that you can interact with something limits exploration. Look at Skyrim, the game tells you what you can interact with but exploration is not based on the system telling you "here is a Smithing Iron" its based on the player actually going out and exploring the world. In my game for example, this system will pop up when you are close to an item that can be configured or provides a means of interaction other than just dialogue describing what it is.

Example: In this screen I am facing a mirror, while I can press enter the game will only give my some internal dialogue about something on the players mind. But if I turn to my left and press enter on the dresser I can change my character's outfit if I desired to.

I do understand why some people dislike HUDs, however in terms of interaction and my game this system works best.
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
Craze, I'm not even saying you're wrong but...every commercial game made in the past five years called, and they want a word with you.

Seriously, I can't remember the last time I played a new game WITHOUT "context-sensitive" popups telling me to "Press button you already know about to do something you already know that button does in this situation" throughout the entire game.

(Actually come to think of it Skyrim was a rare exception.)
Well... if you are good enough (and have enough time) to make every interactive object visually distinct from the "background", it's the best solution.
Sparklies work in some cases, but sometimes they're just ugly.

It really depends on a lot of things: in a dungeon crawl where you just interact with chests and doors, you can just estabilish that in the beginning; in an adventure game where you can interact with a lot of things it's more complicated.
So I agree that the "press A" picture is not the best solution, but it's effective and simple enough.
author=Max McGee
Craze, I'm not even saying you're wrong but...every commercial game made in the past five years called, and they want a word with you.

coincidentally all bad
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
every single one geodude? if you believe that you're a fanatic, bro
Skyrim does it as well. Like I said earlier unless it distracts from gameplay, who cares.
author=Max McGee
every single one geodude? if you believe that you're a fanatic, bro

no exceptions. no surrender.
I don't know about this. There are many solutions, some might be better than others but I can't really say any are completely wrong. They just have different good sides and bad sides.

A popup when you are close have the slight benefit of allowing a player to explore and find new things while not being forced to click everything in the world in order to find its secrets.

A constant sparkle or glow or similar thing have the benefit of telling the player immediately what you can and cannot interact with. Cutting down on downtime and allowing the player to progress with a fair amount of ease. Also it takes away a certain kind of exploration gameplay from the game.

No sparkle or popup at all makes for heavy-exploration and trial and error to find secrets. Usually this is sort of reserved for game with very little interactive things where each interactive thing is more of an easter egg or secret than actually necessary to proceed in the game.

How these different things are done I don't really care. Sure a text-popup in the bottom of the screen when the player is somewhere at the top is not the most ideal solution to providing this information to a player. But really it is better than nothing at all and even though we have unlimited time to put into our projects we still have to prioritize certain things. Sure it would have been "better" if the interactive object started glowing when the player stood next to it, showing it's possible to interact with but in the end the end result is the same and it's a minor GUI niggle.

Of course I tend to get highly annoyed by GUI-niggles. But at least this one TRIED. Which is more than you can say of any game made in a Bethesda engine.
I like a mix - if there's something special (kinda necessary to plot of sidequest) that I might miss, then a sparkle is fine - especially if it's a one-off item that has interaction. For example, needing to get some kids toy when they're used for decoration in most houses. That kids toy needs to be different somehow - whether it be a colour swap, a sparkle or a special event happen with it.

But most of the time I prefer to find out for myself. The only issue with this is that you need to set the 'rules' out within the first half hour or first town. If I get to the late game and haven't found an item in a jar all game, I'm going to miss that elixir you decided to stash in a jar that one time.

Have at least one of each interactive item in the first town and dungeon so that the player can see from the start that 'this is something I should keep an eye out for in the future'.

That said, I don't mind being directed by an NPC or cut scene to point out possible hiding places. Breath of Fire II had a scene in the introduction where your thief character - Bow - steals an item from a cabinet. The game doesn't go all out and say that you can steal from them, but you end up deciding to see if you can just in case.

Or you could do as the old schoolers do - chuck everything in a chest.

Just as long as it's consistent.

Oh, and anyone remember how Wild ARMs did it? With the item scope tool that made any hidden treasures on the map glow for a few seconds. That way you could choose to either check everything yourself or take a shortcut just in case you'd missed anything.
author=Max McGee
Craze, I'm not even saying you're wrong but...every commercial game made in the past five years called, and they want a word with you.

Seriously, I can't remember the last time I played a new game WITHOUT "context-sensitive" popups telling me to "Press button you already know about to do something you already know that button does in this situation" throughout the entire game.

(Actually come to think of it Skyrim was a rare exception.)

Reminds me of this part of the Sequelitis video:


(incidentally, everyone should watch it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM )

IIRC, in KOTOR, objects that you can interact with are automatically targeted with your "cursor" as you walk by, and a little bubble will appear telling you what that object in (and in KOTOR2 there was the little bonus of, if you already raided the contents of that container, it will append "(empty)" to the little bubble! As in "Plasteel Barrel (empty)". Very handy. )
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I will absolutely admit that the usefulness of such a feature is heavily diminished in RPGs with tile-based movement. In most games, it might not be immediately clear when you're in range of the object you're trying to interact with, or whether you're facing the right direction. In a game with old fashioned tile-based movement, these problems never happen.

Being told that you can interact with it is still helpful. Conveying this through dialogue isn't always possible for every object in the game, especially in world-simulation games that are trying to get the player to explore. Sparkling or shining objects are an acceptable alternative, and let you know without even having to walk up to the thing (which is good or bad depending on how much world-immersion you're looking to accomplish). But if you have lots of things you can interact with (like 5-10 or more on screen at a time), sparkles can start to get stupid, and a little hud icon popping up becomes a better option. Sparkles and treasure chest icons and other such blatant visual cues work great for lootable objects, and less great things you can just inspect.
Kentona beat me to the KOTOR reference.

I think part of the problem with excessive hand holding comes from a generation gap in games. I don't remember needing pop-ups to tell me that I should check those weird spheres in the wall at the end of the World of Balance in FF6, and I didn't need an exclamation mark popping up over Crono's head to tell me that I could interact with a box.

With graphics getting better, the distinction in games between the stage and the important objects has become blurred. The developers have usually taken the route of least resistance. As a result, we're getting trained to play games by going from one "you need to click here to continue the plot" pop-up to the next. I also think this has something to do with trying to make games appeal to a wider market.

From a business standpoint, I get that you want everyone possible to buy your game, but I don't think it should come at the cost of punishing your core demographic.

Final Fantasy 12 has the distinction of being the only FF I've started and not completed (aside from the special edition of 5 when my psx started eating my discs). There was a lot of streamlining going on. You could program your gambits, and a few bosses aside, let the battles fight themselves for you. Anyone who had anything interesting to say, or a mission attached had a little icon over their head.

It felt like Square was trying to mainstream its entire audience into MMO players. Casual MMO players, at that. At first, I thought the changes were convenient, and I actually had fun with the game, although I ran around with Vaan alone for a long time because I didn't realize I had extra party members just waiting to jump in. I actually blame that one on the mechanics. The game had my brain so numbed by that point that since there wasn't a descriptive pop-up about it (unless I missed it while I was out of the room and letting my character mop up every monster in a certain radius), I didn't know there was anything going on.

It was convenient to know which characters I had to talk to to move the plot, sure. BUT looking back, even though Dalmasca was done fairly well, I don't remember much of anything about it, aside from the fact that the game had so many blatant call backs to Star Wars it was ridiculous.

In other FFs, I usually talked to everyone. Even if they said nothing of value. I have a clearer memory of Zozo from FF6 than I do the entirety of FF12. In streamlining the experience, they ruined it for me.

By the 60th or something floor of the Ziggurat (whatever the tower is), I really stopped caring about the game. Combat usually handled itself, I never had to engage in conversations that DIDN'T contribute in some way, I didn't really care about the world.

Okay, so I got a little sidetracked there. The point is that I think all the stream lining that goes into modern games to make them more appealing to the masses destroys them for some people.

I really like the KOTOR approach best, but that is hard to do in a 2d non mouse driven game. I think it wouldn't be too difficult to run a distance check between the player and active objects, and when the player is within range, and facing the right direction, briefly flash the object of interest. As soon as you've taken the item/activated the switch/smashed the mirror, the object is turned off and no longer registers in the distance check routine.

I do like the idea of putting an indicator up for someone who gives you a quest or any time you need to return to a specific person. If I put a game up for a while and return to it later, the quest description "Ring of Something... Take it to Yerzy Smith" isn't a lot of help.

I like the idea of encouraging a player to explore their environment, only reminding them that it is, indeed, a game at points that help the player, instead of just beating them over the head with it.
CLICK ME QUICK

if you do it the player complains about railroading. if you don't the player complains about not knowing what to do. it doesn't matter which you choose.
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