AN OFFICIAL *ENGLISH* VERSION OF 2K3 APPROACHES!

(This was me being stupid, ignore)

Rm2k3 has bugs and a lot of issues, but chances are you still used it, patches or no patches you still used it. And if you did then maybe you could sign the petition and buy the software, but no one is forcing you.

It's all in the flowchart really.



@Deckiller, Archeia_Nessiah, Gourd_Clae

Thanks!

author=iddalai
Really, I don't understand you people, if you've got nothing good to say then don't say nothing at all.

Double negative. "Don't say nothing" translates as "say something."

But considering the rest of your post, I see that as far from the truth. What you really want is to hear only praise for this idea. Sorry to burst your self-righteous bubble, but that's not going to happen. This is a forum where people can express their opinions, and frankly your flow chart means very little, considering how biased it is.

However, let me quote part of Liberty's initial post:

author=Liberty
Well, what can I say? There's a possibilty that Degica/EB! will look into creating an official English version of RM2K3 if there's enough demand for it. What do you all think? Should we embrace this momentous occasion that would allow us to use 2K3 legally? Would you pay for such a thing? Let your voices be heard!

I see nothing in the OP's post about expressing your views only if you like the idea. It clearly encourages an expression of opinion, so we'll continue to do so for as long as there is a discussion about it.

I don't really understand all this talk about legality when, in fact, EB never released anything else but a japanese version, maybe because they thought they wouldn't make any money in any other country and naturally, as a consequence, never gave a damn about the "pirated" version existing in all those other countries, "pirated" (I mean, what American or French or German would do with a japanese version of 2k3...?!) versions which they obviously could not ignore, OR AM I MISSING SOMETHING?

author=dragonheartman

author=Overload
If I sign this, will EB fix all the bugs this engine has?

Well, first off, nothing is guaranteed. We could get all the signatures in the world but in the end it's up to EB. Signatures show interest but I don't believe they are a guarantee of any action.

I'm imagining if they decide to re-release, they would fix the bugs. It's all about incentive to get people to buy their products. If they just translate it to English, what's the incentive in purchasing software that barely works on a modern OS?

In addition, when 2k3 was released back in 2003, there were various patches and fixes that went into the engine. I imagine with a proper, larger English community now, our complaints will speak much louder.

Enterbrain claims on their website that with a little dedication anyone can create an RPG. I completely agree. It's just that some people have so much dedication to their projects they aren't quite ready to upgrade to a new maker.

this is why it really sucks that 20xx bit it. The main thing that drew me to it was the idea that I would still be able to play my game years in the future. As it stands I probably won't even get it finished before computers stop being able to play it.

The reason I stick with 2k3 is that I've already got years invested into a project in it that can't be ported to anything else.

There are definitely pros and cons to this, and everybody will weigh in differently. I believe I've expressed my views clear enough as to why I think it's not worth it to me (yet), but others may have a different opinion depending on how they score the benefits.

For me, the pros are:
*Support for Degica
*A chance to come clean and own a legal copy
*Legally own the RTP for use in other makers or in commercial projects
*RM2K3 includes features not implemented (without scripts) in later makers such as side view battle system and the ability to dictate which Actors can use which items.
*At $20, it will be the cheapest maker you can purchase legally, which is a great alternative to the hefty asking price for VX-Ace.
*Easy to use, plus it encourages its users to think about event coding, versus relying on easy to add scripts.

Cons are:
*No scripting feature. Adding the plugs and patches which served a sort of scripting purpose is illegal.
*For $10 more you can upgrade to XP which includes the power of scripting.
*The 2K3 is no longer supported or updated. 2K Value continues to sell in Japan and fixes a lot of problems. Plus, VX-Ace is really similar in style to the 2K Value, and whatever it's lacking can be added with scripts.
*The maker is a decade old, and as such the resources and the maker are starting to show its age.
*No guarantee that any of the major bugs will be fixed prior to the English release.
*The majority of resources I've seen for 2K/3 are either off limits to other users or rips. Unlike other makers, there is an extreme lacking of original resources that can be used for commercial projects. This forces the user to make their own (assuming they have any artistic skills), steal other resources (not an option), or use illegal rips.
*Lack of tutorials compared to the newer makers.

Finally, some additional concerns:
Aside from bug fixes, which may or may not happen, what about those who choose not to buy a legal copy of this but still use their pirated versions? Will the communities begin enforcing piracy regulations and have these people banned? If so, then you risk losing a large chunk of your members who will scramble to go elsewhere but refuse to buy a legal copy? And if not, then how is it fair if somebody spends their $20 to make right with EB and Degica for a legal copy, and yet there is no reprimand for everybody else who continues to use a pirated version?

Anybody who currently makes a game with RM2K or 2K3 is already illegally using the resources. Not to mention that these resources (at least the audio) is very commonly used in RMXP and VX/Ace already. While illegal, it's allowed as long as you don't sell the game. So again, will the community risk banning members who use these resources illegally (whether or not the game is commercial) and lose a chunk of their membership base, or will they continue to turn a blind eye to what's going on, which in itself would make selling a legal copy of RM2K3 worthless to the one guy who wants to do what is right?

If I'm not selling my game, why should I buy a legal copy if the community is okay with everybody else's pirated version?

My point in this is for it to really work, for this thing to really take off, the communities will have to be on board with the idea and enforce rules against requesting and using pirated copies of RM2K3. Only then will this drive the necessity for RM2K3 users to go out and purchase a legal copy.

But a large number of the communities probably won't enforce this because they fear they will lose a major portion of their membership chain, and a community needs its members to survive. Unfortunately, a large portion of the membership in several communities already have and use illegal copies of RM2K3, and won't be buying a legal copy.

And that's the other thing that worries me. Our communities have a pretty decent thing going on with Degica now, that I'd hate to ruin the relationship over a disagreement. The world has come to accept that communities allow use of RM2K3 resources and games, and EB has decided to no longer try to prosecute its use. But if the communities aren't willing to support a legal copy of this by enforcing piracy laws in fear of losing their members, how does that support Degica? Will this create an even greater mess for future products?

Is Degica okay with continued use of pirated material when there is a legal copy that can be purchased?

Back in the old days, people didn't know better, since scripts didn't come along until XP. But the plugs and patches that came with this fixed some of the major issues that couldn't be fixed otherwise by just an event code. As for resources, yes, they do show their age. They are not compatible with the style of newer makers, as they clash terribly so and need to be updated. Some people have the ability to do this, but a lot of people do not.

Now this:

I would like to point out that the creation and use of resources designed for RM2K(3) and playing/distribution of games made in those engines aren't illegal in themselves barring specific licensing terms.

Theft is theft. If you are making a game off an illegal program and then distributing it for others to play, it's still illegal, and it is stealing since you never paid to have access to the engine or its resources. Now, that's not to say I'm not guilty of this myself, but I'm also not going to sugar coat it either.

As for:

You said yourself that this is "a chance to come clean and own a legal copy", isn't this reason enough to buy RM2K3 once it comes out in English? Why are we even discussing this? Are you implying that having access to an illegal version of RM2K(3) somehow constitutes ownership of that material?

I said it was one of the Pro's, but not necessarily a deciding one for me. I weigh the Pro's with the Con's, and I feel that the Con's still outweigh the decision.

Do I use 2K and 2K3? Certainly. Do I use it enough to care? No. Will I be willing to change my mind in the future and purchase this? Certainly, if they address the Con's which I have already laid out.

But now since everybody that's all for this wants to thrash everybody that's against it with comments about having a clean slate, supporting Degica, etc., let me ask you this. What happens if this doesn't go through? Will you be willing to finally drop the RM2K/3 tirade once and for all? Will stop using these programs, knowing that they are indeed illegal? Will you show your support for Degica by removing this "evil" program from your computer and go out and purchase a copy of their legal RPG Makers instead?

If you answer no to any of those questions, you really aren't any different than those against this idea.

Back in the old days, people didn't know better, since scripts didn't come along until XP. But the plugs and patches that came with this fixed some of the major issues that couldn't be fixed otherwise by just an event code.

I'd like to point out that most plugins/patches I had the pleasure of coming across were often unstable (RM2K's MP3 patch pre-Value! was particularly notorious for its instability) or brought along a crop of its own problems that made their use in actual production anything but practical. It's gotten better since then, but it's still far from usable as far as I care.

They are not compatible with the style of newer makers, as they clash terribly so and need to be updated.

You are talking about a difference in art styles and as far as I know art styles do not simply become "outdated" in need of an "update".

Theft is theft. If you are making a game off an illegal program and then distributing it for others to play, it's still illegal, and it is stealing since you never paid to have access to the engine or its resources. Now, that's not to say I'm not guilty of this myself, but I'm also not going to sugar coat it either.

I concede that you have a point with regards to games (though it's murky since the actual maker isn't included with the game), but your argument with regards to "RM2K3 resources" holds no water. I can look up the specifications or otherwise create by coincidence some piece of material abiding by RM2K(3)'s resource standards and distribute it without having actually purchased the engine because the material itself is just an ordinary .png file or whatever file type it is.

Just so I have you clear though, what exactly did you mean by "RM2K3 resources"? Did you mean strictly the RTP? Or are you referring to RM2K3 resources in general? I took it as the latter in writing my responses on the subject, but I'm starting to wonder if you actually meant the former and we just ended up mindgaming ourselves.

But now since everybody that's all for this wants to thrash everybody that's against it with comments about having a clean slate, supporting Degica, etc., let me ask you this. What happens if this doesn't go through? Will you be willing to finally drop the RM2K/3 tirade once and for all? Will stop using these programs, knowing that they are indeed illegal? Will you show your support for Degica by removing this "evil" program from your computer and go out and purchase a copy of their legal RPG Makers instead?

Will I buy RM2K Value! in Japanese? Yes, but only if it becomes more accessible: The only reason I haven't is because I am outside of Japan and purchasing it wouldn't be worth the extra time and money spent. If Degica were to simply sell a non-translated version of RM2K Value! over here, I'd buy that in an instant.

Regarding RM2K3, it is impossible for me to purchase it now since RM2K3 was pulled off the shelves; I will however grab it likewise with RM2K Value! if it becomes available again and/or this current petition fails.

As for whether I will get rid of my current copies? It's impractical of me to do so for various obvious reasons, but I am more than willing to pay my fair share if given the opportunity.

I was glad to see some flames ignite here.

I think a "do the right thing!!!" argument is grasping at some very flimsy straws. The "right thing" in this scenario would amount to a company making money off old crufty software so sinners can feel better about themselves.

"Nobody ever asked" is also a crock. EB's known that there's been a US following for their products for a good fifteen years. Their rampant incompetency doesn't really need excusing or blood money. And for the record, I would also be in favor of taking your money to give you some old software. All you need to do is ask!

Honestly there aren't any logical reasons to want this. There's newer and better products available. There are plenty of emotional issues caught up in this. Whether you feel this will help EB's bottomline (which disgusts me as EB has pissed away goodwill for years now), buying off your guilt or what, it boils down to if you want to give them $20. I've given $20 away for sillier reasons and most here probably have as well.

author=dragonheartman

author=WIP
Honestly there aren't any logical reasons to want this.

What would you say about those who have invested a decent amount of time into their 2k/3 projects? I understand there are better engines, but I want to finish something rather than start over.

The prospect of seeing the issues with 2k3 getting officially addressed (rather than hacked and patched over) is enough for me to support this.

That is, if that prospect is anything more than a pipe dream. Do we have any concrete information to tell that this wouldn't just be a 'translate and release' deal, should it go through?

I myself would enjoy an officially sanctioned and fixed/updated RM2k3, but realistic expectations lead me to believe this would just be a simple translation.

Signed it.