FEMALES AND GAMING - #1REASONWHY

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APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4158
So I am a fairly avid twitter nerd and I follow a bunch of gaming industry folk on Twitter, and a particular hashtag has been trending since last night/this morning - #1reasonwhy.

(There's a related article on Kotaku that sums it up well enough)

More or less, it's a discussion about why there aren't enough women in the gaming industry, what's wrong with that, and how it can be changed. It's an interesting conversation. The game industry is known for being heavily weighted towards men and only tangentially accommodating to women, and outright sexism is pretty common.

It's depressing that the gaming industry - a technology-based, future-thinking group of people - still suffers from a glut of old-school sexism. More women in gaming would be nothing but good for games in general. It would allow for different perspectives and new kinds of games, it would bring fresh thought to AAA companies accused of creative stagnation daily, and it would make playing games even more widely acknowledged as a legitimate pastime and as a form of art worthy of critical analysis.

A final thought: when the industry suffers from this kind of sexism, so too does the audience.

---

So... thoughts? Ever seen examples of this? I don't really know what I can do, as a guy, to stop it, besides... not being sexist, but I figured bringing it up to talk about it must do some good, right?
Sailerius
did someone say angels
3214
I think it's a little too hasty to just point the finger at sexism as the cause rather than looking at the issue analytically.

The issue isn't unique to the game industry. The general field of software engineering is vastly male-dominated and the cause of this has been the subject of considerable research. Is it discrimination in hiring practices? Harassment by coworkers? Is the industry itself just filled with sexist thought and behavior?

No, the problem is that, for some reason, girls just don't like programming. Lots of young boys dream of being computer programmers or game developers, but for some reason, it's just not a career that young girls aspire to. What do you do about that? It's a pretty complex issue.

That's not to say that there isn't discrimination in the industry itself, but I think that's a symptom rather than the root cause. In any industry where a minority is underrepresented, they're going to be discriminated against. The most effective way to combat that is to increase that minority's representation.
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
A lot of women have been harassed or chased out of the gaming industry by such unbelievably horrifying misogynistic threats and personal attacks that it makes me ashamed to be part of the human race.
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APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
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author=Sailerius
Lots of young boys dream of being computer programmers or game developers, but for some reason, it's just not a career that young girls aspire to. What do you do about that? It's a pretty complex issue.

This is absolutely true. However, I believe this ultimately comes back to "when the industry suffers from this kind of sexism, so too does the audience."

Young girls don't have a lot of choice - they are playing games about boys, made by men. There are very few female heroes, in games themselves, or in the gaming industry. I remember how much I gushed respect for Miyamoto growing up, but imagine being a girl and looking for a role model who makes video games! Thus, not as many girls enter the industry, and the cycle continues. It's a problem that has to be approached from several angles.

author=Solitayre
A lot of women have been harassed or chased out of the gaming industry by such unbelievably horrifying misogynistic threats and personal attacks that it makes me ashamed to be part of the human race.

There's a lot of things that embarrass me about the human race. I have no idea what I can do about it personally besides pointing it out.
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
Look up Jennifer Hepler or Anita Sarkeesian for examples of what happens when men little boys feel like their sacred gaming realm has been invaded by girls and their cooties.
Caz
LET'SBIAN DO THIS.
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author=slashphoenix
Young girls don't have a lot of choice - they are playing games about boys, made by men. There are very few female heroes, in games themselves, or in the gaming industry.


This depends on age. What you're forgetting is that young girls and young boys aren't actually very different. Do you remember being that focused on gender when you were young? I certainly wasn't. As a 3-year-old girl, I had hella respect for Duke Nukem giving those nice ladies money all the time and shooting pig-cops. It didn't matter to me who was who or what gender anyone was, because they were just cool people. Gender is not an issue, and I don't think there's any kind of secret sexism going on in the gaming industry that is purposefully shutting women out (save for the dicks Soli mentioned).

I sort of disliked a lot of female main characters because they seemed presumptuous and threw themselves into the role a bit too hard, like they were trying so bad to be this revolutionary anti-gender-stereotype farce that everyone is so obsessed with. In my opinion, there is no sexism anymore. Sure, there'll be the occasional person who blows up a huge fuss over it, but it's usually just verbal. Don't forget that there are sexist stereotypes about men too. Like how do you think guys feel, having to aspire to be some meatheaded oaf with biceps the size of his head and more bullets than sense?

I'm sorry if this seems slightly insensitive, but I think equality has already been achieved in the most important areas of society (such as the workplace).
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
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author=Caz
Like how do you think guys feel, having to aspire to be some meatheaded oaf with biceps the size of his head and more bullets than sense?
But the difference is that's awesome. But then again, chainmail bikinis and giant boobs are awesome too. So maybe the difference is I don't mind being shunted into a predefined role as long as it's awesome. I wouldn't want to have to aspire to bake casseroles and raise kids, I can totally sympathize with that part. But video game female characters aren't like that, are they? They're usually pretty badass and sexy. The ones I pay attention to, anyway.
harmonic
It's like toothpicks against a tank
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I've found that when discussing sexism in games, it has little to do with the games themselves. No one *really* cares that much about chainmail bikinis and boobs.

Articles like this focus on the wrong issue. Games don't sell less because there's a female protagonist, there are other factors.

If there is sexism, it's in the attitude toward female gamers and female game industry professionals themselves.
slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
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author=Caz
I sort of disliked a lot of female main characters because they seemed presumptuous and threw themselves into the role a bit too hard, like they were trying so bad to be this revolutionary anti-gender-stereotype farce that everyone is so obsessed with.

This is a good point. It may just be me, but every female main character shouldn't have to continuously remind the audience "I'm a female and isn't that cool"? Mario and Link don't have to do it, Cloud doesn't do that. I don't see many games that stars females but doesn't make a show of it.

Men do deal with stereotypes like that, but I don't find them offensive as much as just plain boring. Take Marcus Phoenix, he likes guns and shooting aliens, and he is not an interesting character. It's a boring, boring stereotype. It's a cheap power fantasy - which everyone enjoys once in a while - but not what every game should be.

author=harmonic
If there is sexism, it's in the attitude toward female gamers and female game industry professionals themselves.

I think macho men characters are a result of so many male developers, and I agree that a large portion of the problem lies within the industry, where women are often treated poorly. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with oversexualized men or women, but there is something wrong when that's the vast majority of games.

Just a side-note: In Ben Kuchera's original article, he discusses his discovery that games with female main heroes are treated as "niche" and are typically given much less marketing funds than other games, which may lead to their limited success... again, the blame falls on old-fashioned publishers and industry.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I wonder how many games actually have male main characters

I bet it's actually less than half, simply because so many games don't have main characters at all, and so many games let you create your own character. Like, almost every rhythm, sports, puzzle, racing, strategy, simulation, WRPG, and MMORPG, is gender-neutral, along with some fighting games and some action-adventure games. So you'd think the ratio of female to male gamers, and thus aspiring game designers, and thus game designers, in those genres, would be roughly equal. Except maybe sports.
Ah, I heard of this along with a story of a woman who was forced out of the industry because of rape and murder threats. If I could guess why, it's because some men are just assholes like that. Force your way in women! Gogogo

I've seen plenty of awesome heroines though. I think. Like, Lightning and Luca/Marle, Monica, Yuna (personal opinion), Terra? Not all are THE main character, but very prominent nonetheless.
Dudesoft
always a dudesoft, never a soft dude.
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I agree there should be more women in the game industry. Maybe then we could have Lara Croft with a complex story instead of, "oh well, she was raped so that's why she's badass". -clinks beers with bros- "Job well done, gents."
Ocean
Resident foodmonster
11991
Yeah I got home and found this was a trending topic in twitter, but didn't really have the chance to check it out. I was inspired though and decided to make a tumblr post not on the topic of sexism (Which I know for a fact exists in a big way and really sucks that it does) but just showing various women who work in the game industry (japanese right now, western can be another post)
http://oceansdreams.tumblr.com/post/36713527981/feature-women-working-in-the-game-industry
Well, im a girl myself, and i used to take computer programming. : p i loved computer programming actually... And i was the top in my class, haha.

... but yea, i did end up leaving. It was really kinda a combination of things though, i guess.
- i just didnt have as much knowledge about games as the guys in the class, so i couldnt really relate to any of them.. :(
- yea, it was a bit sexist. We even watched sexist movies..
- peer pressure that its not rly mainstream + other girls cant relate to being a programmer, game dev, etc. So even if u do have problems, u cant rly talk about them..
- mainly just felt kind of lonely + tbh, i always finished scripts 2-3x faster than the guys/class. :-s

Also, random fact: the creator/ceo of halo is a soccer mom and the second-in-command is also a mom.
author=Caz
author=slashphoenix
Young girls don't have a lot of choice - they are playing games about boys, made by men. There are very few female heroes, in games themselves, or in the gaming industry.
I sort of disliked a lot of female main characters because they seemed presumptuous and threw themselves into the role a bit too hard, like they were trying so bad to be this revolutionary anti-gender-stereotype farce that everyone is so obsessed with. In my opinion, there is no sexism anymore. Sure, there'll be the occasional person who blows up a huge fuss over it, but it's usually just verbal. Don't forget that there are sexist stereotypes about men too. Like how do you think guys feel, having to aspire to be some meatheaded oaf with biceps the size of his head and more bullets than sense?



Perhaps the reason you disliked those females so much is because they were men's take on a female protagonist. Sure, there are some awesome ones out there but a lot of them were written from the point of view of the men developers, so... Men can't truly understand a woman's mind. Not really.
harmonic
It's like toothpicks against a tank
4142
author=Liberty
so... Men can't truly understand a woman's mind. Not really.


See, if we're going to be truly non-bigoted, statements like this shouldn't be uttered. Sometimes men can and do understand a woman's mind, and sometimes we fail, probably just as often as vice versa.

My production team works to understand the (older) female gamer's mind on a daily basis and we've got it down to a formula or an art using a 60/40% male/female ratio on the team.

That's just a pet peeve - using a thread about bigotry and then turning around and saying something stereotypical about someone else.
men and women are still both humans, with minds that are far more similar than not.
author=kentona
men and women are still both humans, with minds that are far more similar than not.

What?!?! No, that can't be. I was certain women were of a different species entirely D:
I’ve personally received a sickening amount of death and rape threats for the extremely few times I’ve surfaced here (My personal favourite is ‘how often did you have to suck kentona’s cock to get that piece of shit on the front page’). Although you could argue some of those events were sparked by other factors, and the threats were just a convenient touchstone. Which still doesn’t exactly help matters any. I’m sure it must be a daily occurrence for some other female members.

This is a bit tangential from the real topic (women within the industry), and I know nothing good will come of it, but, whatever. I typed it up and don’t feel like deleting it. This community isn’t exactly stellar when it comes to decent female characters and subtle sexism. The recent banners for Rainbow Nightmare and Love and War are both pretty much impossible to miss and seem to solely scream ‘tiiiiiittts’, and let’s just say that numerous of the Pics of the Moment tend to have a similar focus. I’ve seen multiple game profiles here based wholly around beating women and just blatantly being as misogynistic as possible. NicoB manages to call pretty much every single female character in every single RM game he plays a ‘dirty whore’. It’s supposed to be a joke, but the very fact he does it at all is quite indicative. I’m not saying that all of this is actively offensive, but it’s all these little niggling things that are absolutely everywhere. And I find that these things kind of discredit these characters and their creators.

And let me just say that it’s ridiculous trying to say that negative male stereotypes somehow justifies or negates what happens to women.
author=Trolololol
I’ve personally received a sickening amount of death and rape threats for the extremely few times I’ve surfaced here (My personal favourite is ‘how often did you have to suck kentona’s cock to get that piece of shit on the front page’).


I checked your profile, and I believe this has got to be a joke... :-?