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OUT OF CONTROL COPS - A SERIOUS PROBLEM IN AMERICA
Posts
Max McGee
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CloseCops in America are beating, torturing, and killing people without repercussions. The officers responsible for killing American citizens--including the elderly and children--have often not even been indicted for a crime. Many of the victims--a truly disproportionate amount--have been minorities. But even in cases where the victims were not minorities, the officers involved were often not even indicted. In the cases where the victims were minorities, a vile narrative has emerged from the political right--the traditional "no matter what" defenders of the boys in blue--portraying the victims as "thugs" who deserved it.
Deputy Who Choked Student Gets To Retire, Won’t Face Charges
Here are some of the "highlights" from this unbelievable parade of sickening injustice after sickening injustice. I feel bad even putting them in a list, because each one is a tragedy, and because of that old Stalin quote about how tragedies, when sufficiently quantized, become statistics. But the thing is...the fact that there isn't just one or two really reflects the seriousness of the problem. As does the geographical distribution of the problem. This shit is happening EVERYWHERE.
I have to stop there because if I can't leave off with "COP THROWS GRENADE AT ACTUAL BABY, WALKS AWAY SCOTT FREE" I don't know if I'll ever be able to stop.
Except where otherwise indicated, all victims were African American. Some of these things were racially motivated violence or just awful, sadistic acts of cruelty by the people who are supposed to SERVE AND PROTECT us. Others were clearly accidents. But in all cases there is one unifying thread...a TOTAL lack of appropriate accountability and consequences for destroying human lives.
I. Feel. Sick.
What has lead to the complete impunity with which police officers murder American citizens? And what can be done to stop it?
Deputy Who Choked Student Gets To Retire, Won’t Face Charges
Here are some of the "highlights" from this unbelievable parade of sickening injustice after sickening injustice. I feel bad even putting them in a list, because each one is a tragedy, and because of that old Stalin quote about how tragedies, when sufficiently quantized, become statistics. But the thing is...the fact that there isn't just one or two really reflects the seriousness of the problem. As does the geographical distribution of the problem. This shit is happening EVERYWHERE.
- Kimani Gray - 16 Years Old. Shot four times in the front and side of his body and three times in the back by two NYPD officers as he left a friend's birthday party in Brooklyn on March 9, 2013. The pigs responsible faced no criminal charges.
- Kelly Thomas - 37 Years Old. Homeless. Schizophrenic. White. Tazed, tortured, and beaten to death by a gang of Fullerton California police officers. He cried and screamed for his father as they were torturing him to death. This is what was left of him when the pigs were done having their fun.
Warning: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC!!!
Officers were actually charged this time, with second-degree murder, involuntary manslaughter, and excessive force. All of the pigs charged plead non-guilty. All of the pigs charged were found not guilty: charges were not even pursued against the third pig, based on that.
- Victor Steen - 17 Years Old. Riding his bicycle when he was drive-by tasered and then run over along with his bicycle by a cop car in Pensacola, Florida. The link above is a video from the patrol car camera where you can actually watch this happen. The judge ruled that no crime had been commited.
- Tamir Rice - 12 Years Old. Playing with a realistic looking airsoft gun in a public park when he was shot to death by police. For those who might suggest race was not a factor here, I personally have been playing with realistic looking airsoft guns in public parks with all of my friends AS AN ADULT every weekend for five years now. Neither I nor any of my friends have been shot. Most of us are white. And none of us, thank God, were in Cleveland. It remains to be seen whether the pigs in question will be charged. Anything is possible.
- Aiyana Jones - 7 Year Old Girl. Shot and killed as she slept in her home. The pig who shot her walked free of a misdemeanor charge for her death.
- John Crawford - 20 Years Old. Murdered by police in an Ohio Wal-Mart because he was carrying a toy gun. A grand jury refused to indict the pigs who murdered him.
- Kenneth Chamberlain Sr. - 68 Year Old USMC Veteran. Murdered in his home while it was being forcibly entered by racist White Plains, NY Police Department officers. Wearing nothing but boxer shorts, unarmed, with his hands at his sides, he was tasered twice by police, then shot twice at point blank range with a shotgun loaded with beanbag rounds, then finished off with a 9mm Glock. I have seen the 20 minute long video recording of the taser-cam leading up to his death. In his last moment after being tased the hardass and mentally ill old Marine screamed at the officers to shoot him some more. Clearly, they thought it would be best to oblige. The pigs who murdered him were not charged because a grand jury minutes from my home town refused to indict.
- Dymond Milburn. A 12 year old girl. Kidnapped, thrown in a van, and severely beaten by cops that said she was a prostitute. I'm not sure if the officers were ever charged but SHE was subsequently arrested and tried for resisting arrest and assaulting a police officer. Making this child beating pig kidnapper--who I'm going to guess is also at least an attempted child rapist too--the biggest pussy ass coward in the history of pigs. He pressed charges on a 12 year old girl for assault. So in addition to being a horrifying monster acting under color of law...he is also obviously a little bitch.
- Eric Garner - 44. Suffocated to death by multiple NYPD officers for the crime of selling loose cigarettes. The pigs responsible were not indicted by a grand jury.
- Cassandra Feurstein - 47. White. A pig shoved her face first into a concrete bench in a jail cell because he was pissed off. Her face was shattered and had to be reconstructed with a titanium plate. The entire incident was caught on tape. The pig in question plead down to official misconduct, and was charged with probation.
- Bounkham Phonesavanh - 1 Year Old Toddler. Asian, presumably? Looked white. Not that his race actually matters for any reason. He was a BABY. An adorable little BABY. The police officer that threw a flash grenade into his crib--which exploded and burned the toddler's face off--was not indicted.
I have to stop there because if I can't leave off with "COP THROWS GRENADE AT ACTUAL BABY, WALKS AWAY SCOTT FREE" I don't know if I'll ever be able to stop.
Except where otherwise indicated, all victims were African American. Some of these things were racially motivated violence or just awful, sadistic acts of cruelty by the people who are supposed to SERVE AND PROTECT us. Others were clearly accidents. But in all cases there is one unifying thread...a TOTAL lack of appropriate accountability and consequences for destroying human lives.
I. Feel. Sick.
What has lead to the complete impunity with which police officers murder American citizens? And what can be done to stop it?
I am of the opinion that body cameras on all cops all the time is something everyone seems to want. That would solve a lot of issues on both sides of the issue.
The opinion of a true "self righteous fuckwit"
The opinion of a true "self righteous fuckwit"
author=harmonic
That would solve a lot of issues on both sides of the issue.
I'm scared it wouldn't.
I mean it's a good first step...but if you look at Victor Steen, Kenneth Chamberlain Sr., Cassandra Feurstein...all of those were caught on camera. The camera didn't deter the cops from acting wrongly or enable their prosecution!
If we are going to constantly discuss this in thread after thread after thread, I think it behooves us to examine the state of the police as an organization. Now, not all societies have had a police force and in general, a civil police force is a relatively modern concept. Up until as little as half a millennium ago, policing was done by military organizations and private militias. As such, there has never been a real, dedicated standard for what constitutes proper policing. The point of a police force is obvious; to provide a law enforcement office that is a sympathetic part of the community. Obviously, this idea isn't working as originally planned.
Killing people causes stress. Often, police can't even go back to work once they've taken a life. They're too afraid of being put in that position again. I recently saw a video of a police officer killing an unarmed man in which the officer was unquestionably justified. The victim was in a suicidal state of mind and pretended to reach for a weapon. Anarchist websites edited the video to make it look as if the officer had shot an unsuspecting victim in the back. The full video with audio told the truth. The officer can be heard in the video crying, asking the dying, comatose suspect what he was reaching for as paramedics worked on him.
Stress causes reactionary responses; so called "knee-jerk reaction". The police force replaced the military for a very important reason: military forces are trained to combat enemies and deal with civilians in such a manner. This was what led to the formation of our Second Amendment. The purpose of that well regulated militia was to prevent our nation from becoming the host of a standing army. To this end nobody is above the law.
Today, the way the law stands, police are above the law. If a police officer rapes a woman at gun point, which does commonly occur, and she hits him in the head with a rock, killing him, she is charged with, and will likely be convicted of, murdering a police officer.
The police are militarized now. They use weapons that were intended for military use and gear intended for military use, and they are not trained in the use of military weapons and gear to the extent that the military is. Yet they are trained to think of the civilian population as an enemy force. The standing army our laws were written to prevent now occupies this nation.
In 1992, Rodney Glenn King III was filmed being beaten by cops in Los Angeles. A grand jury chose not to indict those four police officers, leading to the LA riots. The result of those riots was not a better understanding between police and community. In 1983, when I was three years old, a construction worker tried to kill me and my mother. My father shot him in the arm. He was convicted of attempted murder. In 1989, my father was transferred to San Diego, California and the Missouri Department of Corrections granted permission for him to move out of state. In 1992, the judge literally changed his mind and violated my father's probation. My father was arraigned and was put in a Los Angeles holding cell to await transfer to Missouri when the LA riots broke out. Police lined up inmates and were simply going to execute them, and then claim that the prisoners rioted. After several prisoners pointed out that their wounds wouldn't match wounds incurred in a riot, many of the officers got cold feet, ending their plans. This should give you fair idea of what kind of people the LA police are. So what was the outcome of the LA riots? A nationwide ban on filming police in the line of duty; essentially, an end to the very purpose behind our First Amendment, a ban that only two years ago was ruled unconstitutional by the Massachusetts Supreme Court after an incident in Boston.
What will come of these protests? A national police force; a true standing army. And people will blame the protesters. I've linked in the other post to video of SWAT teams starting fires in Ferguson, fires that were blamed on protesters. Even news reporters at the time noted how coordinated the fires were, speculating that a separate group from the protesters were causing them. Of course, the police couldn't possibly be doing it, could they?
They say this problem is systemic. It runs much deeper. I have personally witnessed police officer receiving drugs from the military, distribute those drugs to dealers, arrest the buyers, and then come back for their cut.
Killing people causes stress. Often, police can't even go back to work once they've taken a life. They're too afraid of being put in that position again. I recently saw a video of a police officer killing an unarmed man in which the officer was unquestionably justified. The victim was in a suicidal state of mind and pretended to reach for a weapon. Anarchist websites edited the video to make it look as if the officer had shot an unsuspecting victim in the back. The full video with audio told the truth. The officer can be heard in the video crying, asking the dying, comatose suspect what he was reaching for as paramedics worked on him.
Stress causes reactionary responses; so called "knee-jerk reaction". The police force replaced the military for a very important reason: military forces are trained to combat enemies and deal with civilians in such a manner. This was what led to the formation of our Second Amendment. The purpose of that well regulated militia was to prevent our nation from becoming the host of a standing army. To this end nobody is above the law.
Today, the way the law stands, police are above the law. If a police officer rapes a woman at gun point, which does commonly occur, and she hits him in the head with a rock, killing him, she is charged with, and will likely be convicted of, murdering a police officer.
The police are militarized now. They use weapons that were intended for military use and gear intended for military use, and they are not trained in the use of military weapons and gear to the extent that the military is. Yet they are trained to think of the civilian population as an enemy force. The standing army our laws were written to prevent now occupies this nation.
In 1992, Rodney Glenn King III was filmed being beaten by cops in Los Angeles. A grand jury chose not to indict those four police officers, leading to the LA riots. The result of those riots was not a better understanding between police and community. In 1983, when I was three years old, a construction worker tried to kill me and my mother. My father shot him in the arm. He was convicted of attempted murder. In 1989, my father was transferred to San Diego, California and the Missouri Department of Corrections granted permission for him to move out of state. In 1992, the judge literally changed his mind and violated my father's probation. My father was arraigned and was put in a Los Angeles holding cell to await transfer to Missouri when the LA riots broke out. Police lined up inmates and were simply going to execute them, and then claim that the prisoners rioted. After several prisoners pointed out that their wounds wouldn't match wounds incurred in a riot, many of the officers got cold feet, ending their plans. This should give you fair idea of what kind of people the LA police are. So what was the outcome of the LA riots? A nationwide ban on filming police in the line of duty; essentially, an end to the very purpose behind our First Amendment, a ban that only two years ago was ruled unconstitutional by the Massachusetts Supreme Court after an incident in Boston.
What will come of these protests? A national police force; a true standing army. And people will blame the protesters. I've linked in the other post to video of SWAT teams starting fires in Ferguson, fires that were blamed on protesters. Even news reporters at the time noted how coordinated the fires were, speculating that a separate group from the protesters were causing them. Of course, the police couldn't possibly be doing it, could they?
They say this problem is systemic. It runs much deeper. I have personally witnessed police officer receiving drugs from the military, distribute those drugs to dealers, arrest the buyers, and then come back for their cut.
author=Max McGeeauthor=harmonicI'm scared it wouldn't.
That would solve a lot of issues on both sides of the issue.
I mean it's a good first step...but if you look at Victor Steen, Kenneth Chamberlain Sr., Cassandra Feurstein...all of those were caught on camera. The camera didn't deter the cops from acting wrongly or enable their prosecution!
It would, at the very least, help some (or not hurt) and would be inexpensive. The greater issue would seem to be with the justice system protecting its own (prosecutors spiking cases) and a weird trust in law enforcement. I think that with body cameras running all the time, a side effect you would see would be a decrease in the implicit trust a good percentage of citizens have in law enforcement. It's hard to say "he's a cop why would he lie <_>" when everything is caught on tape. of course, this change in thinking would be slow and gradual.
I think the greater problem is in the failings of the grand jury system. We've seen that a prosecutor can basically play fast and loose and get no indictment if they want, regardless of the facts around the case. another problem would be the fact that grand jury members aren't vetted like members of a regular jury, so you could easily end up with mentally ill racist #67 deciding the fate of someone. not to mention the total lack of transparency in a grand jury.
i don't know how to fix this short of abolishing the grand jury system altogether. all of the damning evidence points to the system as it is merely being another tool for the prosecution, who can dominate everything and basically destroy whatever legitimacy the process had. if you read the transcripts of the wilson jury, the way the prosecutor told the jurors under what circumstances they could indict was completely circuitous and disgusting, considering that jurors don't have a background in law. removing the grand jury system so that the prosecutor is directly responsible for bringing someone to a trial and thus removing the prosecutor's ability to say "hey, what could I do, it was the decision of the grand jury (that i can manipulate to do whatever i want xD) is the best solution i can see.
if that is too dramatic, making it so each state provides the grand jury with an attorney to act as a buffer between the jurors and the prosecutor might also work.
author=pianotm
If we are going to constantly discuss this in thread after thread after thread...
It seemed too important NOT to discuss.
author=pianotm
Up until as little as half a millennium ago, policing was done by military organizations and private militias. As such, there has never been a real, dedicated standard for what constitutes proper policing
I feel like 500 years is a long enough time to generate a consensus on what constitutes proper policing. I mean while it is certainly vague even the slogan emblazoned on police cars represents what they should be doing: TO PROTECT AND SERVE.
author=pianotm
Killing people causes stress. Often, police can't even go back to work once they've taken a life. They're too afraid of being put in that position again. I recently saw a video of a police officer killing an unarmed man in which the officer was unquestionably justified. The victim was in a suicidal state of mind and pretended to reach for a weapon. Anarchist websites edited the video to make it look as if the officer had shot an unsuspecting victim in the back. The full video with audio told the truth. The officer can be heard in the video crying, asking the dying, comatose suspect what he was reaching for as paramedics worked on him.
It seems clear to me that this kind of humanizing compassion is the exception rather than the rule, especially if you look at the actions and reactions of some of the cops caught on tape in the above cases (Victor Steen, Kenneth Chamberlain). In some cases these cops not only don't seem like emotionally fraught from killing a human being, they don't even seem like they're scared they're going to get in trouble.
There is definitely an "us versus them" mentality at play where cops seem to regard everyone else as "the enemy" until proven otherwise.
author=pianotm
What will come of these protests? A national police force; a true standing army. And people will blame the protesters. I've linked in the other post to video of SWAT teams starting fires in Ferguson, fires that were blamed on protesters. Even news reporters at the time noted how coordinated the fires were, speculating that a separate group from the protesters were causing them. Of course, the police couldn't possibly be doing it, could they?
I want to say that this sounds like a conspiracy theory, but honestly the world right now scares me shitless so much it's hard to dismiss anything.
author=CAVE
The greater issue would seem to be with the justice system protecting its own (prosecutors spiking cases) and a weird trust in law enforcement.
Yeah I just don't fucking get this. Like...why the fuck do people--does ANYONE-- trust cops? I have held an instinctive distrust of cops since I was old enough to think about it, and shit, I'm white.
author=CAVE
I think that with body cameras running all the time, a side effect you would see would be a decrease in the implicit trust a good percentage of citizens have in law enforcement. It's hard to say "he's a cop why would he lie <_>" when everything is caught on tape. of course, this change in thinking would be slow and gradual.
In the Cunningham case you can faintly hear the cops saying "switch it off, switch it off" right before the taser camera "malfunctions". They kill him seconds later, I believe. So any body camera would need to be a device that the cops didn't have the ability to disable, disarm, switch off or easily break. And tampering with it should be a felony in and of itself with an automatic sentence of years of jail time.
That law seems distressingly unlikely to pass in a country where we can't even like ban assault weapons without congress shitting the bed.
author=CAVE
i don't know how to fix this short of abolishing the grand jury system altogether. all of the damning evidence points to the system as it is merely being another tool for the prosecution, who can dominate everything and basically destroy whatever legitimacy the process had. if you read the transcripts of the wilson jury, the way the prosecutor told the jurors under what circumstances they could indict was completely circuitous and disgusting, considering that jurors don't have a background in law. removing the grand jury system so that the prosecutor is directly responsible for bringing someone to a trial and thus removing the prosecutor's ability to say "hey, what could I do, it was the decision of the grand jury (that i can manipulate to do whatever i want xD) is the best solution i can see.
Well in this case what stops the prosecutor from just...deciding not to indict because they don't feel like it?
I feel like there has to be some kind of separation that can be made between prosecutors and the police because right now they feel much MUCH too chummy.
Anyway what is the deal with grand juries exactly? Like how are they meaningfully different from normal non-grand juries? I honestly don't know much about the finer points of criminal law.
nurvuss
958
author=harmonic
I am of the opinion that body cameras on all cops all the time is something everyone seems to want. That would solve a lot of issues on both sides of the issue.
The opinion of a true "self righteous fuckwit"
hello there
but even when these things do get caught on tape, cops are very unlikely to be indicted. tha's just wthe way the justice system works in america. it's like the mafia.
In the Cunningham case you can faintly hear the cops saying "switch it off, switch it off" right before the taser camera "malfunctions". They kill him seconds later, I believe. So any body camera would need to be a device that the cops didn't have the ability to disable, disarm, switch off or easily break. And tampering with it should be a felony in and of itself with an automatic sentence of years of jail time.
in the UK, as i understand it, it's not an easy process to just switch their body cameras off. and there, if the camera is off during an arrest, they are suspended and subject to review. i do feel like the punishment for the camera being off would have to be harsher in the united states.
Well in this case what stops the prosecutor from just...deciding not to indict because they don't feel like it?
make all decisions to indict or not indict subject to an overseeing body. or just adopt the inquisitorial system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisitorial_system
the bottom line is that the grand jury as it now exists is a useless holdover. the overwhelming majority of regular citizens are indicted while the number of police officers indicted is nil. what's the point. as for how a grand jury differs:
as for how grand juries are different
- they aren't vetted
- there's no judge. just the prosecutor. no other attorney
- there's no requirement to give them any instruction on the law
- also the whole thing is conducted behind closed doors. everything about the wilson jury being released was an exception to the rule
author=pianotm
Yet they are trained to think of the civilian population as an enemy force.
That seems to be one of the biggest issues from my viewpoint; police forces in recent times have trouble distinguishing the types and levels of criminal offense, and from a lot of these cases, the cops in question just seem to think beating the shit out of and killing the criminal can be justified for any level of crime, even if the person did something relatively harmless or, in the Bounkham case, was basically just THERE, doing absolutely nothing and was killed because of some set of standards. I'm not saying to lay off the really notorious and murderous criminals and just arrest them, obviously (although even then, I don't think beating a guy senseless is necessary unless they're clearly dangerous); the major solution to this issue (or at least part of it) would be to just sort out what level of crime warrants what level of punishment better.
Whatever the case, I agree that a great deal of cops in this country right now are (and maybe even for quite a while, were) total scumbags that really need to quit using their positions of authority as leverage to act no better than the people they claim they're "bringing to justice". I don't have much to say on the grand juries other than that they REALLY need to start running things better, as right now the system is just flawed to hell and back.
TheNecromancer
3160
Here we go again. I want to make a topic about out of control topics. Let's see how long this one takes. If this makes it to page 10 without personal insults I will stop complaining about this shit.
Would there be any real chance of actually adopting this in the United States?
Well I mean...I don't think there is actually like any point of contention to debate here. But I mean also I feel like...that's kind of unfair. Like heated debate is what tends to make threads get to page 10 in the first place (!) which yes might also tend to come with some heated rhetoric or even personal insults. But yeah I mean...as far as I'm concerned this thread is about like deeper understanding of the problem and exploring solutions. I don't seriously anticipate anyone is going to debate the very existence of the problem because it is painfully self evident across the bleeding face of our fractured society.
I literally hear about a new cop-murders-unarmed-person story EVERY DAY and have been for the last three weeks.
EDIT: Would having tighter psychological screening on who is allowed to become a cop help matters? Some of these guys seem like violent psychos and they are often repeat offenders.
EDIT2: OH MY FUCKING GOD. JESUSMARYFUCK.
author=Link_2112
Here we go again. I want to make a topic about out of control topics. Let's see how long this one takes. If this makes it to page 10 without personal insults I will stop complaining about this shit.
Well I mean...I don't think there is actually like any point of contention to debate here. But I mean also I feel like...that's kind of unfair. Like heated debate is what tends to make threads get to page 10 in the first place (!) which yes might also tend to come with some heated rhetoric or even personal insults. But yeah I mean...as far as I'm concerned this thread is about like deeper understanding of the problem and exploring solutions. I don't seriously anticipate anyone is going to debate the very existence of the problem because it is painfully self evident across the bleeding face of our fractured society.
I literally hear about a new cop-murders-unarmed-person story EVERY DAY and have been for the last three weeks.
EDIT: Would having tighter psychological screening on who is allowed to become a cop help matters? Some of these guys seem like violent psychos and they are often repeat offenders.
EDIT2: OH MY FUCKING GOD. JESUSMARYFUCK.
TheNecromancer
3160
But like, this is RMN. The best we could hope for is that someone makes a game about this to raise awareness.
Like this issue, it's history plays a big part in the discussion. Based on the history of these kinds of topics here on RMN, I don't have high hopes. And this just feels too much like your continuation of the previous topic. Like you're just picking up where you left off, likely still on the heels of your anger from that topic. The problem isn't the OP. The problem happens around page 2 or 3 when someone says something slightly off topic, then that becomes the focus, 2 people strongly disagree and start hurling insults. Trying to discredit the other person's stance. You've already openly admitted that you have a compulsion NOT to let those things go.
None of us have the power to do anything meaningful. If we did, things would have changed already. And a lot of what you are saying is personal opinion based on your experiences. We don't all live in the states so we don't all experience these issues. Our cops in rural Nova Scotia are great people who live in the community and do good things. Why should I care about this issue among all the other issues going on in the world? While we're at it lets solve world hunger, pollution, child abuse, and the economy.
I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything about injustice. I'm just saying you should pick a better avenue for it. You may change 2-3 opinions here. And um...learn about a few stories you didn't know about before. Not sure what else you hope to accomplish here. I'm also not saying you shouldn't be talking about this at all. Go nuts. But I'm sure as hell going to bitch about it.
I don't know about you, but I have better things to do than to spend all night reading horror stories. I don't wear fear goggles and focus on all the negative things in the world. I know they exist, but I prefer to focus on the positive and the things that affect me in my life. I can't be a super hero that goes around solving problems all around the world.
Like this issue, it's history plays a big part in the discussion. Based on the history of these kinds of topics here on RMN, I don't have high hopes. And this just feels too much like your continuation of the previous topic. Like you're just picking up where you left off, likely still on the heels of your anger from that topic. The problem isn't the OP. The problem happens around page 2 or 3 when someone says something slightly off topic, then that becomes the focus, 2 people strongly disagree and start hurling insults. Trying to discredit the other person's stance. You've already openly admitted that you have a compulsion NOT to let those things go.
None of us have the power to do anything meaningful. If we did, things would have changed already. And a lot of what you are saying is personal opinion based on your experiences. We don't all live in the states so we don't all experience these issues. Our cops in rural Nova Scotia are great people who live in the community and do good things. Why should I care about this issue among all the other issues going on in the world? While we're at it lets solve world hunger, pollution, child abuse, and the economy.
I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything about injustice. I'm just saying you should pick a better avenue for it. You may change 2-3 opinions here. And um...learn about a few stories you didn't know about before. Not sure what else you hope to accomplish here. I'm also not saying you shouldn't be talking about this at all. Go nuts. But I'm sure as hell going to bitch about it.
I don't know about you, but I have better things to do than to spend all night reading horror stories. I don't wear fear goggles and focus on all the negative things in the world. I know they exist, but I prefer to focus on the positive and the things that affect me in my life. I can't be a super hero that goes around solving problems all around the world.
author=Max McGee
Would there be any real chance of actually adopting this in the United States?
No, there wouldn't actually. The fourth amendment of the Constitution and appellate interpretations prevent it. There's nothing actually wrong with the adversarial system. What is wrong is interpretations.
People don't know this but a lot of court and police procedures weren't unconstitutional as little as 50 years ago. The police are actually very frustrated about our broken system and this could be a precipitating factor in growing police reaction. Did you know that as little as 50 to 60 years ago, you did not have the right to remain silent? Did you know that as little as 50 or 60 years ago, you did not have the right to have a lawyer present during interrogation? And if police officer didn't get a warrant to search your house, the penalty was dismissal of the officer, but it wasn't dismissal of the murder weapon. And why should it have been? Crime and investigation isn't a game, and yet that's what it's turned into.
Read Guilty: The Collapse of Criminal Justice, by Judge Harold J. Rothwax. He goes into detail about each of the broken laws and explains how courtroom law is really supposed to work, but no longer does. Believe it or not, this system used to work. If new laws that ensure a defendant's rights are so wonderful, why has our nation steadily become a dictatorship since their inception? What began as an effort to make all people in our nation equal (the removal of Jim Crow laws and such) became a decline into over-regulation, ligation, and police control.
I can go on for hours about reasonable expectation of privacy, do automobiles require a warrant, when does an officer need a warrant, where does the suspects rights begin and the states rights end. You see, these laws are inquisitorial where the system is adversarial and that's the real root of the problem; in an inquisitorial system, the suspect, by necessity is guilty until proven innocent. In an inquisitorial system, the burden of proof is on the suspect. However, our adversarial system recognizes that the suspect has the right to a defense equal to the court's offense. The state has access to unlimited resources in prosecuting the defendant. The defendant has no resources at all. In an adversarial system, the defendant has the right to an attorney with access to these resources.
Common sense might ask why a potential criminal should be given such opportunity overpower the government's defense? Delving deeper into common sense, we realize that if he doesn't, the government may, with impunity, prosecute anyone without oversight or check. You see, our adversarial system is one of the few things that is protecting our rights. If you want an example of an inquisitorial system, see China, pre-democratic England, and communist Russia. In inquisitorial systems, the defendant has no rights.
Edit: Oh, but Link, we do have the power to make meaningful change, and dialogue is where it begins. Dialogue becomes awareness, and if you choose to foster awareness, it will spread to others. Remember: government is an imaginary construct created by people and people are the power behind the government.
regardless of your opinion on the topic or your affinity for the the original poster, stating apathy for the topic and having the attiude that people can't change anything isn't productive or worth your time
while posting something like this on an rpgmaker forum isn't the most ""effective"" thing to do... spreading information & awareness and gathering information & opinions from other people isn't a bad idea either. a few changed opinions or slightly more informed minds can also spread their influence.
this issue is extremely important because there has been so much recorded police brutality and killings of race/gender/sexual minorities and disabled people during this year alone! not to mention, at least, the last decade's worth of it. this issue is only becoming more and more of a problem and it needs immediate fixing.
while posting something like this on an rpgmaker forum isn't the most ""effective"" thing to do... spreading information & awareness and gathering information & opinions from other people isn't a bad idea either. a few changed opinions or slightly more informed minds can also spread their influence.
this issue is extremely important because there has been so much recorded police brutality and killings of race/gender/sexual minorities and disabled people during this year alone! not to mention, at least, the last decade's worth of it. this issue is only becoming more and more of a problem and it needs immediate fixing.
None of us have the power to do anything meaningful. If we did, things would have changed already. And a lot of what you are saying is personal opinion based on your experiences. We don't all live in the states so we don't all experience these issues. Our cops in rural Nova Scotia are great people who live in the community and do good things. Why should I care about this issue among all the other issues going on in the world? While we're at it lets solve world hunger, pollution, child abuse, and the economy.
first off, you act like change is an instantaneous process. it isn't. and who cares if things aren't like that outside the US. some of us DO live in the US and want to talk about this, and some people outside the US would probably like to understand what is happening here better. i doubt anyone is gonna complain if you make a thread talking about shit going down in nova scotia and say "well it isn't about the US so delete this thread amerocentric moderation team (liberty)"
I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything about injustice. I'm just saying you should pick a better avenue for it. You may change 2-3 opinions here. And um...learn about a few stories you didn't know about before. Not sure what else you hope to accomplish here. I'm also not saying you shouldn't be talking about this at all. Go nuts. But I'm sure as hell going to bitch about it.
I don't know about you, but I have better things to do than to spend all night reading horror stories. I don't wear fear goggles and focus on all the negative things in the world. I know they exist, but I prefer to focus on the positive and the things that affect me in my life. I can't be a super hero that goes around solving problems all around the world.
then don't read or post in this thread. it's clear that some people don't have a complete understanding of these issues, and these discussions help to bring a person to a fuller, more comprehensive viewpoint. if this topic gets out of control, or if kentona wants to lock it since it is essentially a continuation of a thread he just locked, they/he will. until then, things are civil, so what's the problem. talking about how things are just destined to get violent in here sure isn't going to help matters, and if it bothers you, like I said...don't read it.
Would there be any real chance of actually adopting this in the United States?
that's the thing i linked. um, do I think there is a real chance? it's remote. the system set up now protects its own existence. it's not out of the question. I think it's far more likely that if we see any change at all, it will simply be a big reform of the grand jury system. or its abolishment. since 99 percent of non-cops are brought to trial and almost no cops are, when a grand jury is...f.uck it, just bring everyone to trial
@Link2112: Then please don't post here. It will only be part of the problem. I don't mean "part of the problem of police brutality" obviously I mean "part of the problem of having a civil discussion on RMN". Your self-described "bitching" isn't going to help this be a civil discussion.
And if you think it's not your problem because you don't live in the US then just seriously...please don't post here. You don't care about America's problems, that's fine. You have nothing to add, so please stay out. But I mean I don't know if one of our members from the Middle East was posting about the issues effecting their country I don't think I'd ever be like "not my problem isn't happening in America I don't care". Because RMN is a community.
I should clarify: I don't know if we have the power to change anything. But I also can't think of *anyone* I am sure has both the power and the inclination to enact change as far as this is concerned. For all of the public outrage
You know what I think the real problem is and I've got to get a bit moralistic here but what I think the real problem is is COWARDICE. These pigs are SO. FUCKING. SCARED. that THEY might be hurt that they react to mundane situations with insane, over-the-top excessive force.
Look at this disgusting video. It's one homeless man illegally camping. They are concerned, I guess, because he has a couple of pocket knives? So they send in like six officers most of which are armed with heavy body armor and weapons so kitted out and accessorized that they literally look just like something out of fucking Call of Duty plus more officers with shotguns and dogs. Then they apparently give him their word that he can leave peacefully, and when he turns his back to pick up his stuff, they chuck a stun grenade at him, and then because he was making "threatening gestures" from like twenty or thirty feet away, they engage him with lethal weapons (they HAD less-lethal weapons as you see a second later), and when he GOES DOWN and stops moving except to say things like "PLEASE DON'T HURT ME ANYMORE" and "I CAN'T MOVE" (which you can clearly hear him saying) as they SCREAM at him to drop the knife which he can't do because they severed his spine with their bullets, they shoot him THREE MORE TIMES with a beanbag shotgun while he is unable to move and then once that is done they are STILL SO SCARED OF HIM that they sick a dog on him to savage him and then when he doesn't react at all to being savaged by a dog, only then do they approach him with all the wariness in the world like he was a building full of heavily armed terrorists and 'step on him, real hard'. It's fucking unbelievable.
How fucking helpless and prostrate does someone have to be before you don't feel threatened by them, you fucking cowards?
Literally, they would rather be 100% sure that he is dead than face a 1% chance they might potentially be injured. When did being a cop become about using whatever force necessary to insure you don't have to make any sacrifices in the line of duty?
And if you think it's not your problem because you don't live in the US then just seriously...please don't post here. You don't care about America's problems, that's fine. You have nothing to add, so please stay out. But I mean I don't know if one of our members from the Middle East was posting about the issues effecting their country I don't think I'd ever be like "not my problem isn't happening in America I don't care". Because RMN is a community.
I should clarify: I don't know if we have the power to change anything. But I also can't think of *anyone* I am sure has both the power and the inclination to enact change as far as this is concerned. For all of the public outrage
You know what I think the real problem is and I've got to get a bit moralistic here but what I think the real problem is is COWARDICE. These pigs are SO. FUCKING. SCARED. that THEY might be hurt that they react to mundane situations with insane, over-the-top excessive force.
Look at this disgusting video. It's one homeless man illegally camping. They are concerned, I guess, because he has a couple of pocket knives? So they send in like six officers most of which are armed with heavy body armor and weapons so kitted out and accessorized that they literally look just like something out of fucking Call of Duty plus more officers with shotguns and dogs. Then they apparently give him their word that he can leave peacefully, and when he turns his back to pick up his stuff, they chuck a stun grenade at him, and then because he was making "threatening gestures" from like twenty or thirty feet away, they engage him with lethal weapons (they HAD less-lethal weapons as you see a second later), and when he GOES DOWN and stops moving except to say things like "PLEASE DON'T HURT ME ANYMORE" and "I CAN'T MOVE" (which you can clearly hear him saying) as they SCREAM at him to drop the knife which he can't do because they severed his spine with their bullets, they shoot him THREE MORE TIMES with a beanbag shotgun while he is unable to move and then once that is done they are STILL SO SCARED OF HIM that they sick a dog on him to savage him and then when he doesn't react at all to being savaged by a dog, only then do they approach him with all the wariness in the world like he was a building full of heavily armed terrorists and 'step on him, real hard'. It's fucking unbelievable.
How fucking helpless and prostrate does someone have to be before you don't feel threatened by them, you fucking cowards?
Literally, they would rather be 100% sure that he is dead than face a 1% chance they might potentially be injured. When did being a cop become about using whatever force necessary to insure you don't have to make any sacrifices in the line of duty?
as for more psychological screening, i doubt that would help. if you have ever applied for a job where they give you one of those electronic applications, you know how pathetically easy it is to give the 'right' answer to every question. don't see that helping short of a machine that plugs into your brain and determines what kind of person you are.
if you have ever applied for a job where they give you one of those electronic applications, you know how pathetically easy it is to give the 'right' answer to every question.
To be blunt I agree but I think like a LOT of posters on RMN if not virtually ALL of them, I have an IQ that is well above average.
I am not pandering just making an observation when I say that we are at least on paper an extremely intelligent bunch: I think that our particular brand of nerdery selects for that.
I'm not sure that's true of police officer candidates, though, honestly. I am pretty sure that most police officers candidates are closer to around average intelligence.
In any case maybe I should be talking about BETTER behavioral screening rather than more. Certainly there should be less leniency for behavioral infractions. All too many of these "killer cops" have crossed the line before killing someone, but were just reprimanded, not drummed out of the police force.
As living beings, we have a duty to life, and with our system the way it is, these cops are coming to the conclusion that a bullet is the only thing that solves anything. It's more than just fixing the problems. As I'm fond of saying, we're seeing a symptom of the disease; not the disease itself.
