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CREATING A FEELING OF HEALING ITEM SCARCITY
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unity
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CloseI want my next game to have a bit more of a desperate tone that the rest of mine, and I thought I might accomplish that by attempting to make healing and revival items seem to be in short supply. I'm trying to brainstorm on how to accomplish this.
Of course, I could just go the Dragon Quest route and make the good healing and revival items in really rare supply. I've already thought of making it so you can't buy healing items (or maybe you just can't buy any except the lowest tier of them?)
Or, I could go more of a survival-horror route and check and see if the characters already have a decent supply of healing items whenever they open a chest. If they have plenty, then maybe I can give them something non-healing that's hopefully useful, and if not, give them a much-needed healing item.
Does anyone else have any ideas? I feel like maybe I'm overlooking some other solution. Thanks :D
Of course, I could just go the Dragon Quest route and make the good healing and revival items in really rare supply. I've already thought of making it so you can't buy healing items (or maybe you just can't buy any except the lowest tier of them?)
Or, I could go more of a survival-horror route and check and see if the characters already have a decent supply of healing items whenever they open a chest. If they have plenty, then maybe I can give them something non-healing that's hopefully useful, and if not, give them a much-needed healing item.
Does anyone else have any ideas? I feel like maybe I'm overlooking some other solution. Thanks :D
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
It really depends on what the alternatives, if any, to healing items there are. How many healing skills does the party have? If there are save points, do they restore the party? If either of those ideas are present, there's not much to be done to make healing items feel scarce, as there are plenty of other options.
In general though, I like limiting the amount of items you can carry in your inventory, either by limiting the amount of a specific item you can carry (like the Tales of games) or impose a hard number of items and each item taking up one slot (like Legend of Dragoon). Personally, I'd go for the latter option since you would have to ration space for not just healing items, but whatever else you may need to carry. Play it right, and the players themselves will be limiting how many healing items they bring along, and that will create plenty of tension without much effort on your part.
In general though, I like limiting the amount of items you can carry in your inventory, either by limiting the amount of a specific item you can carry (like the Tales of games) or impose a hard number of items and each item taking up one slot (like Legend of Dragoon). Personally, I'd go for the latter option since you would have to ration space for not just healing items, but whatever else you may need to carry. Play it right, and the players themselves will be limiting how many healing items they bring along, and that will create plenty of tension without much effort on your part.
I'm planning on most of the characters having healing skills, but I'm trying to plan limits around them, like cooldowns and etc.
However, I think you may have hit on the biggest issue. I was going to have spots here and there that restore the player. That kind of undercuts the item scarcity bit if you can just backtrack to heal (though you will have to fight more monsters). Hmm.
However, I think you may have hit on the biggest issue. I was going to have spots here and there that restore the player. That kind of undercuts the item scarcity bit if you can just backtrack to heal (though you will have to fight more monsters). Hmm.
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
Perhaps only have each save point heal once? That's simple enough to do. However, if you're going to go for a feeling of desperation, then I'd suggest cutting one of those three healing sources. Either no skills, save points don't restore health, or no healing items. With a variety of healing options, players know that, if one source is unavailable, another one will be right around the corner.
author=unityDragon Quest's healing items weren't in rare supply, more so they were heavily restricted. You could only get them in towns (and occasionally in dungeon chests but that isn't a reliable way to obtain them), and with the universally low gold income monsters give out, there were only so much you could purchase. Top it off with a cap on how many you could carry at one time, and the loss of half your gold on death, and you've got a pretty damn challenging game...
Of course, I could just go the Dragon Quest route and make the good healing and revival items in really rare supply. I've already thought of making it so you can't buy healing items (or maybe you just can't buy any except the lowest tier of them?)
Keep in mind, though, that DQ did it with a point. The healing items are there only so that you could stay out and grind monsters longer, in a game that discourages you from pushing yourself that hard. So it really depends on how well item scarcity works with you game.
I will say it's something you can easily screw up, though. Done right, and you definitely create that feeling of desperation you describe and allow for more strategic planning on the player's end, but at worst it can overwhelmingly frustrate players due to the increase difficulty it inherently brings.
LightningLord2
230
I occasionally observe that players won't even use healing items if they're drowning in them...
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Wild ARMs 3 does an interesting thing where healing items can't be purchased at all. You find tons of them, but it definitely creates a feeling of needing to save them for later. Then it's also design so that you pretty much can't win most boss battles without them, since you only have one other healing ability and there are restrictions on using it.
Late in the game, you can grow healing items at a farm, but it takes hours/days of real time with the system turned off. I didn't like that. It felt like it killed the whole item-conservation system. Also, it's way too easily abusable since people can just change their clock. And it punishes people for enjoying the game and wanting to keep playing.
Other games like Fire Emblem allow you to buy healing items, but give you a limited amount of gold, and the only way to get more gold is to progress in the story and find it (in treasure chests or dropped by bosses). I used this system in one of my games and it wasn't really enough to make healing items feel scarce on its own. It helped, but it probably needs to be combined with something else like a low maximum number of carryable healing items. On the surface this sounds like it would end up very similarly to Wild ARMs 3's system, but in practice, it feels a lot less limited. The player can choose to get more items by doing things like not buying accessories, and can return to town to buy more items if they need to.
Late in the game, you can grow healing items at a farm, but it takes hours/days of real time with the system turned off. I didn't like that. It felt like it killed the whole item-conservation system. Also, it's way too easily abusable since people can just change their clock. And it punishes people for enjoying the game and wanting to keep playing.
Other games like Fire Emblem allow you to buy healing items, but give you a limited amount of gold, and the only way to get more gold is to progress in the story and find it (in treasure chests or dropped by bosses). I used this system in one of my games and it wasn't really enough to make healing items feel scarce on its own. It helped, but it probably needs to be combined with something else like a low maximum number of carryable healing items. On the surface this sounds like it would end up very similarly to Wild ARMs 3's system, but in practice, it feels a lot less limited. The player can choose to get more items by doing things like not buying accessories, and can return to town to buy more items if they need to.
author=unity
However, I think you may have hit on the biggest issue. I was going to have spots here and there that restore the player. That kind of undercuts the item scarcity bit if you can just backtrack to heal (though you will have to fight more monsters). Hmm.
author=Red_Nova
I'd suggest cutting one of those three healing sources. Either no skills, save points don't restore health, or no healing items. With a variety of healing options, players know that, if one source is unavailable, another one will be right around the corner.
Cutting out sources won't really cause scarcity. The amount of ways you heal isn't related to how often you can heal.
Skills cost MP? Limit MP and have it extremely difficult to restore.
Save points restoring health? As you said, have them restore once per visit.
Healing items are probably the most important bit. I tend to price them really expensively on shops, because I want the player to not rely on items, but rely on their skills and party loadout! This does have the slight side effect of healing items being somewhat scarce, but it doesn't necessarily make healing itself a difficult thing to do.
Value the items highly - both in shop price, scenario, and in placing them in treasure chests/rewards. In addition to that, make the player aware that they just can't simply use it up and buy more.
Making the party/NPCs acknowledge the scarcity of healing items alone would make a pretty big difference!
more edits:
Of course, having them scarce would also mean making them worth using - players would simply outright ignore healing items if they were already hard to get and didn't even heal much.
The healing spots come from a dubious source. Perhaps I could use this in gameplay turns by tying in a consequence system. Perhaps a bar that fills up as you use them, and slowly depletes over time, and if you fill the bar too much, something really unfortunate happens.
author=Ratty524author=unityDragon Quest's healing items weren't in rare supply, more so they were heavily restricted. You could only get them in towns (and occasionally in dungeon chests but that isn't a reliable way to obtain them), and with the universally low gold income monsters give out, there were only so much you could purchase. Top it off with a cap on how many you could carry at one time, and the loss of half your gold on death, and you've got a pretty damn challenging game...
Of course, I could just go the Dragon Quest route and make the good healing and revival items in really rare supply. I've already thought of making it so you can't buy healing items (or maybe you just can't buy any except the lowest tier of them?)
Keep in mind, though, that DQ did it with a point. The healing items are there only so that you could stay out and grind monsters longer, in a game that discourages you from pushing yourself that hard. So it really depends on how well item scarcity works with you game.
I will say it's something you can easily screw up, though. Done right, and you definitely create that feeling of desperation you describe and allow for more strategic planning on the player's end, but at worst it can overwhelmingly frustrate players due to the increase difficulty it inherently brings.
Good points. There's a lot more to it then what I'm considering. I want to get this right in the idea phase so I can implement it with minimal player frustrations.
I think Rhyme's idea to convey the scarcity to the audience and to make the healing items you get actually useful would help there.
author=LockeZ
Wild ARMs 3 does an interesting thing where healing items can't be purchased at all. You find tons of them, but it definitely creates a feeling of needing to save them for later. Then it's also design so that you pretty much can't win most boss battles without them, since you only have one other healing ability and there are restrictions on using it.
Late in the game, you can grow healing items at a farm, but it takes hours/days of real time with the system turned off. I didn't like that. It felt like it killed the whole item-conservation system. Also, it's way too easily abusable since people can just change their clock. And it punishes people for enjoying the game and wanting to keep playing.
Other games like Fire Emblem allow you to buy healing items, but give you a limited amount of gold, and the only way to get more gold is to progress in the story and find it (in treasure chests or dropped by bosses). I used this system in one of my games and it wasn't really enough to make healing items feel scarce on its own. It helped, but it probably needs to be combined with something else like a low maximum number of carryable healing items. On the surface this sounds like it would end up very similarly to Wild ARMs 3's system, but in practice, it feels a lot less limited. The player can choose to get more items by doing things like not buying accessories, and can return to town to buy more items if they need to.
I like the idea of limiting cash flow to keep things scarce. What if random encounters still provided some cash, but it was extremely small in comparison to what bosses dropped and/or what could occasionally be found in chests?
EDIT: Ooops, I posted again, when I meant to edit the first post! >.<;; Forgive me, please, Liberty!
You could go radical and simply completely cut off healing from your game (save from inns / save points?) and try to build your game around that.
I find that going the radical way and toning it down from there tends to give you far more interesting results than gradually toning things up.
I find that going the radical way and toning it down from there tends to give you far more interesting results than gradually toning things up.
Avee
5794
You could play through the game using as little healing as possible to test the battles and assess how much healing is then necessary to win a second battle.
Create a bunch of single target and multi target healing potions with infinite uses in order to run that test and write down how many times you need to use them.
Also, use the best battle strategies possible to defeat your foes.
That would give you an idea of how much healing is barely enough for a relatively good player in order to beat the game. Then you can decide how to distribute the healing methods and/or make them available at what price, etc.
Create a bunch of single target and multi target healing potions with infinite uses in order to run that test and write down how many times you need to use them.
Also, use the best battle strategies possible to defeat your foes.
That would give you an idea of how much healing is barely enough for a relatively good player in order to beat the game. Then you can decide how to distribute the healing methods and/or make them available at what price, etc.
Accidents happen. As long as you're aware.
I'm currently trying to do something like this in a game, too - except there's no healing items and only a dedicated healer. The only issue is that said healer dies too easily and then it's game over because there's no way to bring them back.
...I've a bit of work to do on that still.
You can always have negatives attached to the healing - say it lowers your defence to heal or something like that. You could have equipment that give regen bonuses so that you don't have to rely on healing items too much and they're handy only in emergencies. You could make it so that at the end of each battle you get a %heal.
The idea is to balance having less items with offsetting the damage taken. Maybe you could have MP healing items mostly, with a few HP healing items here and there and have people forced to use healing skills instead.
I'm currently trying to do something like this in a game, too - except there's no healing items and only a dedicated healer. The only issue is that said healer dies too easily and then it's game over because there's no way to bring them back.
...I've a bit of work to do on that still.
You can always have negatives attached to the healing - say it lowers your defence to heal or something like that. You could have equipment that give regen bonuses so that you don't have to rely on healing items too much and they're handy only in emergencies. You could make it so that at the end of each battle you get a %heal.
The idea is to balance having less items with offsetting the damage taken. Maybe you could have MP healing items mostly, with a few HP healing items here and there and have people forced to use healing skills instead.
LightningLord2
230
A few things I've seen to make healing more limited:
-Inazuma Eleven lets you hold on all restoration items, but you can only use 3 of them each match.
-D&D 4th Edition uses healing surges, forcing you to spend one if you want to get healed. The only exception is the Paladin, who can heal others by expending his own healing surge rather than the target's.
-Terraria bars the use of recovery items for 60 seconds when you use one, though this cooldown can be reduced to 45 by an accessory.
-Dragon Quest limits the amount of items you can use during any given battle with the character-specific inventory.
Lastly, make sure the healer has enough resources and power to be worth using - I often see it in RPGs that healing skills are character-locked, weaker than the items and force me to bring a character who can't do anything other than heal. Items could be used by anyone, are stronger and don't effectively erase a character slot in my party.
EDIT: My own game has you equip consumables like accessories, which grant you a certain skill for a limited amount of times you can use it, refilling after each battle. This limits how many times you can use it, who can use it and also saves the hassle of having to rebuy the items.
-Inazuma Eleven lets you hold on all restoration items, but you can only use 3 of them each match.
-D&D 4th Edition uses healing surges, forcing you to spend one if you want to get healed. The only exception is the Paladin, who can heal others by expending his own healing surge rather than the target's.
-Terraria bars the use of recovery items for 60 seconds when you use one, though this cooldown can be reduced to 45 by an accessory.
-Dragon Quest limits the amount of items you can use during any given battle with the character-specific inventory.
Lastly, make sure the healer has enough resources and power to be worth using - I often see it in RPGs that healing skills are character-locked, weaker than the items and force me to bring a character who can't do anything other than heal. Items could be used by anyone, are stronger and don't effectively erase a character slot in my party.
EDIT: My own game has you equip consumables like accessories, which grant you a certain skill for a limited amount of times you can use it, refilling after each battle. This limits how many times you can use it, who can use it and also saves the hassle of having to rebuy the items.
author=LibertyNegatives attached to healing skills will generally discourage the player from using them, not limiting it. %heals at the end of a battle kinda work against the feeling of desperation so I wouldn't advise to go with it!
You can always have negatives attached to the healing - say it lowers your defence to heal or something like that. You could have equipment that give regen bonuses so that you don't have to rely on healing items too much and they're handy only in emergencies. You could make it so that at the end of each battle you get a %heal.
The idea is to balance having less items with offsetting the damage taken. Maybe you could have MP healing items mostly, with a few HP healing items here and there and have people forced to use healing skills instead.
Having less items can also be balanced by having items actually be useful! It further enforces the elixir mindset since "it took me so much effort to get a mere potion might as well save it for when i really need it" - but of course, the game must also actively push toward encouraging the players to use items so that they stay in low stock!
The value of healing items can be inferred by first figuring out the "cost" of all the other methods of healing:
Healing skills cost MP - a precious resource that can't be (or is difficult to be) restored mid-dungeon, and is shared with skills. The player has to decide whether the MP is better spent on healing or defeating the next encounter.
Healing points may be free but they're static in position - in order to progress, the player must leave the healing point, and the further the player goes, the farther the healing point is. Backtracking and having to encounter all those enemies again - is it worth the time and potential damage the party might take?
Healing items are consumable - you can run out of them! This is the choice a player would choose if they don't want to spend MP or want to backtrack (or if it's even possible to)! In addition, they don't cost MP in battle either, and any member can use it to heal, especially the party members with no healing spell. This is what makes healing items pretty desirable, so if you want the player to stay low on healing items, have them be hard to obtain, and give them incentive to use them. Make them worth the effort!
edit:
basically
make healing items the easy way out but make them hard to get!
author=LightningLord2
A few things I've seen to make healing more limited:
-Inazuma Eleven lets you hold on all restoration items, but you can only use 3 of them each match.
-D&D 4th Edition uses healing surges, forcing you to spend one if you want to get healed. The only exception is the Paladin, who can heal others by expending his own healing surge rather than the target's.
-Terraria bars the use of recovery items for 60 seconds when you use one, though this cooldown can be reduced to 45 by an accessory.
-Dragon Quest limits the amount of items you can use during any given battle with the character-specific inventory.
This doesn't cause the feeling of healing item scarcity. It only applies somewhat arbitrary rules regarding when you can heal or not. It dictates how often the player can use them, but doesn't dictate how often the player will find healing items.
From what I understand, unity isn't trying to limit healing itself, but simply making it harder for the player to stockpile healing items.
LightningLord2
230
Well then, Super Mario RPG only allows you to carry 30 items in total - collecting another will force you to discard one (you may discard the item you got obviously). While I haven't played it, I heard Earthbound has such a limited inventory, too.
Personally, I'm not too fond of finite resources in an RPG - it makes it possible to run into an unwinnable situation because you no longer have enough resources and can't get any, forcing you to reset the entire game.
Personally, I'm not too fond of finite resources in an RPG - it makes it possible to run into an unwinnable situation because you no longer have enough resources and can't get any, forcing you to reset the entire game.
I've often found that i prefer to use healing items before healing skills because MP is more difficult to replenish, making it my last resource. If healing items are not obtained via purchase in shops and you don't want to give the player healing skills or spells, perhaps it would be a good way to have them be pickups that can regenerate after a while. For instance, say that you can pick up healing herbs, but you cannot pick anymore because they have to grow back. But once they do, you can pick them up again, like berries in pokemon.
The only thing i can advice against doing is punishing the player too much or not giving the player a way to succeed despite all the odds, because restricting healing items, while giving way to desperation, also makes opportunities of saving the game at a point where you're too low on HP and have no way of healing, making the game unwinnable.
The feature of healing being scarce reminds me of medievil, where there was a healing fountain that ran out the more you used it until it dried up.
The only thing i can advice against doing is punishing the player too much or not giving the player a way to succeed despite all the odds, because restricting healing items, while giving way to desperation, also makes opportunities of saving the game at a point where you're too low on HP and have no way of healing, making the game unwinnable.
The feature of healing being scarce reminds me of medievil, where there was a healing fountain that ran out the more you used it until it dried up.
Housekeeping
3571
Unity, have you played Dhux's Scar? That game limits save point heals to one like has been discussed. It also has some other interesting resources/mechanics, so it might be worth looking into for inspiration (and it's just a solid rpg maker game).
author=JosephSeraph
You could go radical and simply completely cut off healing from your game (save from inns / save points?) and try to build your game around that.
I find that going the radical way and toning it down from there tends to give you far more interesting results than gradually toning things up.
That certainly is a viable strategy. I'll think about it, but I'm not sure it completely fits with what I have in mind. I'll think about it, though. Thanks :D
author=Liberty
Accidents happen. As long as you're aware.
I'm currently trying to do something like this in a game, too - except there's no healing items and only a dedicated healer. The only issue is that said healer dies too easily and then it's game over because there's no way to bring them back.
...I've a bit of work to do on that still.
You can always have negatives attached to the healing - say it lowers your defence to heal or something like that. You could have equipment that give regen bonuses so that you don't have to rely on healing items too much and they're handy only in emergencies. You could make it so that at the end of each battle you get a %heal.
The idea is to balance having less items with offsetting the damage taken. Maybe you could have MP healing items mostly, with a few HP healing items here and there and have people forced to use healing skills instead.
The "heal a certain %" after battle idea might work well here. And I definitely like the idea of limiting healing somehow. LouisCyphre's Essence Enforcer did neat stuff with that, with a powerful healing move that would make healing not work on you for a couple of turns.
author=Rhyme
Negatives attached to healing skills will generally discourage the player from using them, not limiting it. %heals at the end of a battle kinda work against the feeling of desperation so I wouldn't advise to go with it!
Hmm, yeah. Now that you mention it, that might not be the best idea. I think limiting healing works, but only if the price for it isn't something that the player really needs. Like I think lowering attack power in return for being healed won't work well, but maybe cooldowns or the aforementioned Essence Enforcer method could work, maybe?
author=Rhyme
Having less items can also be balanced by having items actually be useful! It further enforces the elixir mindset since "it took me so much effort to get a mere potion might as well save it for when i really need it" - but of course, the game must also actively push toward encouraging the players to use items so that they stay in low stock!
The value of healing items can be inferred by first figuring out the "cost" of all the other methods of healing:
Healing skills cost MP - a precious resource that can't be (or is difficult to be) restored mid-dungeon, and is shared with skills. The player has to decide whether the MP is better spent on healing or defeating the next encounter.
Healing points may be free but they're static in position - in order to progress, the player must leave the healing point, and the further the player goes, the farther the healing point is. Backtracking and having to encounter all those enemies again - is it worth the time and potential damage the party might take?
Healing items are consumable - you can run out of them! This is the choice a player would choose if they don't want to spend MP or want to backtrack (or if it's even possible to)! In addition, they don't cost MP in battle either, and any member can use it to heal, especially the party members with no healing spell. This is what makes healing items pretty desirable, so if you want the player to stay low on healing items, have them be hard to obtain, and give them incentive to use them. Make them worth the effort!
edit:
basically
make healing items the easy way out but make them hard to get!
Thank you, this advice is very good. :D This is all helping me think on it a lot.
Hmm... I want desperation but also don't want to completely screw players over either. I don't think anyone has mentioned the idea of whether giving players more healing items in chests but only if they're low on them is a good idea or a bad one. Or perhaps I could just have an NPC who will give you a healing item but only if you have none?
author=Housekeeping
Unity, have you played Dhux's Scar? That game limits save point heals to one like has been discussed. It also has some other interesting resources/mechanics, so it might be worth looking into for inspiration (and it's just a solid rpg maker game).
I absolutely love Dhux's Scar, and you're absolutely right! I may go replay it to get a refresher, as I don't remember exactly how it did save points, but that game was fantastic at creating a sense of desperation with mechanics (and was really bloody difficult, for me at least XD).
author=unity
Hmm... I want desperation but also don't want to completely screw players over either. I don't think anyone has mentioned the idea of whether giving players more healing items in chests but only if they're low on them is a good idea or a bad one. Or perhaps I could just have an NPC who will give you a healing item but only if you have none?
If you can't get screwed over, you can't get desperate.
