BEGINNER'S INTIMIDATION AND HIGH STANDARDS

Posts

author=Max McGee
It is preposterously fallacious to believe that "harsh" criticism is MORE effective. If I seriously wanted someone to consider what I was saying, I would take the effort to say it respectfully.
This. ^
It only leads beginner game devs to feel crushed and defeated, never to try RM again.
Even negative feedback can be said respectfully, you can disagree or find fault in something without tearing the persons heart out and stomping it.

I guess some members are always going to be overly snobby or rude, though. (the majority of members are good, helpful people.)


-Took the top of the page, here is Deckiller's post that wasn't there before I posted!

author=Max McGee
I was in an environment of fiction workshops where everyone was (really stupidly!) paying tens of thousands of dollars to be there, learn from each other in workshopping, and eventually get a degree. As far as sharing criticism goes, this was as much of a SERIOUS BUSINESS environment as you could possibly get--CERTAINLY IT WAS MORE SERIOUS BUSINESS THAN RMN.

We were CONTINUOUSLY ENCOURAGED to be polite, respectful, and even-handed in our feedback. So "RMN is a serious hobbyist community" is a terrible argument for there being no need to be polite. This was professional training for people who are vocationally creative and have invested money in it. We were LESS HARSH than RMN.

It is preposterously fallacious to believe that "harsh" criticism is MORE effective. If I seriously wanted someone to consider what I was saying, I would take the effort to say it respectfully.
That's what I was saying, actually. We want to offer excellent and detailed feedback, but politely. To me, professionally = politely yet directly.

And just an aside here: I understand that Craze is trying to "shock the developer" with his approach - and this approach certainly works for some people - but a lot of developers are equally defensive about their work and will turtle up when hot water is thrown at them. If I want a personal coach, it would be someone like Craze. I'd ask him to go all out. But that requires a certain type of person...someone with a high degree of ambition and thick skin, as well as someone with a sense of urgency about their work. Even on a site with high standards like RMN, those people are few and far between. And such coaching also runs the risk of being biased - it must be tied to what the developer is trying to do, even if the coach doesn't like it.

TL;DR - Craze's method works well for decent developers who are looking to take their hobby to the pro level, but only (1) if the criticism is tied to what the game is trying to do, and (2) if it's done one-on-one.
LockeZ
The Z is for Znderson; RMN's resident antagonator
1686
author=MM
DOES ANYONE ACTUALLY DISAGREE THAT IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA TO BE A BIT NICER AND MORE POLITE TO NEW MEMBERS WHEN ASSESSING THEIR GAMES?

Two ways to interpret this question, so I'll answer both.

Nicer to new members than to old members? I can agree with that, I guess. A quick mental review of how I actually treat people suggests that in fact I do try to be nicer to people who are new, since I want them to stick around long enough for their games to become good. ...Though, newbies' games tend to have more serious problems, but at least I'm nicer to them than I would be to oldbies who had the same problems. ...Except if an oldbie does something bizarre and off-putting, I'm more likely to realize when it's on purpose and there's no talking them out of it, so I won't mention it. Hmm. If you tell me that I give off the appearance of being harsher to newbies, I can totally understand why you'd say that. I'm not sure how to solve this problem aside from just ignoring a bunch of the newbies' problems, though. I at least try to be nicer and more polite to them, it's just that a lot of my effort gets cancelled out by the quantity and severity of the problems.

Nicer to new members than we're being now? Yeah, I disagree to the extent that I don't think it's worth worrying about. That's what the last 11 pages of this topic have been about so I'm pretty sure very little more needs to be said.
Max McGee
My name is Legion: for we are many.
8101
How about interpreting the question as "nicer to new members than we were to Zeuzio"?
RMN has already changed dramatically since Zeuzio's first game, so I don't think that's a problem either.
slashphoenix
get drink, mak gams
1290
If we start talking about sex I think this topic will have covered all the major fields of philosophy!
LockeZ
The Z is for Znderson; RMN's resident antagonator
1686
Wait I thought every post since page 4 had actually been subtextually about sex

If that wasn't the case I need to go revise some of my posts. Like the ones about being "hard on people."
slashphoenix
get drink, mak gams
1290
author=LockeZ
If that wasn't the case I need to go revise some of my posts. Like the ones about being "hard on people."


"He was a great man, risen from small stature, now standing tall as the leader of the hard on people..."
Sauce
Oh bother.
1061
I don't know what it really is, but I'd like to think the mission statement of RMN is to foster game making and the development of game design.

In order to do that, you need your newbies to grow and not quit.

So establishing what you know -
A) Dicks will be dicks.

B) Many devs get emotional about their projects.

So you can address this in several ineffective ways.
A) Stop condoning dick comments or cutthroat attitudes towards all projects, especially beginners' projects. There's a time and place for harsh reality, tough love stuff, it's not for beginners. Most people are nice, but the nice people don't really put down the mean people minorities when they see it. Of course you should be ALLOWED to be harsh or impolite, it shouldn't be so enabled.

B) Better prepare newbies for the harsh criticism and dick comments they're going to get. This is just as hard to accomplish, in my opinion, but probably more effective in keeping devs going if you're successful.

In the end, you need your devs to stick around in order to improve and produce games. I know the current staff is all for it and promotes it, I'm not doubting their efforts.

I will say about the popular projects. Most critics are doubly harsh and impatient with popular projects, but those devs are NOT doubly immune to emotional outburst. Some of the biggest dick comments, I've seen on the popular game pages.

slashphoenix
get drink, mak gams
1290
Really, both of those things are key. We should curtail overly mindless insults towards newbies while slowly allowing them to realize that not everything they do is perfect and not everyone is going to like it.
Max McGee
My name is Legion: for we are many.
8101
author='Sauce'
I don't know what it really is, but I'd like to think the mission statement of RMN is to foster game making and the development of game design.

In order to do that, you need your newbies to grow and not quit.

So establishing what you know -
A) Dicks will be dicks.

B) Many devs get emotional about their projects.

So you can address this in several ineffective ways.
A) Stop condoning dick comments or cutthroat attitudes towards all projects, especially beginners' projects. There's a time and place for harsh reality, tough love stuff, it's not for beginners. Most people are nice, but the nice people don't really put down the mean people minorities when they see it. Of course you should be ALLOWED to be harsh or impolite, it shouldn't be so enabled.

B) Better prepare newbies for the harsh criticism and dick comments they're going to get. This is just as hard to accomplish, in my opinion, but probably more effective in keeping devs going if you're successful.

In the end, you need your devs to stick around in order to improve and produce games. I know the current staff is all for it and promotes it, I'm not doubting their efforts.


Alright, I think with those closing remarks from Sauce I have no more to say about this topic; I won't be checking back here.

For what it's worth, I feel like this was a productive discussion. At the very least, I personally feel better, like this was a bit of a catharsis.
author=LockeZ
You reworded my version to sound less like fact and more like an opinion, which is fine. But I'm not sure it's actually any less harshly worded. It sounds exactly as harsh to me.


Well...given the circumstances you're describing, some harshness is probably appropriate. Like you've been saying, if you think it is a big problem you should make it sound like a big problem. It would definitely suck to hear my version about your game, but I think the fact that it reads more like an opinion, if a strong one, would help it go down a little better. It may be obvious that anything we say about the quality of each other’s games is only opinion, but I think it’s helpful in situations where you are making harsh remarks to make that clearer. From my experience, I get really bent out of shape when someone does NOT seem to know that their comments are opinion and has mistaken them for facts.
Sauce
Oh bother.
1061
There is no facts in art, only opinions. There's nothing you HAVE to do in creative work. This doens't have much to do with the topic, but let's get that out of the way.
chana
(Socrates would certainly not contadict me!)
1914
author=Sauce
There's nothing you HAVE to do in creative work.

This. The words "you have to..." come around much too often on rmn.
LockeZ
The Z is for Znderson; RMN's resident antagonator
1686
author=Volrath
It may be obvious that anything we say about the quality of each other’s games is only opinion, but I think it’s helpful in situations where you are making harsh remarks to make that clearer. From my experience, I get really bent out of shape when someone does NOT seem to know that their comments are opinion and has mistaken them for facts.

Yeah, I guess that's probably true. People are stupid blind hyperemotional human and will sometimes interpret things in the less useful way of two potential interpretations for some incomprehensible reason because they are emo wankers presumably as a result of fetal oxygen deprivation out of a distrust for other people that is stronger than their desire for self-improvement.

On the other hand, some things actually are facts. Just because I can't cite a controlled study saying that oversaturating all the wooden items in your third town until they consist solely of primary colors is fugly doesn't make it "just my opinion". Just because the 9 billion HP first boss with a party of characters who deal 20-30 damage per hit isn't forbidden in the Holy Bible doesn't mean it's not necessarily a bad idea. It is not impossible for things to just be true sometimes, and people disagreeing with something doesn't automatically make it a matter of opinion.

A lot of things are opinions, but there is also a lot of study that's been done into game design to determine what does and doesn't work well. Some of these studies I'm consciously aware of, and some I just sort of subconsciously know have been done because I can see all the games that follow them.

I guess the fact that there are actually facts makes it more important to specify when something is just my opinion, though.
Welp, I'm not sure what else to add to this topic that hasn't already been said.

author=Max McGee
How about interpreting the question as "nicer to new members than we were to Zeuzio"?


I'm pretty sure it's easier to be nicer than this... Behold, the elusive review!


Gameplay: 1/10

Although not strictly gameplay, I feel I should mention the introduction to this game first, and the reason I think I should mention it is because the introduction is very, very boring. It is perhaps one of the worst I have ever seen. It really does little to remove the initial feeling of "cliché-ness" you get from reading this game's synopsis and it basically consists of a monologue over the top of an RTP image of a planet. In fact, the monologue is straight from the synopsis, so including it seems sort of pointless.

The introduction to this game raises a point I feel I should make to other game makers: Long blocks of text are not an ideal way to start a game, and such a beginning will not get people hooked.

Unfortunately, what happens after the introduction isn't impressive either. The player is just dropped onto the world map near a town and a forest without any real direction. This might've worked for the first Final Fantasy game but it just doesn't fly now. Back when FFI was released, games (all games, not just RPGs) rarely gave you much input before the gameplay started, but doing this in an RPG now is simply unacceptable. In fact, doing this in almost any type of game now is simply unacceptable. However, I am ranting about things that are only loosely related to gameplay, so I will switch to gameplay mode.

The gameplay, or what I saw of it, seemed very traditional. The DBS is used, which I have no problem with, but the battles themselves are rather uninteresting. The enemies seem to use only basic attacks/critical attacks on you and it leaves you lusting for enemies that change their battle patterns or attempt to use skills/status effects. Also, as the battles are random, the monotonous nature can get kind of annoying as there isn't any way around them. There is nothing wrong with random battles when the enemies are interesting, but if they are not then they get old, fast. This is all fairly average for an RPGMaker game, though, and is something I can ignore since many commercial RPGs suffer from the same problem from time to time…

Except then you'll meet the imps and will get the want to smash your keyboard. I started a battle with a set of three imps and all three uses a skill that read "Imp swiped with a sharp object". The skill killed whichever member of my party it hit in one attack, dealing around 30-35 damage (characters start with less than this, at around 20 depending on class). The next turn saw one of the imps use the skill to wipe out the remaining member. Four attacks and I'd hit a game over screen. Now, I'm not sure if this is a skill that is meant to kill in one hit, but given how often the imps use it I assume it is not, so this one skill basically destroyed any sense of balance the game could've ever had. In fact, the imps were enough to stop me playing before the first boss as I simply could not get by them. Even running seemed to do absolutely nothing to help. Seriously, there is a difference between difficult battles that are enjoyable but challenging (i.e. Everything Turns Grey) and completely game-breaking misbalance.

I did decide to give the game another chance, though, and used the database to remove this skill. I played through to the first boss this time and saw nothing that changed my mind; even the boss battle was incredibly boring, and boss battles is something a lot of games do right when the normal battles themselves are monotonous (Alter A.I.L.A comes to mind here).

Characters/Classes: 4/10

The characters play no part at all in the storyline and are simply there to smash the enemies with their weapons and spells, and there is nothing wrong with this style of character for some people. However, I am someone who likes a connection with the characters to form as I play through a game so this irked me slightly. Giving the heroes any sort of characterisation would've been nice, even if it was only cliché reactions to the events occurring around them, and on that note I'd recommend looking at Demon Tower for a good example of this. The characters there are largely present just for fighting, but also have enough characterisation to drive players forward to find out more.

As for class balancing, the classes seem fairly well balanced (although I can't escape the thought that picking a team of red mages would destroy any sort of balance just as it did in Final Fantasy III). The classes are also diverse enough to make you think a little when choosing a party. However, being able to buy stat-altering items seemed to defeat the point of having classes. I could easily make a White Mage class character and buy them enough Strength altering items to make a Knight kind of character. You could argue that this would require a lot of effort in terms of gathering the items and money needed, though, so I guess this point isn't much of a criticism; just a general observation.

Another “problem” with the classes was that the mages do not seem to have any items that boost their magic stat. What is the point in buying a staff when all it does is increase the Strength stat by a small amount? More class-based items are a must in this sort of game!

In short; the characters need to have some sort of personality, even if it isn't developed too strongly, whereas the class balancing is passable.

Storyline: 1/10

A group of four heroes appear out of a ball of light to defeat a reborn evil that is again purging the land whilst being dragged into trivial quests that the people who “heralded their return” should know better than to drag them into. *Yawn*.

Graphics/Mapping: 3/10

The graphics in this game are mostly RTP and, as a result, fit together quite well. Anything not from the RTP that has been mixed in is generally mixed in smoothly and nothing really ever sticks out like a sore thumb. However, having seen the same graphics in so many games makes them a little boring on the eyes, so I can't exactly praise them.

Unfortunately, the graphics fitting together well is defeated by the mapping. Houses that are small on the outside cover whole screens on the inside and are full of wide, open spaces. The dimension problem many games seem to have to some degree is completely out of proportion in this game. The town mapping is lack-lustre also, as it is devoid of any sort of "levelling" and basically tends to consist of large maps scattered with isolated houses filled out with NPCs walking around saying useless things. Useless things like "Yay! The heroes have arrived!"

Music/Sounds: 5/10

The music in this game is typical, fantasy RPG fare and none of it is out of place. However, the transition between different tracks is far too jumpy. Songs do not fade out and fade in smoothly when they really should be doing and it can be slightly annoying (if only for a second) to hear. Another tip for other RPGMakers: Jumping from one track to another should really be reserved for the times when you want to make a statement or shock the player. Think about how this is done in movies, for instance.

As for the sounds, they do what they're supposed to do so it is hard to fault them. I don't have much to say about them.

Overall: 1/10

Having sat through a boring intro, spoken to boring NPCs, walked through empty mapping and having been killed several times by a simply game-breaking enemy, I cannot recommend playing this to anyone. People may pass this off as me being harsh, which I admit my reviews usually are, but this time I really mean it. This game is simply an awful game that shows no glimmer of hope. Usually I can recommend things I think need fixing that will make the game better, but with this game I simply can't do this. If I am honest, starting a whole new project seems the best way forward. Even if the balance was fixed, the mapping was fixed and the characterisation was improved, the storyline would still be enough to keep me away from playing this game all the way through.

In fact, this game is so bad, I am considering re-writing my other reviews from this Release Something because I see now I was judging those games based on standards that were perhaps too high. Standards I was basing on commercial games rather than homebrew ones. If this is the lowest tier of homebrew RPG then the other games I have reviewed so far clearly deserve greater praise…

And no, seriously. I'm not joking about this.

LockeZ
The Z is for Znderson; RMN's resident antagonator
1686
On the plus side, his biting review of your game was essentially a compliment to every other game he reviewed. Ha ha ha... I'm mostly kidding. (Even though that's technically true, the way he handled it clearly didn't result in any such positive feelings from anyone involved.)
chana
(Socrates would certainly not contadict me!)
1914
"If this is the lowest tier of homebrew RPG then the other games I have reviewed so far clearly deserve greater praise…"
We're on the edge of sadism there...
But again, that review was many years ago. I just don't want a new user to be subjected to that kind of treatment. Honestly, I think the review would have great without those last few comments and perhaps the scores.

But we've already established that criticism like that isn't tolerable any more, so...
Sated
puking up frothing vitriolic sarcastic spittle
6714
DOES ANYONE ACTUALLY DISAGREE THAT IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA TO BE A BIT NICER AND MORE POLITE TO NEW MEMBERS WHEN ASSESSING THEIR GAMES?

I disagree. I don't discriminate between new and old members when deciding what to say - stop being ageist.


EDIT:

But we've already established that criticism like that isn't tolerable any more, so...

Have we? Someone should send me a memo about stuff like this.
But we've already established that criticism like that isn't tolerable any more, so...
Have we? Someone should send me a memo about stuff like this.



Well, yeah.

author=Code of Conduct
Be polite and fair in your contributions to RMN, be they posts, games, reviews or the like.Keep in mind that by posting screenshots or blog entries, you'll inevitably push other people's contributions off the front page. Although this is unavoidable, it is common courtesy to put some extra effort into creating entries with actual content.
Accept criticism without lashing out. Keep in mind that feedback isn't a personal attack and people have the right to like/dislike any games or material they want.
Give criticism without making it an attack. Rationalize or justify your criticism, and deliver it with tact.