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PROFESSIONALISM, NOW WITH LESS EXIT FATE
Posts
S. F. LaValle
1081
S. F. LaValle
Closeauthor=Blindmind link=topic=3159.msg62004#msg62004 date=1234755329Agreed. We can ask Holb to create a "bump your topic here" forum if that's what people want, but that's not going to help people get their games done. Real advertising belongs on the front page of the site, and requires playable games for the people passing by the site to download, which is the audience we should really be advertising to. The problem with the forums is that we're all advertising games to people who want to advertise their own games. Ideally, we could be helping each other grow as game developers.
Please no.
Neophyte
132
author=S. F. LaValle link=topic=3159.msg62008#msg62008 date=1234755997And here is the other main issue. Most of the people here are advertising to game developers and not people who want a freeware game to pick up and play, which doesn't work!
requires playable games for the people passing by the site to download, which is the audience we should really be advertising to. The problem with the forums is that we're all advertising games to people who want to advertise their own games. Ideally, we could be helping each other grow as game developers.
Blindmind
373
author=S. F. LaValle link=topic=3159.msg62008#msg62008 date=1234755997Right, this. The issue with advertising in our community, in addition to what Neophyte said, is essentially that it's pretty much begun to come at the expense of making quality projects. Everyone's so stubbornly competitive that members are almost inherently conditioned to have the mindset of "What will people like?" or "How popular will this be?" rather than what could lead to genuine substance. WIP's argument is that having such large emphasis on a COMMUNITY FORUM only fosters this line of thinking, and I can't say I disagree.
Agreed. We can ask Holb to create a "bump your topic here" forum if that's what people want, but that's not going to help people get their games done. Real advertising belongs on the front page of the site, and requires playable games for the people passing by the site to download, which is the audience we should really be advertising to.
I know there are certain members among us who believe that the idea of COMMUNITY should be our foremost aspiration in terms of developing the site, but this idea is fundamentally flawed. A worthwhile website cannot exist without a specified, structured purpose, and RMN's is making games. (Not having silly, senseless forum topics.) If the goal itself is successful, the community almost automatically is established, and I wish more people could consider that.
Shadowtext
120
author=Blindmind link=topic=3159.msg62016#msg62016 date=1234758037I don't think that's the problem. Trying to entertain the audience....I mean that's the whole point in making a game. The issue is more about how people are trying to make their game popular at the expense of spending time making it entertaining.
Everyone's so stubbornly competitive that members are almost inherently conditioned to have the mindset of "What will people like?" rather than what will lead to genuine substance.
Blindmind
373
author=Shadowtext link=topic=3159.msg62017#msg62017 date=1234758280Well, right, this was pretty much what I was getting at. =[
The issue is more about how people are trying to make their game popular at the expense of spending time making it entertaining.
(I think you just worded it more clearly than I did.)
AznChipmunk
4243
huh, WIP is Christian Bale?
psst, am I progfressional?
EDIT: On a more serious note, I do totally despise things like devlogs and advertisement topics. They should be obliterated to make way for people who release stuff.
I mean, I haven't ever posted a game topic without releasing and my games don't get noticed as much as some of the real well-known ones, but, idk, posting advertisement topics everywhere feels d-dirty
Also, I think screenshot topics are a major problem because there is never enough criticism. Most of what I see is "hey looks good" which doesn't really help at all (which should be the purpose of showing screenshots: receiving feedback.)
psst, am I progfressional?
EDIT: On a more serious note, I do totally despise things like devlogs and advertisement topics. They should be obliterated to make way for people who release stuff.
I mean, I haven't ever posted a game topic without releasing and my games don't get noticed as much as some of the real well-known ones, but, idk, posting advertisement topics everywhere feels d-dirty
Also, I think screenshot topics are a major problem because there is never enough criticism. Most of what I see is "hey looks good" which doesn't really help at all (which should be the purpose of showing screenshots: receiving feedback.)
Shadowtext
120
author=AznChipmunk link=topic=3159.msg62020#msg62020 date=1234758652I'm kinda okay with development blogs, but then I think of them as more something to be kept for the purposes of a post-mortem resource. When the project's done (remember, this is a hypothetical situation), going back and looking at the blog can help you figure out what you did right, and what you did wrong. Keeping them as a way of building up interest for the project is silly, but keeping them so as to just have a chronicle of the development process seems entirely reasonable to me.
huh, WIP is Christian Bale?
psst, am I progfressional?
EDIT: On a more serious note, I do totally despise things like devlogs and advertisement topics. They should be obliterated to make way for people who release stuff.
I mean, I haven't ever posted a game topic without releasing and my games don't get noticed as much as some of the real well-known ones, but, idk, posting advertisement topics everywhere feels d-dirty
Also, I think screenshot topics are a major problem because there is never enough criticism. Most of what I see is "hey looks good" which doesn't really help at all (which should be the purpose of showing screenshots: receiving feedback.)
Of course they would work best with an ACTUAL post-mortem. Sorta like how Wikipedia works best with real research on top of it.
I've actually been completely against hype and demos just because I don't want to disappoint people who look at it if I do cancel the project. Which is why nobody has ever seen my work. I could understand posting a screenshot here and there in the screenshot thread, but hyping up a bunch of people just for a let-down is kinda jerkish. I'd rather be surprised with an amazing game than see it coming a mile away.
Reives
856
I fully agree with that the most effective way of finishing a game is to sit and work on it efficiently in solitude until it is done, in theory. However, the problem is; how many people have that kind of discipline? Different people are fueled by different causes in their development drive, and have different tolerances to their will to the completion of what they started. Sometimes, in some cases, I suppose hyping is merely the lesser of the two evil.
That being said, it can often go out of hand. An organized restraint and knowing self's very own boundaries are the keys. But again, easier said than done.
That being said, it can often go out of hand. An organized restraint and knowing self's very own boundaries are the keys. But again, easier said than done.
Blitzen
2561
The only reason people do advert topics is because they want attention. Or they are searching for positive reinforcement for a hobby that is so incredibly frivolous to make them feel better about wasting their time on something so fruitless.
I have no delusions about what I do. Its silly, its pointless, and its an entertaining waste of time. I'm long past the point where I might regard it as any kind of personal pursuit or investment, or that the fruits of my labour have any true objective worth.
I might share my work, but when I do, I do it for attention. To have people talk to me directly about an interest I have. Its completely selfish and self indulgent. I know this for a fact. Truthfully, I really don't care what you guys have to say about my work, because all I want to hear is the "looks cool, Blitzen".
Am I ever going to finish a game? I dunno. Do I care that you guys want me to finish a game? No. If I did, I'd feel bad about myself for pining for kudos from the internets to validate my self worth.
The "RM Industry" is such a joke. If anyone here really cared about "professionalism" they would probably be using a different medium to begin with.
That being said, I enjoy the hobby, but if you find yourself pining for replies in your advert topic day after day maybe you need another source of personal validation.
I have no delusions about what I do. Its silly, its pointless, and its an entertaining waste of time. I'm long past the point where I might regard it as any kind of personal pursuit or investment, or that the fruits of my labour have any true objective worth.
I might share my work, but when I do, I do it for attention. To have people talk to me directly about an interest I have. Its completely selfish and self indulgent. I know this for a fact. Truthfully, I really don't care what you guys have to say about my work, because all I want to hear is the "looks cool, Blitzen".
Am I ever going to finish a game? I dunno. Do I care that you guys want me to finish a game? No. If I did, I'd feel bad about myself for pining for kudos from the internets to validate my self worth.
The "RM Industry" is such a joke. If anyone here really cared about "professionalism" they would probably be using a different medium to begin with.
That being said, I enjoy the hobby, but if you find yourself pining for replies in your advert topic day after day maybe you need another source of personal validation.
myersguy
292
Blitzen pretty much has it right, except I don't really agree with "The 'RM Industry' is such a joke", because I believe professionalism can, and does exist in the RM community. Heck, some games have even gone commercial, and have a paid staff working on them. They essentially show the same amount of professionalism as any other indie game out there by that point.
Having said that, obviously not everyone can pull such a thing off. My main point was simply that proffessionalism can be seen in the RM community, regardless of the fact that it is quite sparse.
Having said that, obviously not everyone can pull such a thing off. My main point was simply that proffessionalism can be seen in the RM community, regardless of the fact that it is quite sparse.
AznChipmunk
4243
There are only a very small handful of good RPGMaker games.
What are you talking about, Ara Fell?
author=myersguy link=topic=3159.msg62056#msg62056 date=1234769074
Heck, some games have even gone commercial
What are you talking about, Ara Fell?
It's all well and good to be idealistic and say "just finish the game first", but being a single person I need the help of a community to balance out what I think is a good balance of game, a good pace of storyline or a good mechanism with what actually is. This requires feedback, which requires that people play the demos and comment on them and requires that people are honest. All this requires that people know my game exists.
And this is the same for a lot of other indie developers. They need the help to finish their game to the standard they want to. They don't want to sit down, make a game and finish it all for the game to get ripped apart because they missed some sort of silly balancing issue that a little bit of constructive criticism on a demo would've sorted out. Raptor Jesus knows that Sore Losers is a lot better for having recieved feedback from RS!.
Of course, I could just except that my game is going to have flaws and then release it in full, but I actually want my game to be the best it can be if I am going to spend a large amount of my time working on it. I don't get paid for this shit, unlike professionals, so excuse me for asking for a little help once in a while.
And this is the same for a lot of other indie developers. They need the help to finish their game to the standard they want to. They don't want to sit down, make a game and finish it all for the game to get ripped apart because they missed some sort of silly balancing issue that a little bit of constructive criticism on a demo would've sorted out. Raptor Jesus knows that Sore Losers is a lot better for having recieved feedback from RS!.
Of course, I could just except that my game is going to have flaws and then release it in full, but I actually want my game to be the best it can be if I am going to spend a large amount of my time working on it. I don't get paid for this shit, unlike professionals, so excuse me for asking for a little help once in a while.
LouisCyphre
2290
That's the idea of having a forum. What WIP is talking about are those people that use it for hype and promotion and advertising instead.
And I am saying that you can't get feedback without hype and advertising when everyone is so stuck up their own arses they won't play someone else's game without it being rammed down their throat. Professional games need advertising, we need advertising too.
Of course, actually making a good game is also part of what we need to do, but do people really think that spending a little time making a forum topic cuts loads of time out of development? I only work on my game when I actually feel like it; if I am on the forums I can safely say I don't feel like working on my game at that current moment in time.
Of course, actually making a good game is also part of what we need to do, but do people really think that spending a little time making a forum topic cuts loads of time out of development? I only work on my game when I actually feel like it; if I am on the forums I can safely say I don't feel like working on my game at that current moment in time.
LouisCyphre
2290
Chill out, man. Chiiillll.
Simple solution: Go to the Random Screenshots on the front page. Pick one without refreshing and download the relevant game, if it is with download. If not, try again. Make a bulleted list of your observations. Turn those bullets into senances. Submit as review. Done.
This goes out to everyone, not just you FG. In fact, I think I'll do just that.
Simple solution: Go to the Random Screenshots on the front page. Pick one without refreshing and download the relevant game, if it is with download. If not, try again. Make a bulleted list of your observations. Turn those bullets into senances. Submit as review. Done.
This goes out to everyone, not just you FG. In fact, I think I'll do just that.
That's why we advertise our games outside of this little stagnant ring of rpgmaker communities. (Also, the fact that most of us here are developers, not players might have something to do with the lack of actual game playing)
Also, I have not made a topic for any of our games on this forum.
Also, I have not made a topic for any of our games on this forum.
Honestly, F-G, what does making a topic about a game and bumping it all the time have to do with criticism?
The best thing you can do is make friends with a few honest critics, and get them to test your game repeatedly. There are people out there that do this. I did this myself for Badluck and Craze's games.
I will repeat that the most popular games in this community tend to be very quiet until a release. The Way, Master of the Wind, Quintessence, the afore-mentioned Last Scenario/Exit Fate, etc. all have/had closed beta-testing and don't release a great amount of information before or during release periods.
The best thing you can do is make friends with a few honest critics, and get them to test your game repeatedly. There are people out there that do this. I did this myself for Badluck and Craze's games.
I will repeat that the most popular games in this community tend to be very quiet until a release. The Way, Master of the Wind, Quintessence, the afore-mentioned Last Scenario/Exit Fate, etc. all have/had closed beta-testing and don't release a great amount of information before or during release periods.
author=Blindmind link=topic=3159.msg62004#msg62004 date=1234755329author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=3159.msg62003#msg62003 date=1234755038Please no.
I mean, there are examples; Barkley Shut Up and Jam had a massive advertising campaign (the game even has it's own Wikipedia page) and it got done; in good time, too. How was that possible? Perhaps we should start looking at that.
So you don't want to investigate how to effectively advertise for our games and get them done in good time? Okay...
(I wasn't talking about a Wikipedia page by the way)
