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BEGINNER'S INTIMIDATION AND HIGH STANDARDS
Posts
Zeuzio
3228
Zeuzio
Closeauthor=AABatteryauthor=kentonaI was a complete and total beginner with no games. And when Befuddle Quest 4 was released, I had more makerscore than someone who had a game and was probably far along with it.
(muahahahahaahahahahaha!)
*Ruining the grade curve since 1992
Makerscore means SQUAT when it comes to experience.
How do you have more makerscore than me? :o
I made a puzzle for BQ2 and I also have a completed game. Not that I really care, but it's a bit odd. :P
Red
0
author=Zeuzio
Are we doing a good job of integrating new members?
author=Julev
Here's an idea:
What if game submissions were separated into groups. Kind of like leagues. You have the beginner league, the intermediate league and the advanced league.
author=kentona
I don't think an official system needs to be put into place. (It would instill a false sense of trust in the "system", and when it fails -ie someone just ignores it and criticizes the game regardless, now the "system" is at fault for failing to provide those imaginary safeguards).
This is not the solution you are looking for. <---(He's right)
So the general consensus I’m getting here, from everyone, is that it’ll always remain up to the creators themselves to learn how to deal with constructive criticism.
So there’s absolutely no way we can stop someone or at least warn them? Give them some sort of idea of what to expect once they've uploaded their game to rpgmaker.net? ‘Cause I think that’s the real issue here, that anyone relatively new to the site and rpgmaker is absolutely blind-sided when they finally do receive, actual constructive criticism.
Like, I know there are game and review submission guidelines and an FAQ for game submissions that are denied. But right now, there doesn’t seem to be anything we can direct them to that would help them learn how to deal with constructive criticism or at least be made aware of it, before submitting their game to rpgmaker.net.
Do we have an article or a thread somewhere, just something so they won’t have to realize this on their own?
If not, can we make one? Like, I know it sounds absolutely ridiculous to anyone who has already come to accept this essential "fact of life". But for those who haven't, can we at least make something for them?
I'm pretty sure LockeZ was joking. Anyway, I don't think a classification system (Begginner/Intermediate/Advanced) would do us any good, even if it were voluntary. If anything, maybe one regarding our willingness to accept criticism (Willing/Not willing) could help to smooth interaction among users. But nah, that doesn't generate too much conflict to warrant a system like that either, and you can already discern such things by just observing people for a while.
The thing is, I don't think there areany many 'Advanced' users among us, I think there are mostly Beginner and Intermediate users here. This ties to something that PentagonBuddy said earlier, we all have our different area(s) of expertise. Maybe someone is good at programming, so-so at writing, but awful at graphics. And somebody else may be the complete opposite. But what truly differentiate us, is our willingness to learn from each other... We just need to encourage this way of thinking, and raise the standards a little bit, so people don't get too comfortable in their shoes and aim to improve instead. Then we'll begin to see an improvement in games, and most importantly this whole "why are we all dicks?" business will stop being an issue.
@Max: How is it asinine to expect people to act as thoughtfully as they can, instead of just going with their guts? Care to elaborate? ...And if it is asinine too, to expect people to contribute substantially to this thread, wouldn't it be great if at least they didn't quote entire posts as well?
The thing is, I don't think there are
@Max: How is it asinine to expect people to act as thoughtfully as they can, instead of just going with their guts? Care to elaborate? ...And if it is asinine too, to expect people to contribute substantially to this thread, wouldn't it be great if at least they didn't quote entire posts as well?
AABattery
732
author=Zeuzio
How do you have more makerscore than me? :o
I made a puzzle for BQ2 and I also have a completed game. Not that I really care, but it's a bit odd. :P
author=kentona
BQ2 was never reviewed
I also made a review, a script, and a tutorial.
author=Red
But right now, there doesn’t seem to be anything we can direct them to that would help them learn how to deal with constructive criticism or at least be made aware of it, before submitting their game to rpgmaker.net.
Why should we make something about a matter that they should already know? IT'S A FACT that if you make something and submit it publicly, there will be people who comment on it, and not everyone is going to be nice. It's not like it's this is only an RMN issue.
Someone go ahead and make the article. Teach them how to cook while you're at it.
My point is: Yes, it's your game, have all the fun in the world making it. But I find that attitude to be counterproductive. I wonder, did you really try other "graphic designs" to see if you they looked better being more consistent? If they weren't available, did you make a reasonable effort to create them yourself? And if you didn't do any of this, if you made a misinformed decision. How can you be sure it was the correct one?
@Max: How is it asinine to expect people to act as thoughtfully as they can, instead of just going with their guts? Care to elaborate?
It is asinine to say that "having fun making your game" is a counterproductive attitude a) in an unpaid hobby and b) when having fun making your game is what motivates most people to actually, you know, produce it.
...And if it is asinine too, to expect people to contribute substantially to this thread, wouldn't it be great if at least they didn't quote entire posts as well?
Not to toot my own horn (too late) I already made pretty much the most substantial contribution to this thread back on around Page 2. Well, at the very least the most substantial contribution I'm going to make.
Red
0
author=kentona
We also have this: http://rpgmaker.net/code_of_conduct/
Points 7 and 8 are relevant.
I think it would definitely be a good idea to include the Code of Conduct or even just a link to those two points somewhere on the game submission page along with the Game and Review Submission Rules and What to do if your Game Submission is denied as these are regular thoughts/occurrences every community member has when submitting content of any kind. (Up until this point, I didn't know we even had a code of conduct.)
I think it'll go a long way to distill the irregular hostility that comes with new community members and if not it should be somewhere close by in order to remind them. I now know it's currently the bottom of every page of RMN under Policies. But right now I think it’s in a place everyone can easily miss.
Now I'm not saying this should be moved from the bottom of the page, but like the Submission Rules, the Code of Conduct should also be posted again, somewhere on this site so absolutely no one can miss it.
It's not an end all be all solution, but it might help.
So it was a misunderstanding, then. I probably should have worded my post better... Of course I didn't mean having fun was counterproductive. I meant that the "I do things however I want and I'm not sorry for it" attitude was counterproductive. If you refuse to accept advice just because you're too comfortable doing things your way, you'll only end up hurting yourself in the long run. - But for the record, is perfectly possible to do things the best you can and still have fun. So doing things -just- for fun is no excuse to produce crappy games. Mmmh?
inb4 "Herp, and also Derp"
inb4 "Herp, and also Derp"
author=Redauthor=kentonaI think it would definitely be a good idea to include the Code of Conduct or even just a link to those two points somewhere on the game submission page along with the Game and Review Submission Rules and What to do if your Game Submission is denied as these are regular thoughts/occurrences every community member has when submitting content of any kind. (Up until this point, I didn't know we even had a code of conduct.)
We also have this: http://rpgmaker.net/code_of_conduct/
Points 7 and 8 are relevant.
I think it'll go a long way to distill the irregular hostility that comes with new community members and if not it should be somewhere close by in order to remind them. I now know it's currently the bottom of every page of RMN under Policies. But right now I think it’s in a place everyone can easily miss.
Now I'm not saying this should be moved from the bottom of the page, but like the Submission Rules, the Code of Conduct should also be posted again, somewhere on this site so absolutely no one can miss it.
It's not an end all be all solution, but it might help.
hi!
http://rpgmaker.net/submit/game/
author=alterego
So it was a misunderstanding, then. I probably should have worded my post better... Of course I didn't mean having fun was counterproductive. I meant that the "I do things however I want and I'm not sorry for it" attitude was counterproductive. I you refuse to accept advice just because you're too comfortable doing things your way, you'll only end up hurting yourself in the long run. - But for the record, is perfectly possible to do things the best you can and still have fun. So doing things -just- for fun is no excuse to produce crappy games. Mmmh?
inb4 "Herp, and also Derp"
I agree with you so far as it was a misunderstanding, and also so far as that you can do things the best you can and still have fun...although of course, if for instance you don't enjoy working on graphics, and would prefer to concentrate on something, I don't support a community environment that enforces graphical perfectionism.
Then again I'm a big opponent of perfectionism in general so...shrug.
Red
0
author=kentona
hi!
http://rpgmaker.net/submit/game/
A game must have three screenshots attached to it before it will be approved for the site. These must be submitted after you create your game profile.You are submitting a gameprofile, not just a game download. A game profile allows you to manage images, downloads, and other parts of your game. Ready to submit your game? Great! Make sure you read these topics: Code of Conduct | Game and Review Submission Rules | What to do if your Game Submission is denied.
Code of Conduct isn't game submission specific. There is no need to bombard users with it when they are submitting a game.
The point is we already do a lot to foster new users, and I am satisfied with the way RMN functions in that area right now.
I know you really seem to expect action on this issue, but we're already doing pretty much everything we can do as a site/system. We have met new users at halfway, they gotta meet us too.
EDIT:
Seriously, though, you have suggested that "hey, we should do this!" and I showed you, "yeah, we do that", and then you said "Well, we should do this!" and I showed you again, "yeah, we do that too"... and yet you (and many others) don't acknowledge that and just keep asking for more and more. At some point the onus has to fall on the end user.
The point is we already do a lot to foster new users, and I am satisfied with the way RMN functions in that area right now.
I know you really seem to expect action on this issue, but we're already doing pretty much everything we can do as a site/system. We have met new users at halfway, they gotta meet us too.
EDIT:
Seriously, though, you have suggested that "hey, we should do this!" and I showed you, "yeah, we do that", and then you said "Well, we should do this!" and I showed you again, "yeah, we do that too"... and yet you (and many others) don't acknowledge that and just keep asking for more and more. At some point the onus has to fall on the end user.
Red
0
author=kentona
Code of Conduct isn't game submission specific. There is no need to bombard users with it when they are submitting a game.
The point is we already do a lot to foster new users, and I am satisfied with the way RMN functions in that area right now.
I know you really seem to expect action on this issue, but we're already doing pretty much everything we can do as a site/system. We have met new users at halfway, they gotta meet us too.
EDIT:
Seriously, though, you have suggested that "hey, we should do this!" and I showed you, "yeah, we do that", and then you said "Well, we should do this!" and I showed you again, "yeah, we do that too"... and yet you (and many others) don't acknowledge that and just keep asking for more and more. At some point the onus has to fall on the end user.
Yeah, I guess you're right. :(
I apologize kentona. It's just, it's hard to watch how users react to constructive criticism and the resulting drama that unfolds sometimes. But I guess there really are somethings they just have to realize on their own.
Stratification CANNOT be a good thing. So let's move on from that.
My point is that the goal is to foster an environment and community where most any dev is comfortable participating in.
In other words, don't make it uncomfortable for them.
Just a reminder that criticism without any follow up advice is not appreciated by most people, regardless of how they react. It's really not helpful, so don't pretend that it is.
My point is that the goal is to foster an environment and community where most any dev is comfortable participating in.
In other words, don't make it uncomfortable for them.
Just a reminder that criticism without any follow up advice is not appreciated by most people, regardless of how they react. It's really not helpful, so don't pretend that it is.
Pretty sure no one is under the impression that offering criticism without advice is helpful. The argument is between people who think that offering criticism with advice is helpful, and those who think that even paired with advice any criticism is bad.
What the argument comes down to is this:
Is it more important to...
1) Help people to improve their games?
- or -
2) Help people to not quit making games?
And I don't think there's a right answer. Both are obviously important. Some newbies need help with one more badly or more immediately than the other. Some newbies will do one on their own, and only need help with the other. Likewise, some of us are better at helping people in one area than the other; either because of our personalities, or because of our skillsets, or just because it comes more naturally to us. So, I think we should keep doing what we're doing. It's impossible to magically pick the right answer every time unless you're a mind reader, but I feel like we are keeping problems to a minimum.
What the argument comes down to is this:
Is it more important to...
1) Help people to improve their games?
- or -
2) Help people to not quit making games?
And I don't think there's a right answer. Both are obviously important. Some newbies need help with one more badly or more immediately than the other. Some newbies will do one on their own, and only need help with the other. Likewise, some of us are better at helping people in one area than the other; either because of our personalities, or because of our skillsets, or just because it comes more naturally to us. So, I think we should keep doing what we're doing. It's impossible to magically pick the right answer every time unless you're a mind reader, but I feel like we are keeping problems to a minimum.
Touchfuzzy
100
author=Radnen
I'm just going to say it. A college education will make your "gams", games. No really, I'm much smarter now than when I was in high school or middle school (when I first used RPGMaker). I've generally read more books, played more games, and wrote more essays since then. The last point is crucial. Writing and getting better at school work makes you think harder on what to do in a video game. Plus a decent college would have higher standards for essays than a high school.
tl;dr I value a college education in game designers. I value age and maturity. Better if both when making games.
Formal education is far from the only type of education. I dropped out of high school when my girlfriend got pregnant my junior year. I didn't go back to school until I was 26, as I was busy working full time to support a family (and even then the only reason I went back was to get a degree to put on my resume). I've found that, outside of specialty classes that wouldn't affect game making (seriously, I doubt my electronics specific classes would help), I generally already KNOW what we are learning.
A desire to learn and access to information creates an education. College can supply this kind of environment, but is far from the only place you can get it.
Sorry if I seem a bit perturbed by your post, but I've seen too many college educated idiots and self taught geniuses to like the attitude of college = education. Lots of people also come from college and really DO get a good education and learn a lot, and a lot of people who don't go to college never manage to learn a thing. I'm not saying that college isn't good, just that it is far from the only path.
papasan96
628
You get the impression from reading this thread that there's loads of people submitting their first game, getting slated in a review and then immediately quitting forever. But actually I think the vast majority of games have no reviews and little or no feedback at all. Which is more discouraging? Personally, I'd rather get some feedback, albeit negative (as long as it was polite) then nothing whatsoever.
Also, my impression of the community as a whole is pretty positive, and most people seem to be much more civil and helpful here then out there in the big wide internet.
So...expect people to be polite and constructive but at the same time be grateful for any feedback - at least it means someone is interested enough in your game to make a comment.
Also, my impression of the community as a whole is pretty positive, and most people seem to be much more civil and helpful here then out there in the big wide internet.
So...expect people to be polite and constructive but at the same time be grateful for any feedback - at least it means someone is interested enough in your game to make a comment.
That's exactly my thoughts, i got attracted here because of how civil the community seems, especially for knowing what to improve on or what to fix, the good and the bad of what the people need to work on without being super harsh, bashing, flaming, whatever they call it.
author=LockeZ
Pretty sure no one is under the impression that offering criticism without advice is helpful.
LockeZ, if those people don't think that criticism without advice is helpful, then they're just being an ass. Because that makes up a lot of the comments you see around.
I'd like to think many of those people want to be helpful and don't realize that they're not. But that's probably not the case.
