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OUT OF CONTROL COPS - A SERIOUS PROBLEM IN AMERICA
Posts
TheNecromancer
3160
TheNecromancer
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CloseI was being a little generous in my 2-3 estimate. Nobody is getting informed here. There's just a handful of people who already consider themselves aware and informed discussing hypothetical solutions to such large problems.
Your basically arguing human nature. News flash, people have been abusing power and murdering people for 1000's of years. Things have yet to change. They are simply getting worse, now that money makes the world go round. Plus you aren't cops. So you don't know what it's like to be cops. But you want a police force to uphold the law. They are human beings, not perfect machines that always get it right. There is no system in the world that is perfect; government, politics, charities, schools, churches. It's because they are run by human beings. Obviously cops shouldn't be killing innocent people but you can't say that you know what it's like to put yourself on the frontlines like that. To live your entire life being in danger. It's not exactly a secret that these things go on. Anybody who follows the news even a little knows at least a few of these stories. But this site probably has a lot of young impressionable minds. Do you honestly believe that you are qualified to shape their opinions to match your own? You link a pile of news stories and talk about how you hate pigs. Yeah, let's get our younger generation to hate all cops indiscriminately because a few/some/a bunch/too many do bad things. That will help. Half of the "solutions" you talk about are probably already being researched and attempted, and probably failing. Hell just in the last hour when I checked cbc news(not looking for horror stories), there was a story about how more cops are wearing body cameras but the effectiveness is questionable. There are people who can make a difference, who are trying to make a difference, and it's all hit or miss. I mean, where exactly did you get your views? What are your credentials? Can you prove to me that you are qualified to make the right decisions on these matters? That you even have all the relavent facts? What you read on the internet doesn't count. It's all guessing. All your doing is linking the worst of the worst stories and fear mongering. All cops are evil. We're spreading the right message. Join us.
I don't have to post in this topic, but it's my right to do so. It's on RMN so I'm going to read it. It's in my public space and I have an opinion about it. It's a two way street.
e: A conversation stays civil by keeping personal attacks out of it, not by people like me staying out of it because I have an opposing viewpoint. Don't call me a fucking moron(or whatever) for having my opinion. I said no such thing to any of you. I'm not "mad" about this topic alone. There's a long history of these kinds of topics. I will admit that as time goes on these RMN topics get less hateful as those members are booted out.
e2: I don't plan to stick around and argue. This will be my last post in here.
Your basically arguing human nature. News flash, people have been abusing power and murdering people for 1000's of years. Things have yet to change. They are simply getting worse, now that money makes the world go round. Plus you aren't cops. So you don't know what it's like to be cops. But you want a police force to uphold the law. They are human beings, not perfect machines that always get it right. There is no system in the world that is perfect; government, politics, charities, schools, churches. It's because they are run by human beings. Obviously cops shouldn't be killing innocent people but you can't say that you know what it's like to put yourself on the frontlines like that. To live your entire life being in danger. It's not exactly a secret that these things go on. Anybody who follows the news even a little knows at least a few of these stories. But this site probably has a lot of young impressionable minds. Do you honestly believe that you are qualified to shape their opinions to match your own? You link a pile of news stories and talk about how you hate pigs. Yeah, let's get our younger generation to hate all cops indiscriminately because a few/some/a bunch/too many do bad things. That will help. Half of the "solutions" you talk about are probably already being researched and attempted, and probably failing. Hell just in the last hour when I checked cbc news(not looking for horror stories), there was a story about how more cops are wearing body cameras but the effectiveness is questionable. There are people who can make a difference, who are trying to make a difference, and it's all hit or miss. I mean, where exactly did you get your views? What are your credentials? Can you prove to me that you are qualified to make the right decisions on these matters? That you even have all the relavent facts? What you read on the internet doesn't count. It's all guessing. All your doing is linking the worst of the worst stories and fear mongering. All cops are evil. We're spreading the right message. Join us.
I don't have to post in this topic, but it's my right to do so. It's on RMN so I'm going to read it. It's in my public space and I have an opinion about it. It's a two way street.
e: A conversation stays civil by keeping personal attacks out of it, not by people like me staying out of it because I have an opposing viewpoint. Don't call me a fucking moron(or whatever) for having my opinion. I said no such thing to any of you. I'm not "mad" about this topic alone. There's a long history of these kinds of topics. I will admit that as time goes on these RMN topics get less hateful as those members are booted out.
e2: I don't plan to stick around and argue. This will be my last post in here.
flapbat
1053
Link, even though you were a dick in my other thread for no reason, I totally agree with your points. And I had actually noticed that RMN was a lot nicer than when I first made an account.
-flap
*edit*
Max, I understand you're passionate about this, but it isn't other peoples responsibility to see things the way you see them. You're both pointing out realities: police officers kill people, sometimes unfairly. That's very bad. And Link is saying that sh*t happens and has a certain margin of compassion and recognition for human error. No-one is the bad guy, but that doesn't mean no one is an aggressor either. Many people here may be from the right wing. Imo it's not worth it make an enemy of someone because of how their categorized.
-flap
*edit*
Max, I understand you're passionate about this, but it isn't other peoples responsibility to see things the way you see them. You're both pointing out realities: police officers kill people, sometimes unfairly. That's very bad. And Link is saying that sh*t happens and has a certain margin of compassion and recognition for human error. No-one is the bad guy, but that doesn't mean no one is an aggressor either. Many people here may be from the right wing. Imo it's not worth it make an enemy of someone because of how their categorized.
your opinion really isn't opposing, it is on a different point within the spectrum of possible opinions on the subject. ... your only input was to add is "every system is corrupt it's human nature there is no hope police brutality is inevitable etc etc" which is in a sense trying to shut down the topic because you think discussing it has no merits...
though due to general levels of immaturity & close-mindedness when discussing topics outside of the gaming world on here, this topic was a bad idea
though due to general levels of immaturity & close-mindedness when discussing topics outside of the gaming world on here, this topic was a bad idea
I don't have to post in this topic, but it's my right to do so. It's on RMN so I'm going to read it. It's in my public space and I have an opinion about it. It's a two way street.
e: A conversation stays civil by keeping personal attacks out of it, not by people like me staying out of it because I have an opposing viewpoint. Don't call me a fucking moron(or whatever) for having my opinion. I said no such thing to any of you. I'm not "mad" about this topic alone. There's a long history of these kinds of topics. I will admit that as time goes on these RMN topics get less hateful as those members are booted out.
1. nobody made a personal attack against you. 2. you are essentially coming into this thread to attempt to shut it down. i don't think i need to explain why this is different from people discussing something you personally don't care about, but you are the first and only example of anyone in this thread being anything close to uncivil.
I was being a little generous in my 2-3 estimate. Nobody is getting informed here. There's just a handful of people who already consider themselves aware and informed discussing hypothetical solutions to such large problems.
??? max didn't know how grand juries differ and you are dismissing any people that could be reading and not posting.
i want to go back to the case of garner. i appear to be on the minority in this one.
Eric Garner - 44. Suffocated to death by multiple NYPD officers for the crime of selling loose cigarettes. The pigs responsible were not indicted by a grand jury.
I don't agree with this. he suffocated, but it was caused by a litany of health conditions he had that were triggered by the cop who subdued him. I definitely things escalated to a physical takedown way too fast, but I can't really say the cop was at fault either. If the cop did use a chokehold (constriction of airway,) it was for about 3 seconds. He definitely shouldn't have done this, but I would say it was emphatically not the reason Garner died, either. you could have probably slapped him on the back and his heart would have exploded.
author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
I don't agree with this. he suffocated, but it was caused by a litany of health conditions he had that were triggered by the cop who subdued him. I definitely things escalated to a physical takedown way too fast, but I can't really say the cop was at fault either. If the cop did use a chokehold (constriction of airway,) it was for about 3 seconds. He definitely shouldn't have done this, but I would say it was emphatically not the reason Garner died, either. you could have probably slapped him on the back and his heart would have exploded.
While you are empirically correct, Garner's death was ruled a homicide by compression of neck. Just as in the Mike Brown case, we have no real reason to question the medical conclusions.
When a man is saying repeatedly "I can't breathe" in that context, for someone to be so sociopathic as to continue the physical conditions after hearing that, there's a problem.
It's not murder, but it's criminal negligence in my opinion. At the very least, it's grounds for termination and revoking of the ability to be a cop.
If you live in the US, especially anywhere remotely near NYC or Ferguson but anywhere in the US really, you can't open a window or turn on a TV without seeing this shit tearing our society apart. It's natural and right for us to want to discuss it.
Here's the thing, though. Things are actually supposed to be getting *BETTER* over time. And you could make an argument that they are. In spite of my fervent opposition to you-know-whats, society is actually becoming more just over time. Two hundred years ago black people in America were chattel. One hundred years ago they were second class citizens with no civil rights. So yes, as the timeline moves forward, things are improving in the world. You look at women, or gays, same thing. Things are a lot better than they were 200 years ago. In America. Not sure how it's going in Nova Scotia, maybe there it's getting worse? I don't see much news on Nova Scotia.
You ever hear someone say "jesus fucking christ, XYZ is still happening!? it's 2014 for fuck's sake" ... well, basically speaking that's people acknowledging the unspoken assumption that human beings are supposed to be getting LESS fucked up over time. It's called social progress.
This argument is total bullshit. Here's the thing, cops are paid well to risk their lives. But the way they have militarized against the populace they are supposed to protect ensures that THEY are not the ones at risk, because anyone who might even conceivably be a threat to them, they kill at the slightest provocation, or none at all, or none at all. And that is fucking bullshit, because they are not actually doing what they are getting paid for: risking their lives to defend society. And yes, whatever #NOTALLCOPS but the blue man is the man I am the least worried about here.
I find myself very much wondering where Liberty et al went when I find myself being the sole person to be making the argument that police are effectively gestapo terrorizing disenfranchised minorities. I feel like suddenly it is bizzarro world.
Look man, I'm a punk at heart, like...I basically have the anarchy sign tattooed on my soul, you don't roll that way, that's fine. I respect that my beliefs aren't for everyone. I fully expect to be challenged on the more extreme parts of my rhetoric, calling cops pigs, etcetera. It just seems surreal when yesterday I was coming over attack as being some kind of reactionary just for suggestion that police brutality didn't happen solely and exclusively to black folks and now today I am being challenged for suggesting it is an epidemic at all.
But anyway part of my beliefs include that young people are smart enough to look at the facts and form their own conclusions. And I don't think that the establishment needs any help from me to propagandize their bullshit side.
If you are actually going to stick by your declared intention and stay out of this thread from now on, I think that would be best.
I did not assert that it was anyone's responsibility to see things the way I see them. Look man, in all seriousness...if anyone sees things differently they are WELCOME to share. I just don't think anyone does. By which I mean that I think everyone agrees that these are shameful atrocities that could be prevented by societal changes. People should stop trusting the police and stop defending them by default for starters, because often the police are not deserving of your trust or your backing.
I really hope that this is not true.
I don't know man, my viewing of the video gave me a very different impression. His cries of pain that he couldn't breathe seemed very genuine. And the way that they were pressing his face down into the pavement at an angle after the chokehold seemed extremely harmful to his airway/ability to draw breath. That video is fucking disturbing.
Also like I feel like--not that you specifically are making this argument--but I feel like the police want it both ways. Like at the same time they are saying that he was such a huge terrifying demon-like black man that they all needed to wrestle him into a chokehold but at the same time he was so cartoonishly frail that his heart would have exploded if they blew on him. Like...pick one. Either he's a giant black hercules or he's some kind of ticking time bomb of heart disease waiting for a stiff breeze. It can't be both.
Now Mike Brown I think that a case could actually be made for self defense based on the bruises Darren Wilson had. But there should at least have been an indictment and a trial in an actual court with an actual judge. But I mean...I stand by that grabbing for a cop's gun is a really good way to get killed.
I completely agree. The NYPD are completely unjustified in standing behind these officers, whose actions seem both sadistic and unnecessary.
Your basically arguing human nature. News flash, people have been abusing power and murdering people for 1000's of years. Things have yet to change. They are simply getting worse, now that money makes the world go round.
Here's the thing, though. Things are actually supposed to be getting *BETTER* over time. And you could make an argument that they are. In spite of my fervent opposition to you-know-whats, society is actually becoming more just over time. Two hundred years ago black people in America were chattel. One hundred years ago they were second class citizens with no civil rights. So yes, as the timeline moves forward, things are improving in the world. You look at women, or gays, same thing. Things are a lot better than they were 200 years ago. In America. Not sure how it's going in Nova Scotia, maybe there it's getting worse? I don't see much news on Nova Scotia.
You ever hear someone say "jesus fucking christ, XYZ is still happening!? it's 2014 for fuck's sake" ... well, basically speaking that's people acknowledging the unspoken assumption that human beings are supposed to be getting LESS fucked up over time. It's called social progress.
Plus you aren't cops. So you don't know what it's like to be cops. But you want a police force to uphold the law. They are human beings, not perfect machines that always get it right. There is no system in the world that is perfect; government, politics, charities, schools, churches. It's because they are run by human beings. Obviously cops shouldn't be killing innocent people but you can't say that you know what it's like to put yourself on the frontlines like that. To live your entire life being in danger. It's not exactly a secret that these things go on. Anybody who follows the news even a little knows at least a few of these stories.
This argument is total bullshit. Here's the thing, cops are paid well to risk their lives. But the way they have militarized against the populace they are supposed to protect ensures that THEY are not the ones at risk, because anyone who might even conceivably be a threat to them, they kill at the slightest provocation, or none at all, or none at all. And that is fucking bullshit, because they are not actually doing what they are getting paid for: risking their lives to defend society. And yes, whatever #NOTALLCOPS but the blue man is the man I am the least worried about here.
I find myself very much wondering where Liberty et al went when I find myself being the sole person to be making the argument that police are effectively gestapo terrorizing disenfranchised minorities. I feel like suddenly it is bizzarro world.
But this site probably has a lot of young impressionable minds. Do you honestly believe that you are qualified to shape their opinions to match your own? You link a pile of news stories and talk about how you hate pigs. Yeah, let's get our younger generation to hate all cops indiscriminately because a few/some/a bunch/too many do bad things.
Look man, I'm a punk at heart, like...I basically have the anarchy sign tattooed on my soul, you don't roll that way, that's fine. I respect that my beliefs aren't for everyone. I fully expect to be challenged on the more extreme parts of my rhetoric, calling cops pigs, etcetera. It just seems surreal when yesterday I was coming over attack as being some kind of reactionary just for suggestion that police brutality didn't happen solely and exclusively to black folks and now today I am being challenged for suggesting it is an epidemic at all.
But anyway part of my beliefs include that young people are smart enough to look at the facts and form their own conclusions. And I don't think that the establishment needs any help from me to propagandize their bullshit side.
If you are actually going to stick by your declared intention and stay out of this thread from now on, I think that would be best.
Max, I understand you're passionate about this, but it isn't other peoples responsibility to see things the way you see them
I did not assert that it was anyone's responsibility to see things the way I see them. Look man, in all seriousness...if anyone sees things differently they are WELCOME to share. I just don't think anyone does. By which I mean that I think everyone agrees that these are shameful atrocities that could be prevented by societal changes. People should stop trusting the police and stop defending them by default for starters, because often the police are not deserving of your trust or your backing.
though due to general levels of immaturity & close-mindedness when discussing topics outside of the gaming world on here, this topic was a bad idea
I really hope that this is not true.
I don't agree with this. he suffocated, but it was caused by a litany of health conditions he had that were triggered by the cop who subdued him. I definitely things escalated to a physical takedown way too fast, but I can't really say the cop was at fault either. If the cop did use a chokehold (constriction of airway,) it was for about 3 seconds. He definitely shouldn't have done this, but I would say it was emphatically not the reason Garner died, either. you could have probably slapped him on the back and his heart would have exploded.
I don't know man, my viewing of the video gave me a very different impression. His cries of pain that he couldn't breathe seemed very genuine. And the way that they were pressing his face down into the pavement at an angle after the chokehold seemed extremely harmful to his airway/ability to draw breath. That video is fucking disturbing.
Also like I feel like--not that you specifically are making this argument--but I feel like the police want it both ways. Like at the same time they are saying that he was such a huge terrifying demon-like black man that they all needed to wrestle him into a chokehold but at the same time he was so cartoonishly frail that his heart would have exploded if they blew on him. Like...pick one. Either he's a giant black hercules or he's some kind of ticking time bomb of heart disease waiting for a stiff breeze. It can't be both.
Now Mike Brown I think that a case could actually be made for self defense based on the bruises Darren Wilson had. But there should at least have been an indictment and a trial in an actual court with an actual judge. But I mean...I stand by that grabbing for a cop's gun is a really good way to get killed.
When a man is saying repeatedly "I can't breathe" in that context, for someone to be so sociopathic as to continue the physical conditions after hearing that, there's a problem.
I completely agree. The NYPD are completely unjustified in standing behind these officers, whose actions seem both sadistic and unnecessary.
I definitely think Garner was handled inappropriately (i wish more non-physical persuasion was at least attempted) in a way that ultimately resulted in triggering the cardiac arrest that killed him. I just think the narrative that frames his death as suffocation at the hands of the police is incorrect. one of the symptoms of cardiac arrest is not being able to breathe, and there was determined to be no damage to his windpipe or anything, and the most generous estimate i've seen for how long a chokehold was applied was nine seconds. how do you physically detain someone who just...immediately begins to have heart death.
but again, physically detaining him was probably the wrong move. Pantaleo was put on desk duty and stripped of his badge and gun (probably should be off the force entirely but idk) and the police commissioner ordered an extensive review of NYPD's training procedures (specifically, how much force is appropriate to detain a subject.) Not sure what else can be done.
but again, physically detaining him was probably the wrong move. Pantaleo was put on desk duty and stripped of his badge and gun (probably should be off the force entirely but idk) and the police commissioner ordered an extensive review of NYPD's training procedures (specifically, how much force is appropriate to detain a subject.) Not sure what else can be done.
DarklordKeinor
2478
author=Max McGee
Now Mike Brown I think that a case could actually be made for self defense based on the bruises Darren Wilson had. But there should at least have been an indictment and a trial in an actual court with an actual judge. But I mean...I stand by that grabbing for a cop's gun is a really good way to get killed.
If you believe it was self-defense, what crime should he have been charged with exactly? Excessive force, perhaps? Anyway, I am with the consensus that the cop who choked Eric Garner should have been indicted as well. That is all I will say on that subject, due to the earlier thread being locked.
author=Link_2112
Your basically arguing human nature. News flash, people have been abusing power and murdering people for 1000's of years.
Not much to argue with on that point.
author=Link_2112
Things have yet to change. They are simply getting worse, now that money makes the world go round. Plus you aren't cops. So you don't know what it's like to be cops.
You don't have to be a member of a group to critique it. I have heard soldiers and war hawks espouse that line in regards to the military.
author=Link_2112
But you want a police force to uphold the law. They are human beings, not perfect machines that always get it right. There is no system in the world that is perfect; government, politics, charities, schools, churches. It's because they are run by human beings. Obviously cops shouldn't be killing innocent people but you can't say that you know what it's like to put yourself on the frontlines like that.
Humans are fallible, but there are measures we can take to mitigate some of these abuses. Obviously, we'll never remove all instances of corruption, but it is better to try than to do nothing. At least when people talk about these problems, I feel I'm not alone in watching this unfold.
You are correct: I do not know what it is like to be on the frontlines like some cops are, but I still have a moral compass. Max McGee linked a video of a homeless man being shot for camping. What experience would I need to decide that peppering the man with bullets is an appropriate response to the man's passive resistance? Maybe the phantom knife that never appeared on camera would justify such a thing? Personally, I don't buy it.
The rest of your points addressed Max McGee, so I'll cease remarking on your other comments from here. To the general audience, these things must be discussed. Obviously, we're not going to change the system, especially from a gaming website. Things are simply going to be as they are, but information can go a long way. People can start waking up to the fact that we, at least in the United States, are heading towards a police-state, and we should speak out against the blatant abuses of power.
author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
Pantaleo was put on desk duty and stripped of his badge and gun (probably should be off the force entirely but idk) and the police commissioner ordered an extensive review of NYPD's training procedures (specifically, how much force is appropriate to detain a subject.) Not sure what else can be done.
Pantaleo can be removed from the police force like you said. The Justice Department is doing its own investigations, though I doubt anything will come out of it, but we'll see.
Dyhalto
7536
You guys know that "out of control cops" are a symptom rather than a distinct problem, right?
Police officers are stressed out, and it's affecting their job. On one hand, there's this huge and still growing wealth discrepancy between the rich and the poor which creates a pool of people who feel like they have to turn to crime just to make ends meet. Worse yet, criminal culture in the US leans towards a survival-of-the-strongest mentality where aggression is how you prove that you're a better crook than the others. Worse still is the media glamorizing Thug Life over law and order. How many movies are there where a down-on-his-luck gangsta outsmarts/outfights/outdoes his rivals, and a bunch of nameless cops get killed along the way?
On another hand, police officers get slammed by the public at every chance. Stories on corruption or excessive force are a great way to polarize people and sell newspapers. That's the whole reason this (and the previous) stupid thread exists. There no flipside either. They don't get any breaks for heroism or saving the day. It's either bad news about cops behaving inappropriately, or simply news. "Suspect detained". "Hostages released". "Missing person found".
And from the last hand, the one that feeds them, our fearless government feels the need to militarize them so that Lockheed Martin and Raytheon can enjoy a +1% stock uptick for every fully automatic assault rifle, grenade launcher, and tank sold to a county police department.
Using them as revenue generators via speeding tickets doesn't help either. We've all had our run-ins with some damn speed trap. Doesn't do our opinions of them any good.
The stupider of you will take what I've said as a defense of the abhorrent behavior we've seen in the last few years. I'll remind you, this is a symptom of a greater problem. If you want to stop cops from acting like a mafia, break this stupid system that pits the poor vs the middle class vs the rich vs the government vs the cops vs etc. Re-industrialize the country, re-establish a strong middle class, restore society's self confidence, break the backs of international corporations, and destroy the influence of the financial sector. This "fuck tha police" mentality is regressive and will never solve anything.
Police officers are stressed out, and it's affecting their job. On one hand, there's this huge and still growing wealth discrepancy between the rich and the poor which creates a pool of people who feel like they have to turn to crime just to make ends meet. Worse yet, criminal culture in the US leans towards a survival-of-the-strongest mentality where aggression is how you prove that you're a better crook than the others. Worse still is the media glamorizing Thug Life over law and order. How many movies are there where a down-on-his-luck gangsta outsmarts/outfights/outdoes his rivals, and a bunch of nameless cops get killed along the way?
On another hand, police officers get slammed by the public at every chance. Stories on corruption or excessive force are a great way to polarize people and sell newspapers. That's the whole reason this (and the previous) stupid thread exists. There no flipside either. They don't get any breaks for heroism or saving the day. It's either bad news about cops behaving inappropriately, or simply news. "Suspect detained". "Hostages released". "Missing person found".
And from the last hand, the one that feeds them, our fearless government feels the need to militarize them so that Lockheed Martin and Raytheon can enjoy a +1% stock uptick for every fully automatic assault rifle, grenade launcher, and tank sold to a county police department.
Using them as revenue generators via speeding tickets doesn't help either. We've all had our run-ins with some damn speed trap. Doesn't do our opinions of them any good.
The stupider of you will take what I've said as a defense of the abhorrent behavior we've seen in the last few years. I'll remind you, this is a symptom of a greater problem. If you want to stop cops from acting like a mafia, break this stupid system that pits the poor vs the middle class vs the rich vs the government vs the cops vs etc. Re-industrialize the country, re-establish a strong middle class, restore society's self confidence, break the backs of international corporations, and destroy the influence of the financial sector. This "fuck tha police" mentality is regressive and will never solve anything.
Quite frankly, they are out of hand. Completely. There's really no argument against the kind of behaviour they've been exhibiting - I agree with Max that it is sociopathic in nature and needs to be regulated a lot more, with harsher punishments for those who don't abide by the general rules of "Don't do harm to the citizenry you have sworn to protect."
When kids are kidnapped off their front lawn and beaten by cops, then charged with assault (we're talking at 12 year old girl who was checking the breakers because the lighting went out in her house), there is a problem.
When a cop bursts through the door to the wrong flat and fires a round, hitting a young girl (under 10) in the head, killing her instantly (when they'd been warned there were kids in the apartment complex) while she was watching cartoons with her grandmother, there is a problem. Especially when they then go on to try and talk their way out of it by saying the grandmother leapt at them (she was hiding behind the couch) and then change their story to say she brushed against them and the gun mis-fired (again, proven a lie)... well!
When they are taught not to engage in car chases except in the case of life and death emergencies, and yet do so over a blown tail light, leading the driver to lose control and hit a young child who was walking with her father, there is a problem. (Yes, that is a rule they have and are expected to abide by.)
When a man is shot in a store because he was looking at a b-b-gun in an OPEN CARRY state, after cops had been told it was a TOY, there is a problem. Especially when the man was on the phone at the time and was given no time to put the gun down, surprised as he was by suddenly cops with guns.
When a person is beaten half to death by a bunch of cops for no reason while in jail, then when at the hospital, denied care because he asked for documentation of his injuries, then left in jail for many hours, bleeding profusely, there is a fucking problem.
There are literally hundreds of stories about police brutality in the States in just this past year. It's a fucking huge problem.
Granted, there are a lot of good police, but the ones that aren't are treated like heroes, given slaps on the wrist and just moved to a new station to restart their reign of terror. They know they won't be monitored and that they can get away with what they did before. They can literally get away with murder on the streets.
The biggest issue is that the police are not regulated. They are given military weapons and armour with none of the training that goes along with it - training that teaches you how not to incite people to riot, how not to use tear gas and rubber bullets on civvies, how not to be complete and utter fucktards.
There is a problem.
And no amount of shoving your head in the sand is going to make it go the fuck away.
When kids are kidnapped off their front lawn and beaten by cops, then charged with assault (we're talking at 12 year old girl who was checking the breakers because the lighting went out in her house), there is a problem.
When a cop bursts through the door to the wrong flat and fires a round, hitting a young girl (under 10) in the head, killing her instantly (when they'd been warned there were kids in the apartment complex) while she was watching cartoons with her grandmother, there is a problem. Especially when they then go on to try and talk their way out of it by saying the grandmother leapt at them (she was hiding behind the couch) and then change their story to say she brushed against them and the gun mis-fired (again, proven a lie)... well!
When they are taught not to engage in car chases except in the case of life and death emergencies, and yet do so over a blown tail light, leading the driver to lose control and hit a young child who was walking with her father, there is a problem. (Yes, that is a rule they have and are expected to abide by.)
When a man is shot in a store because he was looking at a b-b-gun in an OPEN CARRY state, after cops had been told it was a TOY, there is a problem. Especially when the man was on the phone at the time and was given no time to put the gun down, surprised as he was by suddenly cops with guns.
When a person is beaten half to death by a bunch of cops for no reason while in jail, then when at the hospital, denied care because he asked for documentation of his injuries, then left in jail for many hours, bleeding profusely, there is a fucking problem.
There are literally hundreds of stories about police brutality in the States in just this past year. It's a fucking huge problem.
Granted, there are a lot of good police, but the ones that aren't are treated like heroes, given slaps on the wrist and just moved to a new station to restart their reign of terror. They know they won't be monitored and that they can get away with what they did before. They can literally get away with murder on the streets.
The biggest issue is that the police are not regulated. They are given military weapons and armour with none of the training that goes along with it - training that teaches you how not to incite people to riot, how not to use tear gas and rubber bullets on civvies, how not to be complete and utter fucktards.
There is a problem.
And no amount of shoving your head in the sand is going to make it go the fuck away.
dyhalto
i can count way, waaay more movies where the law wins. a minor point, since i don't think any child watches a movie and says 'yeah...i want to grow up and do crimes!!' unless it is inception or oceans 11. either way, this is the deciding factor or any kind of significant influence in someone committing a crime ever.
as for police officers feeling stressed, i find that hard to believe, since the amount of crime they've had to deal with has been in a steep decline for the past two decades.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Property_Crime_Rates_in_the_United_States.svg/518px-Property_Crime_Rates_in_the_United_States.svg.png
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
and...if they would not get slammed so much if they would stop doing incredibly horrific shit. if you can not deal with being lambasted if you toss a grenade at a baby, perhaps don't become a police officer.
the divide in wealth is a legitimate issue, but ultimately separate, since a rather significant portion of police brutality victims were not committing crimes, which, again, has been in decline.
author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
and...if they would not get slammed so much if they would stop doing incredibly horrific shit. if you can not deal with being lambasted if you toss a grenade at a baby, perhaps don't toss a grenade at a baby.
Fixed.
i think regular citizens should retain their right to mercilessly pelt infants with all manners of explosives without being embarrassed or vilified by the media
author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
i think regular citizens should retain their right to mercilessly pelt infants with all manners of explosives without being embarrassed or vilified by the media
We shall have to agree to disagree, good sir! -_q
DarklordKeinor
2478
author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
as for police officers feeling stressed, i find that hard to believe, since the amount of crime they've had to deal with has been in a steep decline for the past two decades..
Dyhalto's point did not pertain to crime level. He was discussing the level of public scrutiny police are subject to, and the large degree of financial disparity among the classes. It is through that, he says, that the police are stressed.
I wonder why they're scrutinised in the public, though. Might be because they've been misusing their authority. Too bad. I've no sympathy for those who hurt others for no other reason than because they can.
police wouldn't be facing public scrutiny if for the last couple of decades (probably longer) if they weren't just instruments higher classes use to deal with lower classes
if the police were doing their jobs correctly, there would be no need for scrutiny. any criticism they are receiving shouldn't be taken as "too much" because they are given an absurd amount of power in our society. they should be regulated and trained so that they don't abuse their power and kill unarmed (and sometimes completely innocent) civilians
that is like me murdering your brother. and then you blaming the rest of your family because they think i'm bad for murdering your brother... blaming police brutality on people's reactions to police brutality is absurd
if the police were doing their jobs correctly, there would be no need for scrutiny. any criticism they are receiving shouldn't be taken as "too much" because they are given an absurd amount of power in our society. they should be regulated and trained so that they don't abuse their power and kill unarmed (and sometimes completely innocent) civilians
that is like me murdering your brother. and then you blaming the rest of your family because they think i'm bad for murdering your brother... blaming police brutality on people's reactions to police brutality is absurd
since i don't think any child watches a movie and says 'yeah...i want to grow up and do crimes!!'
man i watched like reservoir dogs and pulp fiction and came away from them like 'yeah...i want to grow up and do crimes!!!' and those movies don't even go well for the crooks. but i'm fucking weird. also i did not wind up being a professional criminal. instead i embraced game design and some days i wistfully wonder what my life would have been like if i had grown up to do crimes instead. *le sigh*
If you believe it was self-defense, what crime should (Darren Wilson) have been charged with exactly? Excessive force, perhaps?
Basically, indicted != convicted.
I personally think he should have been *charged* with second degree homicide, reckless endangerment, excessive force, involuntary manslaughter, probably a host of other lesser infractions.
I personally think he should only have been convicted of maybe excessive force, involuntary manslaughter, reckless endangerment but not homicide. I don't know I am not a court of law. I do think that there was evidence enough to indict him for "the works" but I wouldn't personally have convicted him of all that much.
The scary thing is that he was not even *charged* with anything.
Again with Pantaleo I don't know how upset most people would have been if he was not *convicted* but the fact that he was not even *indicted* seems OUTRAGEOUS. It seems absurd to me that the system was not even willing to seriously CONSIDER that this might have been a crime.
police wouldn't be facing public scrutiny if for the last couple of decades (probably longer) if they weren't just instruments higher classes use to deal with lower classes
You are wise beyond your years Adon.
author=Adon237
police wouldn't be facing public scrutiny if for the last couple of decades (probably longer) if they weren't just instruments higher classes use to deal with lower classes
This.
With all the obsession about racial or gender privilege, class privilege has flown under the radar. It is, by far, the most pervasive and real of the methods of privilege.
Actually, I rather agree with Dyhalto on this. In fact, I think I said it. Oh, wait, here it is...
Now, I've always been of the mind that a certain type of person is attracted to a job that lets you carry a gun and terrorize people. While I'll agree that people join police forces dreaming of being a hero, there are also people who join the police dreaming of the power trip they'll have. I will also reiterate, THIS...SYSTEM...USED...TO...WORK. It wasn't all that long ago, either and at the time, we respected and trusted police and we were right to do so.
If you can look at the bigger picture, then you can probably add a few reasons for police misbehavior to Dyhalto's list. I am of the mind that the number one cause of this is a breakdown in criminal justice. It's getting harder and harder to put real bad people away because the court has become overly obsessed with the rights of the defendant. Kidnappers and serial rapists literally walk free because police didn't have the right to enter their homes to rescue a prisoner screaming for help. Seriously, there's actually a case where police were called to an apartment complex on something unrelated and heard someone behind a door screaming for help and found a 12-year-old girl locked in a cage when they broke in the door. Her kidnapper had raped her repeatedly. Of course, the judge gave the guy life, but on appeal, the appellate court determined that since the girl wasn't a resident, she didn't have the right to give police permission to enter, overturned the previous ruling and dismissed the case. This is one of the cases described in the book by Justice Harry Rothwax. Police are coming to the conclusion that bullets are the only thing that will get criminals off the street.
This is what Anonymous, Infowars, and Free Thought News mean when they say the problem is systemic. Heal the problems in the criminal justice system, start holding police accountable for their actions, stop militarizing them, get our government back on its original course, get corporations out of our policy making, and police brutality won't be in the news every day.
Edit:
Sorry. I agree. I mean, seriously, a bullet in the crown of the skull! That shit doesn't happen in self-defense and witnesses heard him say "Don't shoot, I'm unarmed!" But as for what he was charged with, I'm afraid you're a bit optimistic. First, under State of Missouri's statutes for 1st and 2nd degree Murder, and Voluntary Manslaughter, charges cannot be applied if the suspect was a police officer acting in said capacity, which Wilson definitely was. He can only be considered for Involuntary Manslaughter. The problem with Involuntary Manslaughter is that it cannot be applied if the suspect is aware that his actions will result in the death of the victim.
author=pianotm
As living beings, we have a duty to life, and with our system the way it is, these cops are coming to the conclusion that a bullet is the only thing that solves anything. It's more than just fixing the problems. As I'm fond of saying, we're seeing a symptom of the disease; not the disease itself.
Now, I've always been of the mind that a certain type of person is attracted to a job that lets you carry a gun and terrorize people. While I'll agree that people join police forces dreaming of being a hero, there are also people who join the police dreaming of the power trip they'll have. I will also reiterate, THIS...SYSTEM...USED...TO...WORK. It wasn't all that long ago, either and at the time, we respected and trusted police and we were right to do so.
If you can look at the bigger picture, then you can probably add a few reasons for police misbehavior to Dyhalto's list. I am of the mind that the number one cause of this is a breakdown in criminal justice. It's getting harder and harder to put real bad people away because the court has become overly obsessed with the rights of the defendant. Kidnappers and serial rapists literally walk free because police didn't have the right to enter their homes to rescue a prisoner screaming for help. Seriously, there's actually a case where police were called to an apartment complex on something unrelated and heard someone behind a door screaming for help and found a 12-year-old girl locked in a cage when they broke in the door. Her kidnapper had raped her repeatedly. Of course, the judge gave the guy life, but on appeal, the appellate court determined that since the girl wasn't a resident, she didn't have the right to give police permission to enter, overturned the previous ruling and dismissed the case. This is one of the cases described in the book by Justice Harry Rothwax. Police are coming to the conclusion that bullets are the only thing that will get criminals off the street.
This is what Anonymous, Infowars, and Free Thought News mean when they say the problem is systemic. Heal the problems in the criminal justice system, start holding police accountable for their actions, stop militarizing them, get our government back on its original course, get corporations out of our policy making, and police brutality won't be in the news every day.
Edit:
author=Max McGee
I personally think he should have been *charged* with second degree homicide, reckless endangerment, excessive force, involuntary manslaughter, probably a host of other lesser infractions.
Sorry. I agree. I mean, seriously, a bullet in the crown of the skull! That shit doesn't happen in self-defense and witnesses heard him say "Don't shoot, I'm unarmed!" But as for what he was charged with, I'm afraid you're a bit optimistic. First, under State of Missouri's statutes for 1st and 2nd degree Murder, and Voluntary Manslaughter, charges cannot be applied if the suspect was a police officer acting in said capacity, which Wilson definitely was. He can only be considered for Involuntary Manslaughter. The problem with Involuntary Manslaughter is that it cannot be applied if the suspect is aware that his actions will result in the death of the victim.
