[RM2K3] WHAT DO YOU LIKE BEST ABOUT 2K3?

Posts

author=GreatRedSpirit
I'm curious, does anyone else not relate to the retro / snes argument at all? People talk about a RM game and how it reminds them of a SNES game but I've never seen nor played a RM game that felt like it could've been on the SNES. It always feels like just another RM game but with a cheap coat of paint to make it look like, relatively speaking, a cheap Chinese knock off of Tresures of the Rudra. I don't hold it against them as that's a result of working in something like RM but I'd never consider them a 'SNES game'.

Reminding people of something and being an exact duplicate is not the same thing. That said, yes, there are a few games I've played that have customized a lot of the game play and events that could have easily been something pulled from an SNES game, if for nothing more than the way the game plays and the rips being used.

However, most of the games (the decent ones at least) do remind me of the SNES titles. I can't speak for others, but when I say "reminds me of SNES", I don't necessarily mean "Hey why wasn't this game on the SNES, I would have paid money for it". Just that if you want something that's at least close to what the SNES had, then games on the 2K/3 do a fairly good job when placed in the hands of a competent developer.

Lucky for me, I've grown fond of the old 8-bit and 16-bit games I grew up with, so I can look at a lot of these games with appreciation. I still play my old consoles (NES, SNES, GBA, DS, PS1) when time allows, but over the past few years I've probably played more RM games than anything else.
author=amerk
However, most of the games (the decent ones at least) do remind me of the SNES titles. I can't speak for others, but when I say "reminds me of SNES", I don't necessarily mean "Hey why wasn't this game on the SNES, I would have paid money for it". Just that if you want something that's at least close to what the SNES had, then games on the 2K/3 do a fairly good job when placed in the hands of a competent developer.


To me this sounds more like 'good rm2k(3) games remind me of SNES games because they are also good' than anything specific to a SNES game in itself beyond a similar coarse grain in pixel graphics (which isn't even specific to the SNES itself). Hero's Realm reminds me of specific games like DQ4 for the plot of the first chapter or the SNES & PS1 FF games for the ATB but SNES JRPGs as a whole? No.
If you can, I recommend hooking up a PC to an old CRT television, finding a gamepad, and playing an RM2/3 game.

IT'S LIKE TRAVELING BACK IN TIME.


(I don't have any CRT TVs anymore, we had a 32" Sony one that still worked and was great but we didn't have the space for it. Sold it to somebody on kijiji who wanted one for a retro room. I wish I had the space for a retro room :( )
InfectionFiles
the world ends in whatever my makerscore currently is
4622
I'm working on a retro room right now! Though it's more 40s 50s stuff then real retro nerdy stuff.
It's my "man cave" though, has my consoles and big TV in there.

Sorry, unrelated!
author=pianotm
I love the graphics. I like the rough, unpolished, Super Nintendo look they have. It looks like it could have been on the SNES console. Don't get me wrong; the squeaky clean look of VX Ace has its charm, but 2k3 will always have my favorite graphics. Yes, there's a difference between it and 2000. RM2k has a somewhat more primitive look to it.
Basically this. The amount of resources available for 2k3 is simply unmatched.

And I think at this point, or even nearly a decade ago, most seriously developers knew what the overall "limits" of Rm2k3 were in terms of its functionality and feasibility. There have been notable exceptions with custom menus, battles, etc.. but in general, there's a certain Rm2k3 "flavor" that radiates through nearly all of the games produced with it.

And despite the limitations, most of the community's highly-regarded projects emanated from that time period; Ara Fell, Hero's Realm, Philosopher's Stone, Starless Umbra, Alter A.I.L.A., Dondoran, etc. (I could go on..!)

I think if you're fully aware of the engine and how much time it actually takes to develop a project, you can more fully appreciate a developer's creativity within the limitations. On the other hand, with VXAce and XP, scripts can be freely imported from anonymous sources, so some of the challenge and personal touch is lost.

It could also just be personal for me, because I assimilated into the community during that time period. Around 2005-2007, Rm2k3 was still decidedly the most popular engine, so there's always that nostalgia factor in the conversation lol.
charblar
"wait you made this a career?"
3574
"It's Free to download now"
author=charblar
"It's Free to download now"
Not like we didn't ask for it to be legit for purchase in the past. I kinda feel upset every time I see people say that since I tried so hard to get the ball rolling on a legitimate English translation a few years back. We almost made it, too. :<

I wish it had worked. Imagine all the games being made commercial - good games at that! - from the 2k3 era. And it'd be something to give back after all these years of using the series for free (well, up to VX at least.)
I use it because of familiarity and because I don't wanna be those people who cash in on VXA/XP and kickstart their RPG which amounts to nothing more than an amateur RPG attempt. I'd rather use something effective and release a quality game for free and reap the benefits that way.
There is nothing wrong with selling your hard work. Not a god damned thing. People are going to have to get over that stupid idea. Flood the world with quality games and people will stop buying the crap ones and equating crap with RM games - easy fix.


author=Blindmind
author=pianotm
I love the graphics. I like the rough, unpolished, Super Nintendo look they have. It looks like it could have been on the SNES console. Don't get me wrong; the squeaky clean look of VX Ace has its charm, but 2k3 will always have my favorite graphics. Yes, there's a difference between it and 2000. RM2k has a somewhat more primitive look to it.
Basically this. The amount of resources available for 2k3 is simply unmatched.


You mean rips that we shouldn't be using?
CashmereCat
Self-proclaimed Puzzle Snob
11638
author=Archeia_Nessiah
author=Blindmind
author=pianotm
I love the graphics. I like the rough, unpolished, Super Nintendo look they have. It looks like it could have been on the SNES console. Don't get me wrong; the squeaky clean look of VX Ace has its charm, but 2k3 will always have my favorite graphics. Yes, there's a difference between it and 2000. RM2k has a somewhat more primitive look to it.
Basically this. The amount of resources available for 2k3 is simply unmatched.
You mean rips that we shouldn't be using?


Well, if you put it that way, the 2k3 engine is a rip we shouldn't be using.
aside from that (piracy), I don't think that resources that are pretty much taken from other commercial games as to why the engine is a good thing should be a point. I thought the idea of the topic is why you liked the engine.

Saying it that way though is like saying, it's because I can use rips as is and make my game pretty which is outside what the engine is made for. But I've been a meh person towards rips lately because of change of mentality. Since I'd argue XP/VX/Ace has a LOT MORE consistent and usable resources than 2k3 if we're talking about original works and how people contributed more legal materials for it.

(Funny enough, I immediately jumped to XP/VX despite the fact I used rm2k then 2k3 for a very short time.)
To be fair, there's a difference between using piracy to get a game that you can't get any other way vs ripping a game of it's assets to make the pretties.


And yes, I rip for the love of fangam. But still, point stands. XP
CashmereCat
Self-proclaimed Puzzle Snob
11638
author=Archeia_Nessiah
aside from that (piracy), I don't think that resources that are pretty much taken from other commercial games as to why the engine is a good thing should be a point. I thought the idea of the topic is why you liked the engine.

Saying it that way though is like saying, it's because I can use rips as is and make my game pretty. But I've been a meh person towards rips lately because of change of mentality.

(Funny enough, I immediately jumped to XP/VX despite the fact I used rm2k then 2k3 for a very short time.)


Oh, I see what you're saying. My bad. I thought you were saying that we shouldn't be using rips because it's illegal. But even so, you're right, original graphics are cool, and sometimes rips can be cool if used right, but don't expect to sell that game any time soon, and be liable for your own rips, etc. etc.

Personally I like to make my own resources just because. We used blatant rips for our McBacon jam team game but that wasn't really that serious a release and it was a fun exercise. In the future, I'm going with my own badly drawn custom art all the way.

Anyway, back to the 2k3 deal. I like 2k3:

  • Because it doesn't lag on my PC that much

  • Because it feels retro and nostalgic

  • For some reason, the controls feel more responsive when I play 2k3 games as opposed to when I play VX Ace games. It feels less clunky, more robust

  • The default resources are way prettier than VX Ace RTP, I gotta say. Even the best of VX Ace maps somehow look rather bland without some tweaking

  • This might be an erroneous answer, but probably because some games made using them are good. This was back in a time when people relied less on pre-made scripts, and sometimes some ingenious solutions came to the fore. Wither's menu was a simple evented one, but it was effective. Usually VX Ace games will default to the normal menu, because...

  • ...creating high definition resources is hard. Yes you can create lo-fi graphisc for VX Ace, but the style of movement doesn't always fit, and you have to make sure that everything, including windows and so on, are the right settings. On top of that, the pixel animations etc. will be high-definition animations, and you have to do a ton of workarounds to get that retro feel with VXA


That said, I am a VX Ace head, for many other reasons I won't mention here. But 2k3 can still be cool too.
charblar
"wait you made this a career?"
3574
author=Liberty
author=charblar
"It's Free to download now"
Not like we didn't ask for it to be legit for purchase in the past. I kinda feel upset every time I see people say that since I tried so hard to get the ball rolling on a legitimate English translation a few years back. We almost made it, too. :<

I wish it had worked. Imagine all the games being made commercial - good games at that! - from the 2k3 era. And it'd be something to give back after all these years of using the series for free (well, up to VX at least.)


That is true but what I meant is I think it's one of the engines most people looking to get into RPG Maker go to it as well as popular games around tumblr and other sites (Yumi Nikki, Pom gets Wifi, etc.) use it.
author=Archeia_Nessiah
aside from that (piracy), I don't think that resources that are pretty much taken from other commercial games as to why the engine is a good thing should be a point. I thought the idea of the topic is why you liked the engine.

Saying it that way though is like saying, it's because I can use rips as is and make my game pretty which is outside what the engine is made for. But I've been a meh person towards rips lately because of change of mentality. Since I'd argue XP/VX/Ace has a LOT MORE consistent and usable resources than 2k3 if we're talking about original works and how people contributed more legal materials for it.

(Funny enough, I immediately jumped to XP/VX despite the fact I used rm2k then 2k3 for a very short time.)


So according to your definition, RPGMaker is only meant to use the RTP or entirely original resources? Lol.

The plain fact is, many developers have valuable creative talents, but lack the artistic ability or spare time to design an entirely original set of game resources. It's a massive undertaking, and not everyone is an artist. Why should they be denied the chance to create their vision or tell their story?

To invalidate any developer that uses "rips" is to dismiss hundreds of great projects, many of which are the most popular games on this site. Why are we picking and choosing which form of piracy we're getting upset about? Lol I can't believe this discussion is even going on in 2015. Unless you're developing a commercial game, it's a null argument.
author=Blindmind
So according to your definition, RPGMaker is only meant to use the RTP or entirely original resources? Lol.

Actually I do, as an artist and developer. EVERY 'legit' (aka where many people participate in and is considered as a goto for game development as practice or whatever) indie game jam you see like Ludum Dare follows this same policy and public domain/copyright free/royalty free assets are fair game. In fact Ludum Dare is even more strict about this and only wants you to make original everything. Otherwise sites like OpenGameart won't exist. And no, they're not commercial but instead serves as an exercise to improve your abilities as a game designer/developer.

So no, no matter how you slice it, using rips is not a good thing as it is comparable to stealing hard work from other artists you didn't pay for to use that work, nor have they given permission for it. It can also be argued as using the look to promote a game and using that as a means to make a game stand on a pillar that makes it 'awesome.' instead of the developer's raw ability for level design, gameplay, or what have you. If making rips work is an 'ability' that should be seen in game development as extraordinary then I don't know what to say to that except it could cover some fields but it's not something as a standing ground to be proud about as being a developer.

To invalidate any developer that uses "rips" is to dismiss hundreds of great projects, many of which are the most popular games on this site.Why are we picking and choosing which form of piracy we're getting upset about? Lol I can't believe this discussion is even going on in 2015. Unless you're developing a commercial game, it's a null argument.

Don't put words in my mouth, first of all I'm not upset but asked a question that seems to be odd for this topic at hand nor am I dismissing any other projects especially when Libby and I have stated many times in our podcasts that it's a slippery slope to recommend to newbies as we want to enforce a different mindset which is improving their skills. :)


My point is, If a community has established well enough that everyone is making free legal resources for everyone to use especially when it's about helping developers to realize their vision, is invalidating the hardwork of those people by saying, I rather use rips than your contributions for the community. There are a multitude of styles already available for rpgmaker and other engines. And we're comparing it to the now and not just the state of RM back then, especially now that it is 2015. You compared it to the newer makers resource availability. By which I meant, you are wrong for saying to say that 2k3 is unparalleled in terms of resources to use that any developer can use without repercussions when the newer RMs has the same amount and more variation. So I daresay that your argument is null. And if that wasn't your goal or point, it sounds that way.

that being said, this entire post doesn't apply to I don't give any fucks hobbyists and don't have any serious plans to being a game developer, in which I say, feel free to ignore this.

TL;DR I just like discussing, don't take it as an attack or anything. And I am also extremely bored and banned from fun by the amount of work I have right now
Ratty524
The 524 is for 524 Stone Crabs
12986
What I like best about 2k3 is that there is an option to close the program.
author=Archeia_Nessiah
It can also be argued as using the look to promote a game and using that as a means to make a game stand on a pillar that makes it 'awesome.' instead of the developer's raw ability for level design, gameplay, or what have you. If making rips work is an 'ability' that should be seen in game development as extraordinary then I don't know what to say to that except it could cover some fields but it's not something as a standing ground to be proud about as being a developer.

My point is, If a community has established well enough that everyone is making free legal resources for everyone to use especially when it's about helping developers to realize their vision, is invalidating the hardwork of those people by saying, I rather use rips than your contributions for the community. There are a multitude of styles already available for rpgmaker and other engines. And we're comparing it to the now and not just the state of RM back then, especially when you compared it to the newer makers resource availability. By which I meant, you are wrong for saying to say that 2k3 is unparalleled in terms of resources to use that any developer can use without repercussions when the newer RMs has the same amount and more variation. So I daresay that your argument is null. And if that wasn't your goal or point, it sounds that way.

that being said, this entire post doesn't apply to I don't give any fucks hobbyists and don't have any serious plans to being a game developer, in which I say, feel free to ignore this.

also ps. I just like discussing, don't take it as an attack or anything. And I am also extremely bored and banned from fun by the amount of work I have right now

Lol, I don't take it as an attack. But I fundamentally disagree that there is any sort of "obligation" to use community-generated or free source material, when the reality is most of these projects are made for the developer's own personal satisfaction. Unless it's a matter of legality, there shouldn't be some artificial presumption that custom graphics are inherently superior. Whatever best serves the creative vision of the designer is what should be used, whether rips or otherwise. (You could argue that original graphics make for a more compelling experience, which I wouldn't disagree with though.)

But I do take offense that you would insinuate that "using rips is nothing to be proud of as a developer." So, if I spend 8 hours putting a map together, it's just a bunch of nonsense in your view?

Haha I dunno, perhaps as a pixel artist you see things differently? Clearly you have a lot of talent and invested the time to learn the skill... but not everyone wants to go that route. Think of it this way... have you ever seen a Quentin Tarantino film before? Have you ever been swept up in the excitement and dramatic bravado of it? The cinematic grandeur? Were you aware that none of his films use any original music or scoring whatsoever? He picks and chooses the exact songs that best lend drama to his films, pulling the scores out of older Hollywood movies. Does that undermine his films in any way, because he "rips" them from another source?

Not to take this too off topic... but my point is you have to consider the whole product and cumulative effect of a game. The visuals are merely one aspect. Not everyone is naturally gifted in the same way, or even cares to learn pixel art. (For those who make the effort, then great, more power to them...) But you seem to be painting games that use rips as "lazy" or a cheap way to get attention, which truly is a slippery slope... and simply not true.