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CloseI agree with all of the points raised here. I don't honestly see why homosexuality is considered a defining trait in games or literature in general. People tend to fall into categories on their own (I don't know, is that me?) and I can almost easily catagorize a lot of people I have met, but that doesn't make them the same, not at all. As with everyone, there are lots of types of gays, lots of types of people. And if you look really hard you will find IRL stereotypes that people just naturally fall into without even doing anything.
On the subject of gay characters, the main character of Cosplay Crisis is bisexual (leaning towards guys) but it's never really covered not because I didn't have time but because it wasn't dreadfully important to the plot. When asked about his relationship with a female character, he says "it's complicated", but regular expresses his emotions and feelings to another male lead. You wouldn't really pick it up on a regular play-through without already knowing about Kumo's sexuality, but all in all it quite simply isn't a defining character trait. Kumo is bi *shrug*. Kumo is also lots of other things (like a dunderhead, ignorant, cocky, and a coffee addict) but unless they came up in the plot they weren't covered.
If we really want to start being ethnically and sexually diverse in games as a whole, we need to stop the mindset of seeing characters as objects and let them define themselves as people. If you're willing to let it happen, when you give a character a base and then work from that, you'll find they become their own person very quickly- whether they be straight, gay, female, male, black, white or purple.
On the subject of gay characters, the main character of Cosplay Crisis is bisexual (leaning towards guys) but it's never really covered not because I didn't have time but because it wasn't dreadfully important to the plot. When asked about his relationship with a female character, he says "it's complicated", but regular expresses his emotions and feelings to another male lead. You wouldn't really pick it up on a regular play-through without already knowing about Kumo's sexuality, but all in all it quite simply isn't a defining character trait. Kumo is bi *shrug*. Kumo is also lots of other things (like a dunderhead, ignorant, cocky, and a coffee addict) but unless they came up in the plot they weren't covered.
If we really want to start being ethnically and sexually diverse in games as a whole, we need to stop the mindset of seeing characters as objects and let them define themselves as people. If you're willing to let it happen, when you give a character a base and then work from that, you'll find they become their own person very quickly- whether they be straight, gay, female, male, black, white or purple.
Large
332
In my opinion, sex inclination really should have no influence in a character. Including gay characters is completely fine by me, as long as the intention is not "Guise, guise, I haz ghey chara in mah gam".
ganonfrog
1085
I don't have anything insightful to say about this subject that multiple people who have far more of a right to haven't said already.
However, I feel the need to point out that in the posts feed, a long string of responses to this thread were immediately followed by one on something called "allthegay.png".
However, I feel the need to point out that in the posts feed, a long string of responses to this thread were immediately followed by one on something called "allthegay.png".
tpasmall
228
author=SorceressKyrsty
If we really want to start being ethnically and sexually diverse in games as a whole, we need to stop the mindset of seeing characters as objects and let them define themselves as people. If you're willing to let it happen, when you give a character a base and then work from that, you'll find they become their own person very quickly- whether they be straight, gay, female, male, black, white or purple.
Much better said then what I was trying to say, but pretty much exactly what I was getting at. You are just more well spoken then I am, ha.
author=Large
In my opinion, sex inclination really should have no influence in a character. Including gay characters is completely fine by me, as long as the intention is not "Guise, guise, I haz ghey chara in mah gam".
Unless you're doing some very realistic scenario during old times where they rape the same sex as a show of power and those who got uh..."penetrated" are no longer fit to be a soldier and stuff.
Then yeah.
emmych
817
author=tpasmallauthor=CrazeI didn't think I was being touchy, I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind it. I have agreed from the beginning that diversity is nice, but I just don't understand how white/male automatically represents oppression. I feel that that is just as biased as saying a black/female character automatically represents a struggle against a racist and sexist world.
Stop being so touchy. It's nice to see other characters, and it's important for the sake of representation, but of course having a white male MC is not INSTANT AZKABAN.
If people are people, then white/male should be considered a part of diversity, both should be viewed equally and one shouldn't be favored over the other. If someone chooses white/male as it their lead, it should make no difference if you're truly aiming for equality.
I had this whole 'nuther long post typed up, but it was kind of rambling everywhere and not getting my point across well, so I'm just gonna say this. Yeah, white straight men are part of the diverse world we live in, but they do not represent every person that lives in it, so they should not be the hero in every single thing. It's okay if they are the hero, because, like I said, a person (or character!) is more than their traits. It's definitely not instant Azkaban if they're the hero!
But we do need to start putting different kinds of people in the lead, because when every single hero is a white man, that's not very diverse! I can easily list off 10 amazing characters that fit that mould, but if you asked me to think of 10 amazing female or non-straight or non-white or whatever lead characters, it'd take me a minute, and I might not be able to fill the list. I should be able to, and until I can, there are groups who are being unfairly represented, which is oppressive.
I don't really know how to explain this any better, so unless I find a dozen articles that are better at explaining this than I am, I'm done here.
author=Emmych
It's a problem because anyone who doesn't fit that exact mold is excluded and pushed to the sidelines. It's a problem because everyone defaults to it. Finally, it's a problem because what we see in the media will affect how we see people in real life...
Back in 2009, I didn't give my game a female/non-white/non-straight hero because that's just not how it's done. I later realized that was a stupid reason to do that and have since changed the two latter things...
...we do need to start putting different kinds of people in the lead, because when every single hero is a white man, that's not very diverse! ...there are groups who are being unfairly represented, which is oppressive.
This is a dangerous path to be walking... This kinda reminded me of that blog that Craze linked to some time ago, about girls on videogames and whatnot. The author, among other things, had effectively guilt-tripped herself for liking elves. She was like: "OMG! They're so white. So perfect! They're are the embodiment of all that is wrong with the world, but I can't help but liking them. How awful am I?" ...I mean, if you're going to harbor this kind of ideas to a point of being resentful towards imaginary things, you have already lost your battle.
Overall, I agree with the subject, and for the most part I don't mind how things are expressed. But some bits of rhetoric really throws me off about all this. Like the "What we see in media will affect how we see people in real life" argument. - The day we concede that to be true, videogames and all other forms of media would cease to exist. We would retreat back to our shells, afraid to do anything that could influence others in a negative way. No, just no. We don't make stuff for people who cannot tell apart reality from fiction...
Therefore, for main characters to be white, male, straight, christian, whatever. Cannot be called "oppressive" Not only it's an exaggeration, but it also delegitimizes real life problems. It's a wrong posture to have irl because how we perceive the world can truly influence others in various, even counterproductive ways... In order for this to stop being an issue, we should start seeing things for what they are, no more, and no less. Stories are stories; They're little self-contained universes. People are people; We're all part of the same world.
...Apologies in advance if this doesn't quite makes sense. But, uh, yeah. -_-
stardust
246
It really depends on how the character is introduced and handled (by the storywriter) and so on, but that goes for almost everything, not just homosexual characters.
In a very early draft of my own project I've had someone in the cast whose sexual preference was a little bit ambiguous, due to some hints. But I never really cared to put out something of an "official statement" about it. It was clear to me, that this character is gay, but I never really cared about explicitly stating it in the game like: "Have I mentioned that I'm gay today?". I've played a little bit with ambiguity, but I did that in order to raise interest about the past of this very character.
The reaction I got from it made me really think about the subject itself. Other users from the community (not this one ;) ) asked me if the character was actually gay and if I'm nuts about including a male gay character into the main cast - since younger people would have access to the game and so on, blah blah.
Since then I have the feeling that when it comes to gay characters, they're easily reduced to their sexuality. I mean if you really care about your characters and make an effort to flesh them out, their sexuality is just a very little part of the whole image. In most games it wouldn't even play a role (but sometimes, like in my project, it does, because of the romantic relationships involved ^^)
In a very early draft of my own project I've had someone in the cast whose sexual preference was a little bit ambiguous, due to some hints. But I never really cared to put out something of an "official statement" about it. It was clear to me, that this character is gay, but I never really cared about explicitly stating it in the game like: "Have I mentioned that I'm gay today?". I've played a little bit with ambiguity, but I did that in order to raise interest about the past of this very character.
The reaction I got from it made me really think about the subject itself. Other users from the community (not this one ;) ) asked me if the character was actually gay and if I'm nuts about including a male gay character into the main cast - since younger people would have access to the game and so on, blah blah.
Since then I have the feeling that when it comes to gay characters, they're easily reduced to their sexuality. I mean if you really care about your characters and make an effort to flesh them out, their sexuality is just a very little part of the whole image. In most games it wouldn't even play a role (but sometimes, like in my project, it does, because of the romantic relationships involved ^^)
some bits of rhetoric really throws me off about all this. Like the "What we see in media will affect how we see people in real life" argument. - The day we concede that to be true, videogames and all other forms of media would cease to exist. We would retreat back to our shells, afraid to do anything that could influence others in a negative way. No, just no. We don't make stuff for people who cannot tell apart reality from fiction...
THIS is the dangerous path to be walking. There are entire fields of study about how we interact with the media; even just a quick look at something like media psych or sociology in general is scratching the surface. Like what, you never read a book that made you think about something? Or saw a movie that influenced you in any way whatsoever? These are just things that every form of media can't do because it would cause the world to explode in a supernova of people clamming up and never making any kind of statements because what if people's fee-fees got hurt?
How do you think things like stereotypes exist? This one is definitely not a rhetorical question; how do stereotypes continue to exist? I guess going with the gay topic, where do people get the idea that gay dudes are feminine, lesbians butch, or any of the other common stereotypes you can vomit up? Hell, pick any minority group and the associated stereotypes! These things don't just fall out of the sky, and if you think you have NEVER bought into a stereotype or common misconception, you're deluding yourself.
Feel free to do a little mental exercise: If I asked you to write down the first 10 things you thought of if I mentioned, say, transexuals, what do you think most people would come up with? And where do you think they might get their ideas? I sure as hell doubt it'd be something even close to this or this. Replace transexuals with...I dunno, anything. Most people have specific mental images or ideas about certain groups of people, and these kinda assumptions can happen on an unconscious level.
As for "we should start seeing things for how they really are"...who defines reality here? And why do you think stories are their own self-contained universes that never have any effect on the REAL world? Off the top of my head, ever heard of The Jungle? Damn, just go spend some time looking here.
For the last time, it's not like you're gonna get arrested by the PC police for having some white straight dude as your protagonist. It probably won't even be commented on. There are plenty out there, but would it really kill people to try something different every now and then?
No but seriously, did you just wake up one day with how you view the world totally formed, 100% without outside influences? I will be shocked and awed, good sir.
emmych
817
author=PentagonBuddyI agree with everything Penta had to say just then, and I just wanna add my own little piece on to that.
THIS is the dangerous path to be walking.
I know she's asking you if you woke up one day with "how you view the world totally formed, 100% without outside influences", but I'm just gonna answer this for you: you didn't. You learned from your parents. You learned from your friends. You learned from your teachers. You learned from the TV. You learned from books. You learned from magazines. You learned from porn. You learn from everything you're exposed to every single day, and unless you are aware of this and seriously think about what you're exposed to, you will believe things that are untrue, that are unfair, and that are downright ignorant.
If you think that media is neither a reflection of society nor an influence on society, you are blindly accepting what society feeds you. You are not critically thinking about the world. It is important to think about what you watch, what you play, what you're told, and to form your own opinions and beliefs about it. When people don't, they allow ignorance to persist.
Studies about this and about that are moot at best. It's not like that sort of stuff falls under exact sciences, or does it? And quite frankly I don't know much on the subject so I'm not going there. =P
Now, I know stereotypes exist and persist... Do I have ever bought into an stereotype? Sure, to an extent. Ah! But do I let them rule the way I perceive the world? Of course not. This relates to what I was saying earlier about knowing the difference between fiction and reality. And the question is not WHO defines reality, but WHAT defines reality. Reality defines reality, not fiction... Look, Penta, many of those films you linked me to are documentaries, they're not exactly the kind of thing I had in mind when I say "fiction". Likewise, Emmych, not what your parents, friends, or teachers (you know, REAL people) or more legitimate sources of information, like books, could teach you; So I don't know where are you coming from with those arguments.
What I had in mind, and what I think is more akin to what you guys are advocating, is taking books like Tom Sawyer, off of the shelves just for depicting slavery. Or The catcher in the rye, because some lame dude shot that other cool dude... You can't be that concerned about works of fiction affecting people negatively, even if it's true. Those who let themselves be governed by prejudice are the lowest common denominator. We must not acknowledge them.
And don't wave your finger at me with this "Would it kill you some diversity?" plead. I'm not hating on the idea. The cast of my game is pretty diverse, actually. (theoretically speaking, though) But ultimately that kind of stuff makes no difference to me. Nor do I feel "oppressed" because my ethnicity, sexual orientation, or whatever, are not often/accurately portrayed in media. So, I'm sorry, I guess. I just cannot understand your point of view... Let's agree to disagree.
Edit: *Sigh* It's not like I didn't feel you guys were stretching my words as well. But that's why discussion is for, to clear things out...
Bailing out is cool too, though. After all, I guess both sides have our minds set anyway. =P
Now, I know stereotypes exist and persist... Do I have ever bought into an stereotype? Sure, to an extent. Ah! But do I let them rule the way I perceive the world? Of course not. This relates to what I was saying earlier about knowing the difference between fiction and reality. And the question is not WHO defines reality, but WHAT defines reality. Reality defines reality, not fiction... Look, Penta, many of those films you linked me to are documentaries, they're not exactly the kind of thing I had in mind when I say "fiction". Likewise, Emmych, not what your parents, friends, or teachers (you know, REAL people) or more legitimate sources of information, like books, could teach you; So I don't know where are you coming from with those arguments.
What I had in mind, and what I think is more akin to what you guys are advocating, is taking books like Tom Sawyer, off of the shelves just for depicting slavery. Or The catcher in the rye, because some lame dude shot that other cool dude... You can't be that concerned about works of fiction affecting people negatively, even if it's true. Those who let themselves be governed by prejudice are the lowest common denominator. We must not acknowledge them.
And don't wave your finger at me with this "Would it kill you some diversity?" plead. I'm not hating on the idea. The cast of my game is pretty diverse, actually. (theoretically speaking, though) But ultimately that kind of stuff makes no difference to me. Nor do I feel "oppressed" because my ethnicity, sexual orientation, or whatever, are not often/accurately portrayed in media. So, I'm sorry, I guess. I just cannot understand your point of view... Let's agree to disagree.
Edit: *Sigh* It's not like I didn't feel you guys were stretching my words as well. But that's why discussion is for, to clear things out...
Bailing out is cool too, though. After all, I guess both sides have our minds set anyway. =P
Why are you bringing censorship into this? Where did I say anything about taking anything away? Look I'm all about the addition, not the subtraction.
Like this is a pretty fruitless line of discussion, no, this isn't what I'm saying at all.
This is just gonna end in trashing the topic up uh...further than it already is, so PEACE OUT, YO
Like this is a pretty fruitless line of discussion, no, this isn't what I'm saying at all.
This is just gonna end in trashing the topic up uh...further than it already is, so PEACE OUT, YO
emmych
817
author=alteregoIf you don't know much on the subject, how can you make the assumption that the studies are moot? XD That's kind of ridiculous.
Studies about this and about that are moot at best. It's not like that sort of stuff falls under exact sciences, or does it? And quite frankly I don't know much on the subject so I'm not going there. =P
Also yes it does fall under a vast number of social sciences. If you don't know what those are, you should probably google them because they're kind of a really big area of study
author=alteregoAnd fiction is a reflection of our reality and our society, so, yes, actually, it does define our reality. People are exposed to different types of people through fiction, and if they've never met those types of people and their only frame of reference is what they see in fiction, that's what they're gonna believe is the truth unless they think about it.
Reality defines reality, not fiction...
But I can see that you entirely missed the point with that whole Catcher and the Rye thing (like...no, man, just no that wasn't what the point was at all), so yeah I'm peacing out of this line of discussion, too.
Sorry if I'm saying something that has been said before, but I haven't read everything etc.
People are talking about how a character doesn't have to be one-dimensional just because he's gay, and that gay people usually don't go flagging their sexuality like it's everybody's business. But there's a point to consider: there are quite a few characters in videogames that you can't even tell whether they're gay or straight, because they never talk about it. And that's fine.
So in theory, you could have a gay character and that would barely show, right? But what's the point? I think if you decide your character is going to be gay, that has to have some significant impact on story and characterization. He doesn't have to be all pink and queer, but having a gay character who never acts gay or talks about gay stuff is absurd.
People are talking about how a character doesn't have to be one-dimensional just because he's gay, and that gay people usually don't go flagging their sexuality like it's everybody's business. But there's a point to consider: there are quite a few characters in videogames that you can't even tell whether they're gay or straight, because they never talk about it. And that's fine.
So in theory, you could have a gay character and that would barely show, right? But what's the point? I think if you decide your character is going to be gay, that has to have some significant impact on story and characterization. He doesn't have to be all pink and queer, but having a gay character who never acts gay or talks about gay stuff is absurd.
fun fact: people want to rub genitals on or in other people
maybe characters should express interest in doing so to other beings
+5 stars, "engaging, mature characters"
(even I don't know if this post is sarcastic or not)
maybe characters should express interest in doing so to other beings
+5 stars, "engaging, mature characters"
(even I don't know if this post is sarcastic or not)
author=Craze
fun fact: people want to rub genitals on or in other people
maybe characters should express interest in doing so to other beings
What defines "gay" is pretty much to whom you want to do this, so if it's not indeed expressed by characters, who cares if they're gay?
author=Craze
fun fact: people want to rub genitals on or in other people
maybe characters should express interest in doing so to other beings
I want to say I agree with this but I have literally never seen this done without it coming across as extremely obnoxious. I suspect this is because most people do not understand subtlety or that affection can be expressed as anything other than physical acts or attraction.
Telia talking about how hot that girl's ass is doesn't make me think she's a bold, assertive character comfortable in her sexuality, it makes me think she's pandering to the audience with a lowest common denominator "GIRLS ARE HOT" approach.
Solitayre
Telia talking about how hot that girl's ass is doesn't make me think she's a bold, assertive character comfortable in her sexuality, it makes me think she's pandering to the audience with a lowest common denominator "GIRLS ARE HOT" approach.
karsu's fault entirely
I think all the fags running around my games are about 10x more subtle than Telia while still being comfortable and obvious.
emmych
817
author=calunio
He doesn't have to be all pink and queer, but having a gay character who never acts gay or talks about gay stuff is absurd.
This is acting under the ridiculous assumption that there is a way that gay people have to act and that there is a set of topics that gay people talk about
YO, CRAZE, HOW DO YOU FILL YOUR DAILY QUEER QUOTA?
I KNOW I FILL MINE BY WEARING COMBAT BOOTS AND LETTING MY BODY HAIR GROW WILD. SERIOUSLY HAVE YOU SEEN MY PUBES LATELY I'LL NEED A WEED WACKER TO HANDLE THOSE BAD BOYS
ALSO PUSSY IS DELICIOUS HAVE YOU TASTED THE DELICIOUS PUSSY THAT EXISTS OUT THERE IT IS WAY BETTER THAN DICK. LOOK OUT, LADIES, I AM COMING FOR YOUR QUIMS
ALSO MEN ARE TERRIBLE THEY SHOULD ALL DIE WE DON'T NEED THEM
I'M GOING TO GO PRAY TO THE GODDESS I'M A LITTLE BIT BEHIND IN BEING GAY TODAY NOW EXCUSE ME
and hey, on the otherhand...
HEY CALUNIO I NOTICED YOU WATCHED A MEAN GIRLS CLIP
THAT'S KIND OF GAY
YOU SHOULD PROBABLY GO DO SOMETHING STRAIGHT SO PEOPLE DON'T GET THE WRONG IDEA
SO GO BUY A MUSCLE CAR OR SLAP SOME LADIES' ASSES OR READ PLAYBOY OR DRINK SOME BEER OR SOMETHING
also after typing that up I realize that I totally didn't even need to all-caps to show you how ridiculous your statement was, ah-hahaha
