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BEGINNER'S INTIMIDATION AND HIGH STANDARDS
Posts
slashphoenix
Closeauthor=Max McGee
I said that people should be nice and constructive IN REVIEWING AND COMMENTING ON GAMES.
I never said that no one is allowed to say FUCK YOU. When did I ever even get CLOSE to saying that?
Games are fucking DELICATE. They need special care and consideration. Your games, my games, and especially the games of n00bs.
That's the point, Max. If the developer can say fuck you, so can the reviewer. Get used to it. Games are not fucking delicate. They aren't beautiful little buds waiting to grow into beautiful flowers that angry reviewers just want to stomp on. Sometimes they are just weeds.
You are living by a very large double standard.
Even Craze knows that Visions & Voices is a fucking terrible game at this point, he was probably one of the FIRST people to admit that, although I understand that the second version that came out fixed a LOT of the problems with it.
Lol, I don't give a shit what Craze thinks about his own stuff, he's insane. It was a solid game - the first one was made in six weeks and had some solidly cool gameplay design, despite being broken as fuck, and the second one was actually quite enjoyable. I've gotten jealous of some of his ideas more than once and admittedly they're quite tempting to steal.
author=Volrath
"The utterly random difficulty swings made this game nearly unplayable. Your battles vary wildly in difficulty as though no thought were put into the player's power or the game's difficulty curve. As it stands some of them are literally unbeatable and the game is ruined because of it. You should read some articles on designing game difficulty curves - or, hell, just play some games and pay attention to the difficulty curves - and completely redo your game's enemies with that knowledge in mind if you don't want people turning it off in frustration."
Definitely better,imo.
As I said, I didn't mean to imply that being polite and being helpful are opposites. Just that politeness, like everything else, has side-effects. The chief side-effect in this case being that it makes the problem you're describing seem less serious than it would seem if you weren't polite.
That's not always a bad thing. In the vast majority of cases, in fact, it's a perfectly acceptable consequence. But just like every situation in life, you have to weigh the pros and cons. There are cases where the thing you're criticising is in desperate need of fixing, and being polite causes more problems than it solves.
In general, it's usually better to be polite.
That's not always a bad thing. In the vast majority of cases, in fact, it's a perfectly acceptable consequence. But just like every situation in life, you have to weigh the pros and cons. There are cases where the thing you're criticising is in desperate need of fixing, and being polite causes more problems than it solves.
In general, it's usually better to be polite.
author=VolrathYou reworded my version to sound less like fact and more like an opinion, which is fine. But I'm not sure it's actually any less harshly worded. It sounds exactly as harsh to me.
"The utterly random difficulty swings made this game nearly unplayable. Your battles vary wildly in difficulty as though no thought were put into the player's power or the game's difficulty curve. As it stands some of them are literally unbeatable and the game is ruined because of it. You should read some articles on designing game difficulty curves - or, hell, just play some games and pay attention to the difficulty curves - and completely redo your game's enemies with that knowledge in mind if you don't want people turning it off in frustration."
author=slashphoenixauthor=Max McGeeThat's the point, Max. If the developer can say fuck you, so can the reviewer. Get used to it. Games are not fucking delicate. They aren't beautiful little buds waiting to grow into beautiful flowers that angry reviewers just want to stomp on. Sometimes they are just weeds.
I said that people should be nice and constructive IN REVIEWING AND COMMENTING ON GAMES.
I never said that no one is allowed to say FUCK YOU. When did I ever even get CLOSE to saying that?
Games are fucking DELICATE. They need special care and consideration. Your games, my games, and especially the games of n00bs.
You are living by a very large double standard.
No, I just hold different beliefs than you.
I believe everyone making amateur RPGs is doing everyone who plays them a huge favor.
You believe that everyone playing amateur RPGs is doing everyone who makes them a huge favor.
That's all this is, right here. There's no double standard. You believe the game developer is obliged to respect the critic. I believe the critic is obliged to respect the game developer.
A double standard would be if I was in a constant rampage of shitting on other people's games, something that I ACTIVELY TRY NEVER TO DO ever since I realized this was a problem. I'm not PEREFECT but I'm TRYING.
(For instance, I don't actually even think Visions & Voices is bad. I agree with you that Craze is just insane.)
As I said, I didn't mean to imply that being polite and being helpful are opposites. Just that politeness, like everything else, has side-effects. The chief side-effect in this case being that it makes the problem you're describing seem less serious than it is.
That's not always a bad thing. In the vast majority of cases, in fact, it's a perfectly acceptable consequence. But just like every situation in life, you have to weigh the pros and cons. There are cases where the thing you're criticising is in desperate need of fixing, and being polite causes more problems than it solves.
In general, it's usually better to be polite.
Okay.
Dude, I don't believe anyone is doing anyone any favors. The best designers makes games because they want to and need to make games, irrelevant of praise.
Like everything else in life, it's a trade - the designer got to have fun making the game, and I got to have fun playing it. He doesn't owe me for playing his game, but I don't owe him if I had fun. If he wants something more for the trade, he can charge me money.
I'm not going to live by some standard where I'm only allowed to have positive opinions.
Like everything else in life, it's a trade - the designer got to have fun making the game, and I got to have fun playing it. He doesn't owe me for playing his game, but I don't owe him if I had fun. If he wants something more for the trade, he can charge me money.
I'm not going to live by some standard where I'm only allowed to have positive opinions.
the double standard you are advocating is "criticizers aren't allowed to be dicks, but developers can be dicks to criticizers"
author=slashphoenix
Dude, I don't believe anyone is doing anyone any favors. The best designers makes games because they want to and need to make games, irrelevant of praise.
Of course. But considering that they SOAK IN THE HORROR that is the world and SHIT OUT THE JOY that is good games, they ARE doing you a fucking favor, especially if they're not charging for it. Making a game is fun, sure, but it's also work; playing WoW and masturbating all day is fun, but it ISN'T work. If you like a game someone made, you should be grateful for the work they did.
Like everything else in life, it's a trade - the designer got to have fun making the game, and I got to have fun playing it. He doesn't owe me for playing his game, but I don't owe him if I had fun. If he wants something more for the trade, he can charge me money.
Which is eventually exactly what I will be doing.
the double standard you are advocating is "criticizers aren't allowed to be dicks, but developers can be dicks to criticizers"
That's...not a double standard. It's just a standard that differs from the one we has, which is THE OPPOSITE. Right now this is glaringly an environment where "harsh" comments from critics are totally acceptable but will make a developer who responds in the same kind a COMPLETE PARIAH.
And...secondly...that's a COMPLETE NON-ISSUE. Because if all critics were even MARGINALLY RESPECTFUL, NO OR ALMOST NO DEVELOPERS WOULD EVER HAVE REASON TO BE DICKISH.
I mean, can you imagine someone saying something like, I don't know...
Critic: "There is a white pixel outline around Gustav. His battle portrait would look better if you cleaned it up. : )"
Developer: "FUCK YOU YOU STUPID CUNT"
If critics are respectful, developers CAN'T be dicks without it being EMBARRASSINGLY OBVIOUS TO EVERYONE how dickish they are. The solution starts with the audience. Once feedback is basically respectful, the way the CREATORS treat the AUDIENCE becomes a non-issue because the creators have no EARTHLY REASON to be anything but polite.
author=Max McGee
Of course. But considering that they SOAK IN THE HORROR that is the world and SHIT OUT THE JOY that is good games, they ARE doing you a fucking favor, especially if they're not charging for it.
The world ain't a horror. Even if it sucks sometimes. Even if it sucks real hard sometimes.
The fact is, no matter what the subject is, someone somewhere will have a negative opinion of it, and I believe 100% that people should be as blunt and honest as possible. You don't have to shout your beliefs from the rooftop, but in a community such as this one, where people of similar mindsets gather, beliefs and opinions can and should be exchanged freely. I believe people should learn to formulate well-thought-out opinions before they speak, but this problem tends to take care of itself as the other members shut that person out for being obnoxious (as is happening right now).
I'm gonna keep posting my opinions, even if they're negative.
Which is eventually exactly what I will be doing.
Good for you! Come join me, it's quite a lot of fun. Be aware, though, that there are a lot more people out there who don't sugarcoat opinions, as it should be.
If critics are respectful, developers CAN'T be dicks without it being EMBARRASSINGLY OBVIOUS TO EVERYONE how dickish they are. The solution starts with the audience. Once feedback is basically respectful, the way the CREATORS treat the AUDIENCE becomes a non-issue because the creators have no EARTHLY REASON to be anything but polite.
And vice-versa, for dickish critics and polite developers. BAM
---
P.S. Did you know if you click Quote, you can see what someone's editing into their post? I learned a thing today.
I can't think of anything to add to this circular debate so. I'll say the one thing I don't think has been said.
It's just rpgmaker, guys.
/me is shot.
It's just rpgmaker, guys.
/me is shot.
author=Max McGee
I believe everyone making amateur RPGs is doing everyone who plays them a huge favor.
You believe that everyone playing amateur RPGs is doing everyone who makes them a huge favor.
Heh. That's a massive part of where this whole debate comes from, yes. Two conflicting mindsets that seem perhaps trivial at a glance, but lead to very different core values.
My viewpoint is actually a seperate, third belief. I believe that everyone making amateur RPGs is affecting, either postitively or negatively, the state of video games as a whole, and they have a responsibility to make sure they are having a positive effect.
Musicians will sometimes say something like: "It's about the music, man. It's always been about the music." That is how I feel. It's not about the players or the developers, it's about the games.
I wonder how rare my viewpoint is? I get the feeling that most people are in it for either the entertainment or the limelight, and not just to create something beautiful.
TL;DR - please critique the execution of design choices and not the choices themselves, unless the choices are broken beyond repair.
The world ain't a horror. Even if it sucks sometimes. Even if it sucks real hard sometimes.
The world is horror and sorrow and suffering and pain. To anyone who soaks that in and excretes the joy of games or art or fiction that can help alleviate our own constant suffering, we should be profoundly grateful.
I believe people should learn to formulate well-thought-out opinions before they speak, but this problem tends to take care of itself as the other members shut that person out for being obnoxious (as is happening right now).
What do you feel is happening right now, exactly? From my perspective all that is happening is that I'm finally getting through to some people, that even if they don't agree with me I'm at least being understood and they're having a real discussion about it with me. A productive discussion. Like Howard Beale, I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more.
Good for you! Come join me, it's quite a lot of fun
I have already made quite a bit of money selling my game design ability (actually most of my meager income since 2009), you know. It's not a lot of money in the grand scheme of all possible things, but it is a lot of money for what it is. Just not videogames. Yet. : )
It's weird, but if people paid for something they actually tend to be less likely to shit on it. People who have BOUGHT PRODUCTS I WROTE FOR ACTUAL MONEY AND DISLIKED THEM have been more polite about expressing their opinions than a lot of RMN has about things I've given them for free. You know, it's just human nature I guess, which is to say COMPLETELY FUCKED UP.
***
If I may drift back towards the original topic....
DOES ANYONE ACTUALLY DISAGREE THAT IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA TO BE A BIT NICER AND MORE POLITE TO NEW MEMBERS WHEN ASSESSING THEIR GAMES?
If we can all at least agree on that, I promise I will shut up about this for
author=LockeZ
I wonder how rare my viewpoint is? I get the feeling that most people are in it for either the entertainment or the limelight, and not just to create something beautiful.
I like to create the games I want to play that don't already exist. Admittedly, I'd like to make enough money to live doing it, but that's becoming increasingly secondary to me.
Also this explains my rampant dive into procedural generation :D
The world is horror and sorrow and suffering and pain. To anyone who soaks that in and excretes the joy of games or art or fiction that can help alleviate our own constant suffering, we should be profoundly grateful.
At times, but an astonishingly large part of the world is dependent on personal outlook - positive or negative. I used to think like you, too. This really isn't the topic for existentialism, though.
DOES ANYONE ACTUALLY DISAGREE THAT IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA TO BE A BIT NICER AND MORE POLITE TO NEW MEMBERS WHEN ASSESSING THEIR GAMES?
I've seen examples of politeness and rudeness. Do I think there needs to be a minimum standard of niceness? Eh, not really. I'd rather have it managed by the community instead of some facist-esque rule.
I like fully-fleshed out reasoning and logic behind criticism (see Deckiller's post above). If you don't provide that, rethink what you are saying, or GTFO.
kentona
Didn't you write the current review standards?
I think Silviera did, actually. I probably helped. I've been meaning to put together a list of guidelines, though. Not a list of objective metrics a review must meet to be accepted, but rather a list of "these are things people like seeing in reviews of their games."
The only people who would disagree, Max, are those who think that we need "tough love". As one of the more "serious hobbyist" communities, we certainly want to offer constructive criticism...but we need to do it professionally. Hobbyists are going to work and develop at their own pace - regardless of their skill level - and nobody is going to force them into something. If someone has aspirations to be a pro, then the criticism should be more intricate, but in no ways should it be more brash. They can get a personal coach for that.
To be honest, I like the idea of "gradual criticism" - as a person gains experience with game development, critics should get more detailed in their criticism. You wouldn't tell a first grader to "learn how to do calculus", for instance. Let newer developers immerse themselves slowly - they'll develop their own style as they go, too.
To be honest, I like the idea of "gradual criticism" - as a person gains experience with game development, critics should get more detailed in their criticism. You wouldn't tell a first grader to "learn how to do calculus", for instance. Let newer developers immerse themselves slowly - they'll develop their own style as they go, too.
an astonishingly large part of the world is dependent on personal outlook - positive or negative.
I have actively refuted this hypothesis non-stop for the past fifteen years, since becoming aware of this point of view at Age 10.
author=Deckiller
The only people who would disagree, Max, are those who think that we need "tough love". As one of the more "serious hobbyist" communities, we certainly want to offer constructive criticism...but we need to do it professionally. Hobbyists are going to work and develop at their own pace, and nobody is going to force them into something. If someone has aspirations to be a pro, then the criticism should be more intricate, but in no ways more brash/rude.
I hate to mention this because for some reason it has been an UNENDING SOURCE OF MOCKERY over the years for me. BUT--
I was in an environment of fiction workshops where everyone was (really stupidly!) paying tens of thousands of dollars to be there, learn from each other in workshopping, and eventually get a degree. As far as sharing criticism goes, this was as much of a SERIOUS BUSINESS environment as you could possibly get--CERTAINLY IT WAS MORE SERIOUS BUSINESS THAN RMN.
We were CONTINUOUSLY ENCOURAGED to be polite, respectful, and even-handed in our feedback. So "RMN is a serious hobbyist community" is a terrible argument for there being no need to be polite. This was professional training for people who are vocationally creative and have invested money in it. We were LESS HARSH than RMN.
It is preposterously fallacious to believe that "harsh" criticism is MORE effective. If I seriously wanted someone to consider what I was saying, I would take the effort to say it respectfully.
Respectfully, yes, but not so sugarcoated that the point is lost, Max.
I lived by this thought until age 19, whereupon I had the most insane and horrible time of my life and then decided to stop fucking around and just start enjoying what life has to offer.
insert "because i let jesus into my life"
I have actively refuted this hypothesis non-stop for the past fifteen years, since becoming aware of this point of view at Age 10.
I lived by this thought until age 19, whereupon I had the most insane and horrible time of my life and then decided to stop fucking around and just start enjoying what life has to offer.
insert "because i let jesus into my life"
author=slashphoenix
Respectfully, yes, but not so sugarcoated that the point is lost, Max.
Of course.
You wouldn't tell a first grader to "learn how to do calculus", for instance. Let newer developers immerse themselves slowly - they'll develop their own style as they go, too.
What I really, really want to be clear about is that my problem here is SOLELY AND ONLY WITH THE PEOPLE who would tell a first grader to "learn to do calculus you stupid bitch" and then endlessly and vocally defend their right to do so.
When I asked this question--
DOES ANYONE ACTUALLY DISAGREE THAT IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA TO BE A BIT NICER AND MORE POLITE TO NEW MEMBERS WHEN ASSESSING THEIR GAMES?
--I was just trying to confirm that such people don't REALLY EXIST. That it's just a straw man and that I don't have to worry about, and I can rest. I cannot...find any degree of reason...anything to reason with...in a person who is genuinely opposed to being nicer to NEW MEMBERS.
Slash, I complerely a
That's what I was saying, actually. We want to offer excellent and detailed feedback, but politely. To me, professionally = politely yet directly.
And just an aside here: I understand that Craze is trying to "shock the developer" with his approach - and this approach certainly works for some people - but a lot of developers are equally defensive about their work and will turtle up when hot water is thrown at them. If I want a personal coach, it would be someone like Craze. I'd ask him to go all out. But that requires a certain type of person...someone with a high degree of ambition and thick skin, as well as someone with a sense of urgency about their work. Even on a site with high standards like RMN, those people are few and far between. And such coaching also runs the risk of being biased - it must be tied to what the developer is trying to do, even if the coach doesn't like it.
TL;DR - Craze's method works well for decent developers who are looking to take their hobby to the pro level, but only (1) if the criticism is tied to what the game is trying to do, and (2) if it's done one-on-one.
author=Max McGeean astonishingly large part of the world is dependent on personal outlook - positive or negative.I have actively refuted this hypothesis non-stop for the past fifteen years, since becoming aware of this point of view at Age 10.author=Deckiller
The only people who would disagree, Max, are those who think that we need "tough love". As one of the more "serious hobbyist" communities, we certainly want to offer constructive criticism...but we need to do it professionally. Hobbyists are going to work and develop at their own pace, and nobody is going to force them into something. If someone has aspirations to be a pro, then the criticism should be more intricate, but in no ways more brash/rude.
I hate to mention this because for some reason it has been an UNENDING SOURCE OF MOCKERY over the years for me. BUT--
I was in an environment of fiction workshops where everyone was (really stupidly!) paying tens of thousands of dollars to be there, learn from each other in workshopping, and eventually get a degree. As far as sharing criticism goes, this was as much of a SERIOUS BUSINESS environment as you could possibly get--CERTAINLY IT WAS MORE SERIOUS BUSINESS THAN RMN.
We were CONTINUOUSLY ENCOURAGED to be polite, respectful, and even-handed in our feedback. So "RMN is a serious hobbyist community" is a terrible argument for there being no need to be polite. This was professional training for people who are vocationally creative and have invested money in it. We were LESS HARSH than RMN.
It is preposterously fallacious to believe that "harsh" criticism is MORE effective. If I seriously wanted someone to consider what I was saying, I would take the effort to say it respectfully.
That's what I was saying, actually. We want to offer excellent and detailed feedback, but politely. To me, professionally = politely yet directly.
And just an aside here: I understand that Craze is trying to "shock the developer" with his approach - and this approach certainly works for some people - but a lot of developers are equally defensive about their work and will turtle up when hot water is thrown at them. If I want a personal coach, it would be someone like Craze. I'd ask him to go all out. But that requires a certain type of person...someone with a high degree of ambition and thick skin, as well as someone with a sense of urgency about their work. Even on a site with high standards like RMN, those people are few and far between. And such coaching also runs the risk of being biased - it must be tied to what the developer is trying to do, even if the coach doesn't like it.
TL;DR - Craze's method works well for decent developers who are looking to take their hobby to the pro level, but only (1) if the criticism is tied to what the game is trying to do, and (2) if it's done one-on-one.
