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POPULARITY AND THE STATE OF THIS COMMUNITY
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breaking news: reputation counts for something
in our other story tonight: SCIENTISTS PROVE EXISTENCE OF 'OBVIOUS'
in our other story tonight: SCIENTISTS PROVE EXISTENCE OF 'OBVIOUS'
Blind
2262
Nightblade:All I really have to say is that I hope this wasn't a particular reference. =[
If you want your game to be popular, you have to do something memorable. It's not going to fall onto your lap just because you cry bitterly over it. It's not going to pop out of the sky because you review 5 games a week, and it isn't even going to smash you on the head if your game has impressive custom graphics. (IE: Anyone else remember that game with fantastic graphics that had a poorly written story and really awful gameplay? I forgot it's name... Proving my point.)
Edit: Okay, semi-serious answer? I see validity in nearly everything Fallen-Griever pointed out, as much as it pains me to agree with that. However, I still believe that a quality game with at least a single primary draw more often than not is going to receive at fair amount of the attention it deserves.
There's a lot left to chance in this community, and I think that is especially true with the reception of a project. This would be less true if the member-base in general were less overtly apathetic, but with the overwhelming plethora of games floating around, I unfortunately can't blame most of them.
FallenGriever
Clearly, I'm of the opinion that a(n indie) game becomes well-known depending on the popularity of the person who made it. Craze, for example, could make the worst game ever and it would still get a shit tonne more attention than a far more competent game made by some random unknown. Also, helping people through comments/reviewing other people's games/writing articles/giving out tutorials etc. doesn't matter at all because people in this community are generally selfish as hell. People in this community generally only play other people's games if they like the person who made the game/the person who made it is popular enough to get people talking about their game.
However, I don't think popularity is the issue as much as it is respect. Yeah, maybe I'm exaggerating the distinction, but they're honestly too very different things. I can list off nearly dozen members who float around the community and consistently put out underwhelming projects. And, sure, nearly everyone would very likely know whom I was referring to. Does that mean there's an insatiable demand for that individual's games? Of course not.
Likewise, what's truly more important in the grand scheme of things, anyway? A popular member may drag all of his "friends" into the queue for his latest demo, earning thousands of nameless downloads along the way, but the project may never achieve the cult status or flawless ratings of other, lesser-known projects. A game's response is a totally a subjective thing. Quality over quantity, as you yourself have said, right?
I feel I should point out that e-prestige only goes so far to help a game get popular. I know, because that's the situation I'm in. I often get the impression that no matter how active I am or how much I put myself out there, Pokemon Hunter is never going to be more popular for it. It certainly hasn't worked so far!
So it really isn't so much a popularity contest as it is a matter of perspective. People expect better from the creators they see and hear from more and are more willing to give their games a chance, but they still ultimately decide whether to play or not based on the game itself. In other words, a great creator can't save a bad game (or a bad-looking one, for that matter).
So it really isn't so much a popularity contest as it is a matter of perspective. People expect better from the creators they see and hear from more and are more willing to give their games a chance, but they still ultimately decide whether to play or not based on the game itself. In other words, a great creator can't save a bad game (or a bad-looking one, for that matter).
My favorite part about this is how WRONG you are, F-G.
You are forgetting one key element: We advertised V&V extremely aggressively, on like, a dozen or so sites, including a few rather large ones. This is the sole reason that it got as noticed as it did.
You think we are CHARMED or something, but really, you have no idea what you're talking about. Both of my own games (Philadelphia and Harbinger) have less than 200 downloads despite being old site submissions; Craze usually advertises on multiple sites (and rather aggressively) so some of his games do well, but even then, look at games like Geondun. 400-500 dls. Demon Tower has a decent but unexceptional 800 dls. We aren't exactly talking a metric ton here, man.
You are free to live in delusion F-G, but don't shit and piss on others and parade that you are automatically correct, especially when you aren't. =)
You are forgetting one key element: We advertised V&V extremely aggressively, on like, a dozen or so sites, including a few rather large ones. This is the sole reason that it got as noticed as it did.
You think we are CHARMED or something, but really, you have no idea what you're talking about. Both of my own games (Philadelphia and Harbinger) have less than 200 downloads despite being old site submissions; Craze usually advertises on multiple sites (and rather aggressively) so some of his games do well, but even then, look at games like Geondun. 400-500 dls. Demon Tower has a decent but unexceptional 800 dls. We aren't exactly talking a metric ton here, man.
You are free to live in delusion F-G, but don't shit and piss on others and parade that you are automatically correct, especially when you aren't. =)
F-G, stop bitching. Honestly, it's not going to help further whatever cause you're trying to perpetuate. If people want their games noticed, they need to expend alot more effort in publicity and PR.
And I'm not saying the reason you made this thread is because you want people to play YOUR games, but as a side note, copious amounts of pissing and moaning makes me want to play your games less.
I think the opposite of what you're saying is mostly true. People who suck won't get their games played. Conversely, I've played awesome and very well-received games by people who are mostly unknown to the community.
You should take a course in marketing or two if you really want to understand how this shit works. I'm not saying I do, but simply being "liked" or "popular" is definitely not the key aspect.
And I'm not saying the reason you made this thread is because you want people to play YOUR games, but as a side note, copious amounts of pissing and moaning makes me want to play your games less.
I think the opposite of what you're saying is mostly true. People who suck won't get their games played. Conversely, I've played awesome and very well-received games by people who are mostly unknown to the community.
You should take a course in marketing or two if you really want to understand how this shit works. I'm not saying I do, but simply being "liked" or "popular" is definitely not the key aspect.
Drakonais
2787
This is exactly why game swap seems like such a common sense idea. We all got into the RPG Making community because we enjoyed our first RPGs like Chrono Trigger and FFVI right? So given that (I would venture to say) a majority of us are both developers AND gamers, it's symbiotic to offer to play each others games for feedback.
Sure, it's just ONE download and not 1000, but you have someone invested in your game because you're invested in theirs. And maybe a few in-depth reviews could be what it takes to get a game off the ground.
Sure, it's just ONE download and not 1000, but you have someone invested in your game because you're invested in theirs. And maybe a few in-depth reviews could be what it takes to get a game off the ground.
Zeuzio
3787
The new version of my game has like, 7 downloads so far. Plus 30 from the previous download. It's not because of my popularity, though. It's probably just because I haven't bothered to do much advertising for my game at all. There are probably other reasons also, like the fact that my game doesn't have any fancy graphics or anything that catches the eye.
(It also just plain sucks too, most likely.)
(It also just plain sucks too, most likely.)
Anaryu
8848
F-G has a lot of good points here, but really we should be calling it "visibility."
What helps makes a project visible? (some, not all, and only my thoughts too.)
1. People Talking About It - see it in threads, it's a Featured game, chatting about it in IRC, sudden good reviews, etc.
2. Visibility of Names - The Real Brickroad (who I know nothing about nor have I played any of his games) is spoken of so much for a legendary game that even I recognized his name and it makes you look at his reviews, projects, etc. With V&V I heard Craze and Karsuman and I knew both well from seeing them, talking to them, etc. This made it catch my eye much more than a game by "sephiroth003vx."
3. Timing - If you release something new at JUST the right time, or just the right place, it gains a huge visibility jump - I got lucky with one of my projects; the right people played and got interested in this because I hit during a lull with one of the first finished VX projects ever (was just released), with custom graphics/systems that seemed innovative, their attention got it noticed and put up as a featured game, which caused OTHER major visibility spikes (People Talking and Eye Catching).
4. Eye Catching Factor - Your project has amazing new screens, super pretty graphics, or other features that someone notices and gets interested in. Catchy project names also factor in here. (F-G just FYI I actually felt averted to your project because "Sore Losers" just doesn't intrigue me, it sounds more like a game about whining - I'm not saying this is accurate or fair, but first impressions are important and "customer perception is reality.")
Popularity (or Visibility of Name) is just ONE of the things; another is sheer luck, and others are just whether someone catches interested in your project because of the name, a random screenshot, or people talking about it somewhere (IRC is pretty effective.)
The point?
It's not fair, it's not going to be fair, no one's mind is going to change. Hold you get lucky and otherwise keep doing what you're doing and stay visible.
What helps makes a project visible? (some, not all, and only my thoughts too.)
1. People Talking About It - see it in threads, it's a Featured game, chatting about it in IRC, sudden good reviews, etc.
2. Visibility of Names - The Real Brickroad (who I know nothing about nor have I played any of his games) is spoken of so much for a legendary game that even I recognized his name and it makes you look at his reviews, projects, etc. With V&V I heard Craze and Karsuman and I knew both well from seeing them, talking to them, etc. This made it catch my eye much more than a game by "sephiroth003vx."
3. Timing - If you release something new at JUST the right time, or just the right place, it gains a huge visibility jump - I got lucky with one of my projects; the right people played and got interested in this because I hit during a lull with one of the first finished VX projects ever (was just released), with custom graphics/systems that seemed innovative, their attention got it noticed and put up as a featured game, which caused OTHER major visibility spikes (People Talking and Eye Catching).
4. Eye Catching Factor - Your project has amazing new screens, super pretty graphics, or other features that someone notices and gets interested in. Catchy project names also factor in here. (F-G just FYI I actually felt averted to your project because "Sore Losers" just doesn't intrigue me, it sounds more like a game about whining - I'm not saying this is accurate or fair, but first impressions are important and "customer perception is reality.")
Popularity (or Visibility of Name) is just ONE of the things; another is sheer luck, and others are just whether someone catches interested in your project because of the name, a random screenshot, or people talking about it somewhere (IRC is pretty effective.)
The point?
It's not fair, it's not going to be fair, no one's mind is going to change. Hold you get lucky and otherwise keep doing what you're doing and stay visible.
Darken
3952
This isn't very exciting, guess we'll have to wait for the next monthly "this community sucks" topic, hopefully it will have more flame baiting.
What? A topic about the state of the community not made by Feld?!
For people who are planning to try it, marketing games to a community based around a different genre of games will make those who played said games deem that they are of higher quality, and if you get praise it will be higher, however, downloads will be few in comparison with games of the main genre in the community. i.e. that's what has happened with our games and the little projects of mine that I've put up here.
Whoops, seems I've spilled out my marketing strategy.
For people who are planning to try it, marketing games to a community based around a different genre of games will make those who played said games deem that they are of higher quality, and if you get praise it will be higher, however, downloads will be few in comparison with games of the main genre in the community. i.e. that's what has happened with our games and the little projects of mine that I've put up here.
Whoops, seems I've spilled out my marketing strategy.
post=87257
3. Timing- If you release something new at JUST the right time, or just the right place, it gains a huge visibility jump - I got lucky with one of my projects; the right people played and got interested in this because I hit during a lull with one of the first finished VX projects ever (was just released), with custom graphics/systems that seemed innovative, their attention got it noticed and put up as a featured game, which caused OTHER major visibility spikes (People Talking and Eye Catching).
This is very true. I got lucky - when I released my game there was a plethora of pretty high-detailed games with amazing production values, elaborate storylines and developed characters, whereas my game was an ugly RTP-fest old school RPG (it still is) and blah blah blah niche yada yada yada trends blah blah I got lucky.
Ramshackin
1462
post=87210This is a very good quote right here!
People expect better from the creators they see and hear from more and are more willing to give their games a chance, but they still ultimately decide whether to play or not based on the game itself. In other words, a great creator can't save a bad game (or a bad-looking one, for that matter).
If you want those massive download counts, you have to think of your game like a product. You have to sell your game. You sell your product through: brand name, advertising, and actually having a quality product.
Brand Name - This is the most important factor in marketing. In terms of game making, this would be your user name or game series(like Legion Saga). Say you download Demon Tower by Craze. It has demons. It has towers. It has everything you want in a game. You are more likely to download more Craze games. A personal example: I released my Dego Demo in a community where I had a history of releasing several well reviewed games - I got a huge response. I released my demo in a community where I rarely post - very few people cared.
Advertising - This is your screenshots and your cool, intriguing features. It a game promises to deliver something neat, but never before done, I'm going to download it!
Quality Product - Sadly, this less important than the other two, but still very important. People will naturally stumble upon your game, and if it's good, they'll stick by for future updates. Release a quality game and people will let you know, no matter how unpopular you are or how poor your advertising.
Edit: Forgot to put my main point - Brand name and advertising will you get you lots of downloads, but a quality product will get you detailed feedback, which is much more important to us indie devs.
Darken
3952
kentona
This is very true. I got lucky - when I released my game there was a plethora of pretty high-detailed games with amazing production values, elaborate storylines and developed characters, whereas my game was an ugly RTP-fest old school RPG (it still is) and blah blah blah niche yada yada yada trends blah blah I got lucky.
Can't say it was ugly since there was a uniqe ff4/ff5 blend with RTP style to it. HR was popular because it captured the essence of DQ3/FF5 so well that it triggers nostalgia bombs. I must also say the "I am a hero" gimmick back when GW was still overly active was genius.
