HEALTH BARS IN RPGS: AN ACTUAL GAME DESIGN DISCUSSION

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LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
What are your preferences regarding visible health bars for enemies, specifically in turn-based games such as RPGs?

More important than your preferences, what types of games do you think need to show enemy health bars, or at least benefit from it? Are there games you think don't?

Does it matter if it's just a bar, or numbers, or both? When do you think it's appropriate to show them on screen all the time, versus having to press a key to bring up enemy data, versus having to spend a turn scanning the enemy, or equip a Sightscope accessory, or defeat ten of the enemy to unlock the bestiary entry?

In Final Fantasy Tactics, and most other tactical RPGs, the enemy health - and MP, and attack, and defense, and speed, and class, and passive skills - is visible any time the player is selecting an enemy to target. FF Tactics would not function as a game without this information being available to the player. The main point of the game is evaluating the situation in detail, and making tactical decisions based on that information. Even partial failure is heavily punished - it's possible for the player's party members to permanently die. The main theme of the game is the ability to read the situation at a master level and plan a complex strategy accordingly - this theme extends into the storyline as well, which is all about Larg and Goltana and Delita's plots and counter-plots.

To some extent, this sorta applies to the entire RPG genre. Almost any time a turn-based RPGs is meant to be challenging, the challenge revolves around the player figuring out the best strategy to deal with enemies - that's why they're turn-based, to give the player time to think. However, that's not always true. And in some cases you might intentionally want the player to have to figure out that information on their own instead of being given it for free, which in certain types of games can add another layer of strategy (though only a tiny fraction of players actually enjoy figuring out things like damage algorithms).

At the opposite end of the spectrum is Super Mario RPG. This game doesn't have health bars and doesn't need them. In fact, while adding health bars to Mario RPG wouldn't cause as many problems as removing them from FF Tactics, I'd argue that adding them would make the game less fun. One of the most noteworthy features of Mario RPG, and the main way it maintains the player's attention and enjoyment, is that it is constantly throwing new, unexpected things at the player. There are dozens of crazy minigames, between dungeons and even in the middle of them sometimes, where the player suddenly stops fighting enemies and instead rides a mine cart or slides down a waterfall or hops over barrels while chasing Booster up a hill. The dungeons are full of platforming segments that never do the same thing twice, and even the RPG combat never lingers long enough to let the player really become comfortable with a strategy. Everything is new, new, new, all the time. (And it's good that it is, because the RPG combat is extremely simplistic and would become boring fast otherwise.) Adding visible HP bars would let the player predict some aspects of the rest of the battle, see a few steps ahead, which would actually interfere with that main goal of keeping the player in a constant state of wonder.

Other types games where you might want to restrict that information are games which have an overarching theme of being kept in the dark. This would be true in almost any horror game, as well as games which might have a story about the protagonist being stepped on by people who control the world's information. Giving out information about the enemy would not go well with the theme of such a game.

I think in many non-tactical RPGs, it doesn't really matter one way or the other whether the player can see enemy HP at all. There are far more games where it's useful to add it than games where it's useful to hide it, though.
Sailerius
did someone say angels
3214
As a player, I can't imagine playing a game that doesn't show me health bars, although it's less a matter of what it adds or removes to the gameplay and more about usability affordances. If I start fighting a boss and I see that my attacks aren't chipping much damage off its HP, then I know I'm in for a long battle and sometimes, I just don't have the time or energy to commit to a long boss fight, so I put the game down until I have the time to get through it.

As a designer, I don't see any reason to hide information from the player if it would be useful, because all you're accomplishing is making the player roll their eyes and look it up on their phone. This is especially true if you have a mechanic that makes it cost the player something to look this information up (such as spells or consumable items that reveal HP).
unity
You're magical to me.
12540
In the past, I didn't like health bars, but the more games I play with them in, the more I like them. It's fulfilling to see how much damage you're doing relative to the enemies' max HP.

Hmm, I wonder if health bars add to the game I'm making. I've added them in because I like how it feels, and for the reason of players' not having to waste resources on a monster that's almost dead.

But what about last bosses? I kind of want to hide the HP bar on the last boss because it'll add tension. I feel like having that tension and feeling of the unknown in a last boss is important. But does that really add something, or just annoy players?
Ratty524
The 524 is for 524 Stone Crabs
12986
I like your argument for Super Mario RPG, or really any of the Mario RPGs because they do a good job in taking your mind off the fact that a health counter is displayed. Even better, the Mario series generally avoids using large numbers for any kind of stat. In Paper Mario, you know a Goomba has around 3~4 HP because you are hitting it two times to kill it, doing around 2 damage per hit, and the math can be calculated easy.

Aside from that, I'm on the same page as Sailerius about this. For me it's not really about the chore of googling it, however , rather that I fail to see any legitimate reason not to include any health indicator on enemies from a design standpoint. It just feels like you are hiding something for the sake of hiding it, and if you don't want players to care about how much HP an enemy has, why make stats as a whole matter in your game?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
If you really want to show HP for the rest of the game but hide it for one specific boss, it's just a matter of making that boss transform when it hits 0 HP.

I certainly didn't expect the baby-gamer entitlement of "all games NEED visible health bars" in a community of old fogies and fans of classic 2D games though. That's something I associate with needy young middle schoolders who can't handle not being handed everything on a silver platter. Back in my day, we had to spend a round casting Peep, and then write down the number and keep track of how much damage each hit after that dealt! With no shoes! And by golly it was good enough and we were thankful!

I don't think anyone is really looking up enemy HP on their phone except for maybe a maximum of one or two bosses per game though. When you get in a random battle with two Goblin Archers and an Earth Elemental it's just not worth it. And there is a little bit of tension that's added to the battle by wondering how long you have left, and a little bit of satisfaction the player receives when they fight the same enemy again later in the dungeon and they know how long it'll take because they've learned and are now better at the game.
unity
You're magical to me.
12540
author=LockeZ
I certainly didn't expect the baby-gamer entitlement of "all games NEED visible health bars" in a community of old fogies and fans of classic 2D games though. That's something I associate with needy young middle schoolders who can't handle not being handed everything on a silver platter. Back in my day, we had to spend a round casting Peep, and then write down the number and keep track of how much damage each hit after that dealt! With no shoes! And by golly it was good enough and we were thankful!


Yeah, I agree. I feel like that if the early Final Fantasies, Dragon Quest, Earthbound, etc didn't have health bars, then they're probably not a necessity, plus I agree with you that Mario RPG certainly doesn't need them. However, they work nicely in other games, and I kinda like seeing the HP bars in Breath of Fire games after you've killed an enemy once in battle before ^_^
Ratty524
The 524 is for 524 Stone Crabs
12986
author=LockeZ
I don't think anyone is really looking up enemy HP on their phone except for maybe a maximum of one or two bosses per game though. When you get in a random battle with two Goblin Archers and an Earth Elemental it's just not worth it. And there is a little bit of tension that's added to the battle by wondering how long you have left, and a little bit of satisfaction the player receives when they fight the same enemy again later in the dungeon and they know how long it'll take because they've learned and are now better at the game.
I fail to see how adding any sort of health indication takes away from that. You're still learning something by having the HP displayed on an enemy. The only difference between that and memorizing/looking it up yourself is that it's quicker.

Also, I think a majority of the tension that comes from battles is from the enemies themselves or the core game mechanics rather than whether a stat is hidden or not. Heck, let's use a non-rpg example. Do we honestly remember the exact numerical value of the Yellow Devil's HP in Mega Man? Did we care? The battle still felt tense, however, because it put not only your timing abilities to the test, but also your level of endurance with how the boss' weakpoint would spawn at random points and the main attack of dodging those blobs it tosses at you. I don't think any tension could truly be lost by keeping a health indicator hidden.

EDIT: Keep in mind, I don't really think games absolutely must have health indicators to make them good, it's just that I don't see a good reason why you shouldn't.
When I was your age this was my phone for looking up enemy HP!
unity
You're magical to me.
12540
author=kentona
When I was your age this was my phone for looking up enemy HP!

Oh man, kentona! I wish I still had my copy of that! :D

EDIT: Well, I say "my" but it belonged to my brothers, too XD
author=unity
author=kentona
When I was your age this was my phone for looking up enemy HP!
Oh man, kentona! I wish I still had my copy of that! :D

Same. :( I have no idea where it went. Along with the placard that told you what level you should be at for each quest.
unity
You're magical to me.
12540
author=kentona
author=unity
author=kentona
When I was your age this was my phone for looking up enemy HP!
Oh man, kentona! I wish I still had my copy of that! :D
Same. :( I have no idea where it went. Along with the placard that told you what level you should be at for each quest.


Yeah ;_; My brother sold all of our childhood gaming systems and games, but we may have lost it even before then. So nostalgic!
Ratty524
The 524 is for 524 Stone Crabs
12986
author=kentona
When I was your age this was my phone for looking up enemy HP!

"Werewolf - A real dog of an opponent"
This is just glorious.
unity
You're magical to me.
12540
author=Ratty524
author=kentona
When I was your age this was my phone for looking up enemy HP!
"Werewolf - A real dog of an opponent"
This is just glorious.

Looking at the art as a kid, I always wondered why knights have slits in their crotch-armor. >.>;;
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
32347
LockeZ
I certainly didn't expect the baby-gamer entitlement of "all games NEED visible health bars" in a community of old fogies and fans of classic 2D games though. That's something I associate with needy young middle schoolders who can't handle not being handed everything on a silver platter. Back in my day, we had to spend a round casting Peep, and then write down the number and keep track of how much damage each hit after that dealt! With no shoes! And by golly it was good enough and we were thankful!


They'll take THAC0 and they'll like it!

Seriously though, I've never felt a need for health bars in any of the games I play. Frankly, I find them a distraction. I feel you can't help but focus on them when you should be focusing on other things. It's like it becomes a ticking clock. You're waiting for it to reach zero. I guess they're necessary for real time combat, where as you said, you don't necessarily have time to think, but beyond that, I feel like they're in the way.
junks gotta breathe, mang
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
32347
unity
Looking at the art as a kid, I always wondered why knights have slits in their crotch-armor. >.>;;


I always thought it was for drainage.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Ratty524
Keep in mind, I don't really think games absolutely must have health indicators to make them good, it's just that I don't see a good reason why you shouldn't.
It's typically not enough of a good reason on its own. However, when combined with several other reasons that aren't good enough on their own, it might lead to the decision to hide enemy health in your game.


author=unity
I kinda like seeing the HP bars in Breath of Fire games after you've killed an enemy once in battle before ^_^
This is definitely a very nice thing that tangibly feels like PROGRESS! and OBJECTIVE COMPLETE! to the player. However, a side-effect is that bosses won't have visible HP bars, unless you handle them differently somehow.

FF13 had an interesting solution - you could gather bestiary data on an enemy either by spending a certain amount of time in combat against that enemy, or by casting Libra. The amount of time it took in combat was several battles worth for normal enemies, but you'd learn everything about a boss by about halfway through the battle, gradually learning its status immunities and elemental resistances as you used more and more skills on it. Libra could speed this up, but was a limit break skill that you could only cast once every three or four battles, and that prevented you from using more useful limit breaks. It got me to actually strategize around gathering the information, which I liked a lot, although it didn't fit particularly well in FF13 thematically.

I've also seen games where you can unlock the ability to display enemy HP bars somehow, like buying it with gold. I've played at least one game where you can buy bestiary data for an entire dungeon from a library in town, or you can save gold by choosing to collect it yourself by defeating the enemies. Once data on an enemy is collected, its HP was visible, like in Breath of Fire.
I'm currently working on a game that has no health bars, but uses the Final Fantasy Mystic Quest route of showing the monster graphic in increasing states of despair. Additionally, the enemy's getting-hit animation is different based on how much damage is done relative to the enemy's maximum health, so players can easily see how effective an attack is.

Thanks to these two things working in concert, I don't even need to show absolute damage values.
author=Zachary_Braun
I'm currently working on a game that has no health bars, but uses the Final Fantasy Mystic Quest route of showing the monster graphic in increasing states of despair. Additionally, the enemy's getting-hit animation is different based on how much damage is done relative to the enemy's maximum health, so players can easily see how effective an attack is.

Thanks to these two things working in concert, I don't even need to show absolute damage values.


How about a Super Mario RPG approach? That game gave you a skill to be able to see how much HP an enemy has and if you got a timed hit, lets you see their thoughts as well (which is important for one boss fight).
Action game? Health bar (of some kind - whether that be hearts or candles or leaves or flower dying) necessary in a battle area.

RPG? In battle, maybe. If it fits your style and doesn't overcrowd the scene.

Tetris? GTFO

Honestly, the new craze of RPGs having Health bars show up on the map while you're outside of battle is beyond idiocy. Why do I need to know the health of my character when I'm running around on the field and picking up treasure? I mean, okay, fair enough if there's a spike trap or something, phase it in or out or something like that, but don't have it there lurking in the corner for no good reason, ffs. I like to be able to see the whole map!

If your HP is going to change, then have it show, otherwise hide that shit. We don't need to know that I'm on 53/200 HP when I'm running through town, thanks. I can check that shit in the menu. Besides - we're in a fucking town. Where we're safe. From taking damage.

Of course, if we're talking battles, well I don't really care as long as there's some kind of reconisable source to tell me how close I am to death. Personally I prefer numbers over bars because then I can calculate. Maths. Yay. Who knew it'd come in handy for gammak and gamplay.

Me. Me knew.

As for enemies... for me I appreciate health bars for them but I ain't gonna demand them be put in. It both adds and detracts from battles. Personally, I don't use them. It's usually hard to get them set up in a way that isn't weird (floating over/under an enemy? Ew.) I did like them in Breath of Fire II, how they were in a list and only applicable after you'd already killed a monster (and never showing the boss's HP, just a ? over the bar because fuck you that's why. That's the way I roll~)

They can kill suspense in a game, but they can also help you see how strong you are. I'd say if you have longer battles then put them in so that players can see their success easily, but if you have short battles, then don't. Reason being, you don't need to see a bar when you kill an enemy in three turns - you already know how long the enemy takes to die. Three turns. But say the enemy takes between 7-13 turns to die, it's hard to gauge that beyond 'this asshole has too much HP goddamnit'.

It also depends if you're going to allow enemy states to be seen and other information. If so, then showing their HP makes sense. I mean, you might as well, right? Especially if status effects are a big deal in your game and lend a lot to the strategy of battle.

There's a bunch of classic games that do use them and a bunch that don't. Honestly, the best question to ask is "Does it fit the design of my game?"


(And I'll cop to having looked up certain enemies' HP in the manuals for particular games, but most of the time it was a case of 'Wail on the enemy til that bitch be dead, yo')
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