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WHAT ARE YOU THINKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW?
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pianotm
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CloseI'm working to be a sorcerer. I demand everything of myself.
I apologize for nothing because there is nothing to apologize for. I am not going to bend to the demands to an overbearing, under-educated, self-entitled, fundamentalist society that is so convinced my non-conformity is an affront to their insecurities that they're ready to burn me and anyone like me at the stake.
The world can shove Politically Correct right up its fucking ass. PC is nothing but a thorn in the side of intellectual growth. It's a tool for imbeciles like Bill Maher and Anne Coultier to help a control-obsessed government keep it's citizenry divided.
ANY IDIOT CAN SEE THAT PC ISN'T UNITING US: IT'S TEARING US APART! While people on TV live in absolute terror of somehow insulting some ethnic group by they way they hold their teacup, there are groups that are really looking for any faux-pas they can use to absolutely ruin anyone who dares slip, or even disagrees with their religious beliefs.
Israel has lost 3 soldiers and nobody else during it's attack on the Gaza strip. Meanwhile, 1500 Palestinians have died, almost all of them non-combatants. Yet, anyone who speaks out against this is publicly labeled anti-Semitic (and in my case, I was called pro-Muslim extremist). Why? Because it was prophesied that the Jewish people would return to Israel, and if the Palestinians, who have lived their for thousands of years, don't leave, then Israel has every right to kill them all. And this is PC. (Stupid me, I actually trusted that political forum, which spoke of preserving Freedom of Speech above all else, to take my dissenting view on an intellectual level, not black-ball me and then give my screenname to hundreds of other political forums as potential Muslim extremist--I'm Pagan for fuck's sake and my birth religion was Christian).
That is what I think of the demand that anyone who offends someone should apologize.
I think that anyone who's offended should listen to my tiny violin playing "My Heart Bleeds Purple Kool-Aid for You."
Then again, I'm not so hopelessly needy that offending someone who walks off in a huff and doesn't want to play with me anymore totally ruins my life.
I apologize for nothing because there is nothing to apologize for. I am not going to bend to the demands to an overbearing, under-educated, self-entitled, fundamentalist society that is so convinced my non-conformity is an affront to their insecurities that they're ready to burn me and anyone like me at the stake.
The world can shove Politically Correct right up its fucking ass. PC is nothing but a thorn in the side of intellectual growth. It's a tool for imbeciles like Bill Maher and Anne Coultier to help a control-obsessed government keep it's citizenry divided.
ANY IDIOT CAN SEE THAT PC ISN'T UNITING US: IT'S TEARING US APART! While people on TV live in absolute terror of somehow insulting some ethnic group by they way they hold their teacup, there are groups that are really looking for any faux-pas they can use to absolutely ruin anyone who dares slip, or even disagrees with their religious beliefs.
Israel has lost 3 soldiers and nobody else during it's attack on the Gaza strip. Meanwhile, 1500 Palestinians have died, almost all of them non-combatants. Yet, anyone who speaks out against this is publicly labeled anti-Semitic (and in my case, I was called pro-Muslim extremist). Why? Because it was prophesied that the Jewish people would return to Israel, and if the Palestinians, who have lived their for thousands of years, don't leave, then Israel has every right to kill them all. And this is PC. (Stupid me, I actually trusted that political forum, which spoke of preserving Freedom of Speech above all else, to take my dissenting view on an intellectual level, not black-ball me and then give my screenname to hundreds of other political forums as potential Muslim extremist--I'm Pagan for fuck's sake and my birth religion was Christian).
That is what I think of the demand that anyone who offends someone should apologize.
I think that anyone who's offended should listen to my tiny violin playing "My Heart Bleeds Purple Kool-Aid for You."
Then again, I'm not so hopelessly needy that offending someone who walks off in a huff and doesn't want to play with me anymore totally ruins my life.
ubon
66
oh hey, the frothing side of the discussion got a word in just in time. neat!
I'm gonna begin by dropping a fact on you:
'political correctness', historically speaking, has never been an actual thing. the term as you're using it was coined by conservatives in the early 90s in response to liberal media, as a conveniently scary-sounding pejorative for inconvenient social progress. it's an imaginary concept, used from the very beginning by people who want to pretend that inconvenient ideologies are part of some monolithic conspiracy, and it looks like you're keeping that tradition strong.
oh, and do us all a favour and drop the false assumption that people can only care about one thing at a time. caring about this does not sap magical Care Energy from the genocide in Gaza, and I'm actually really disgusted that you would throw up something like that as a smokescreen to try and stop people from talking about things you don't like.
I shouldn't even have to tell you assholes not to co-opt the wrongful death of thousands of innocent people as a weak moral dodge for your unrelated arguments, but do not co-opt the wrongful death of thousands of innocent people as a weak moral dodge for your unrelated arguments
I'm gonna begin by dropping a fact on you:
'political correctness', historically speaking, has never been an actual thing. the term as you're using it was coined by conservatives in the early 90s in response to liberal media, as a conveniently scary-sounding pejorative for inconvenient social progress. it's an imaginary concept, used from the very beginning by people who want to pretend that inconvenient ideologies are part of some monolithic conspiracy, and it looks like you're keeping that tradition strong.
oh, and do us all a favour and drop the false assumption that people can only care about one thing at a time. caring about this does not sap magical Care Energy from the genocide in Gaza, and I'm actually really disgusted that you would throw up something like that as a smokescreen to try and stop people from talking about things you don't like.
I shouldn't even have to tell you assholes not to co-opt the wrongful death of thousands of innocent people as a weak moral dodge for your unrelated arguments, but do not co-opt the wrongful death of thousands of innocent people as a weak moral dodge for your unrelated arguments
Yes, and you're clearly equally disgusted when people don't automatically fall into a mortified shock and start apologizing all over the place when people have been offended. You're assertion that there isn't always middle ground is quite correct, but you seem to making the assertion that whenever one is offended, the offender is always at fault.
Now, I'm not going to stoop to your level and start insulting you, but I am disgusted that you would deliberately take my comments out of context to try and invalidate my argument, and just as you accused me trying to "stop people from talking about things" (that) I "don't like," I have no problem saying that you're "history lesson" is an attempt devalue my statement and stop people from listening to a perspective that you don't like.
It's a very cheap trick, "low-punch", as you called it.
Now, I'm not going to stoop to your level and start insulting you, but I am disgusted that you would deliberately take my comments out of context to try and invalidate my argument, and just as you accused me trying to "stop people from talking about things" (that) I "don't like," I have no problem saying that you're "history lesson" is an attempt devalue my statement and stop people from listening to a perspective that you don't like.
It's a very cheap trick, "low-punch", as you called it.
ubon
66
taking you out of context, huh? let's fix that.
leave jontron alone! he's not as bad as genocide, at least!
sweet dreams, pianotm!
author=pianotm
I'm working to be a sorcerer. I demand everything of myself.
I apologize for nothing because there is nothing to apologize for. I am not going to bend to the demands to an overbearing, under-educated, self-entitled, fundamentalist society that is so convinced my non-conformity is an affront to their insecurities that they're ready to burn me and anyone like me at the stake.
The world can shove Politically Correct right up its fucking ass. PC is nothing but a thorn in the side of intellectual growth. It's a tool for imbeciles like Bill Maher and Anne Coultier to help a control-obsessed government keep it's citizenry divided.
ANY IDIOT CAN SEE THAT PC ISN'T UNITING US: IT'S TEARING US APART! While people on TV live in absolute terror of somehow insulting some ethnic group by they way they hold their teacup, there are groups that are really looking for any faux-pas they can use to absolutely ruin anyone who dares slip, or even disagrees with their religious beliefs.
Israel has lost 3 soldiers and nobody else during it's attack on the Gaza strip. Meanwhile, 1500 Palestinians have died, almost all of them non-combatants. Yet, anyone who speaks out against this is publicly labeled anti-Semitic (and in my case, I was called pro-Muslim extremist). Why? Because it was prophesied that the Jewish people would return to Israel, and if the Palestinians, who have lived their for thousands of years, don't leave, then Israel has every right to kill them all. And this is PC. (Stupid me, I actually trusted that political forum, which spoke of preserving Freedom of Speech above all else, to take my dissenting view on an intellectual level, not black-ball me and then give my screenname to hundreds of other political forums as potential Muslim extremist--I'm Pagan for fuck's sake and my birth religion was Christian).
That is what I think of the demand that anyone who offends someone should apologize.
I think that anyone who's offended should listen to my tiny violin playing "My Heart Bleeds Purple Kool-Aid for You."
Then again, I'm not so hopelessly needy that offending someone who walks off in a huff and doesn't want to play with me anymore totally ruins my life.
leave jontron alone! he's not as bad as genocide, at least!
sweet dreams, pianotm!
Where I clearly point out that my statements against the actions of Israel were regarded as politically incorrect and got me labeled on several forums as anti-Semitic, which is quite pertinent to a conversation about political correctness. The fact of the matter is, if I were someone important, I would be in the news right now being slammed by the media for anti-Semitic statements, for even saying that I disagree with the genocide. Just as Penelope Cruz is currently being slammed for speaking out against Israel's genocide.
You're not trying educate people, Mawk. You're just trying to cause a fight. I'm taking the bait. You are stirring shit, and I am calling you out.
Edit: I did not "drop" the genocide of Israel as a moral dodge. I stated it because even speaking out against the genocide that Israel is committing is considered so politically incorrect by this nation that is so busy licking Israel's boots, that couldn't possibly not be pertinent to a discussion about offending people.
You're not trying educate people, Mawk. You're just trying to cause a fight. I'm taking the bait. You are stirring shit, and I am calling you out.
Edit: I did not "drop" the genocide of Israel as a moral dodge. I stated it because even speaking out against the genocide that Israel is committing is considered so politically incorrect by this nation that is so busy licking Israel's boots, that couldn't possibly not be pertinent to a discussion about offending people.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I'm not an objective party, I'm a huge asshole who probably has serious issues, and my personal opinions on how people should handle offensiveness have gotten me in a great deal of trouble. That doesn't stop me from having those opinions, though. Or sharing them. Like 100% of people on planet Earth, I believe my own views are the correct ones. Otherwise I would have different views. That's how opinions work. I don't have any specific opinions I think are wrong, but I will certainly concede that there are surely plenty of things in this life I'm wrong about.
But as far as this particular situation, I mostly just think people who claim that "retarded" is a slur are, intentionally or unwittingly, promoting an anti-intellectual mindset that I personally despise. You should be able to use dumb as an insult. Dumb isn't a neutral thing. It's bad.
That's the only reason this thing really bothers me, personally. For the sake of this argument, I agree that people should try to be a little more sensitive when they can. But I think it's more important that people should respect intelligence. So it bothers me when people apparently think that referring negatively to stupidity is an extreme faux pas worthy of mountains of angry letters (never mind the death threats). Get over it: what he said wasn't as bad as even the first polite request he got, in my eyes.
JonTron provoking them into being confronational was kind of retarded, though.
But as far as this particular situation, I mostly just think people who claim that "retarded" is a slur are, intentionally or unwittingly, promoting an anti-intellectual mindset that I personally despise. You should be able to use dumb as an insult. Dumb isn't a neutral thing. It's bad.
That's the only reason this thing really bothers me, personally. For the sake of this argument, I agree that people should try to be a little more sensitive when they can. But I think it's more important that people should respect intelligence. So it bothers me when people apparently think that referring negatively to stupidity is an extreme faux pas worthy of mountains of angry letters (never mind the death threats). Get over it: what he said wasn't as bad as even the first polite request he got, in my eyes.
JonTron provoking them into being confronational was kind of retarded, though.
ubon
66
jeez, I can't sleep watching this trainwreck.
for people who are undecided, or who still think that asking people not to use slurs is some enormously irrational thing, please look immediately above this post and see
I've kept receipts, in case of a rainy day.
you two have somehow outdone the very same strawmen you were creating earlier in the thread, and you've kept me up with laughter in the process.
for people who are undecided, or who still think that asking people not to use slurs is some enormously irrational thing, please look immediately above this post and see
- the person equating asking people not to use slurs to the genocide in Gaza
- the person who thinks that mentally disabled people should be shamed for their conditions, and asking people not to is 'anti-intellectual'
I've kept receipts, in case of a rainy day.
you two have somehow outdone the very same strawmen you were creating earlier in the thread, and you've kept me up with laughter in the process.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
So for the record, you don't think calling someone smart as a compliment should be allowed?
And if you do, then why don't you think calling someone dumb as an insult should be allowed, since that's saying exactly the same thing about the "goodness" of intelligence and stupidity?
And if you do, then why don't you think calling someone dumb as an insult should be allowed, since that's saying exactly the same thing about the "goodness" of intelligence and stupidity?
ubon
66
you're conveniently ignoring the very obvious connotations the term has to mental illness, and its continued use as a derogatory term for mentally ill people, and I'm not sure whether you're choosing to do that or if you're just missing the point that badly.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I'm... not? Retardedness refers to extremely low intelligence. This can be caused by an illness or it can not be, but either way it's a bad thing. People would rather not be retarded.
author=mawk
jeez, I can't sleep watching this trainwreck.
for people who are undecided, or who still think that asking people not to use slurs is some enormously irrational thing, please look immediately above this post and see
- the person equating asking people not to use slurs to the genocide in Gaza
- the person who thinks that mentally disabled people should be shamed for their conditions, and asking people not to is 'anti-intellectual'
I've kept receipts, in case of a rainy day.
you two have somehow outdone the very same strawmen you were creating earlier in the thread, and you've kept me up with laughter in the process.
Okay, I'll play you're little game.
I am not equating slurs to the genocide in Gaza; the Pro-Israeli part of our community is. By speaking out against this genocide, I have been accused of making derogatory slurs against Israel (by actual important government people, as a matter of fact). WHAT PART OF THIS FAIRLY SIMPLE CONCEPT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?
No, I don't think mentally disabled people should be disparaged, but neither do I think striking the word, "retarded" from all human memory is a particularly intelligent response to the problem. This is not a difficult concept either.
You see, in my world, personal experience counts for something, yet in your strange world, it seems that any sign that a discussion may escalate and evolve makes every somehow less intelligent than you, which only demonstrates a severe lack of perspective.
So laugh away.
ubon
66
author=LockeZ
I'm... not? Retardedness refers to extremely low intelligence. This can be caused by an illness or it can not be, but either way it's a bad thing. People would rather not be retarded.
so... in other words, you don't understand mental illness, and you don't understand the way mental illness is stigmatized in society, and in fact the only thing you know about anything tangentially related to this discussion is one specific dictionary definition of the word 'retarded'.
you know what I said about admitting that sometimes, you should recognize that other people's experiences make them more qualified to talk about a certain subject? because this is one of those times. the fact that you're ignorant about what's being said isn't a counterargument, it's a sign that you should probably shut up and learn a bit.
author=pianotm
So laugh away.
gyahahaha!
but no, seriously, you have no fucking reason to bring up the genocide in Gaza as a part of this discussion and your insistence that it somehow relates to the 'political correctness' I'm enforcing (which I already proved isn't even a thing, if you'll scroll up) is ridiculous on every level and horribly disrespectful to the victims.
Yeah actually no I'm not that terrible. Sometimes I cross the line to deliver a joke... but actually it's really not worth it.
I think I just support love, I don't even understand half of what's going on here lol.
i.e. What if we all just were careful about what we say? (I'm being a hypocrite here because I'm almost never careful about what I say :()
I think I just support love, I don't even understand half of what's going on here lol.
i.e. What if we all just were careful about what we say? (I'm being a hypocrite here because I'm almost never careful about what I say :()
ubon
66
yeah, that's the big thing -- being a bit careful not to drop slurs in your vocabulary is basically no effort at all. people can scream and cry about 'political correctness' and 'censorship'*, but watching what you say to make sure that you don't, y'know, trample all over vulnerable people is a minor inconvenience at the very worst. to me, that's not an unreasonable price for the emotional wellbeing of people who are constantly being subjected to casual shittiness and actual full-flung abuse from all corners.
*and other people can take the full-on morally reprehensible route and insist that not saying slurs is fascism
*and other people can take the full-on morally reprehensible route and insist that not saying slurs is fascism
author=mawkauthor=LockeZso... in other words, you don't understand mental illness, and you don't understand the way mental illness is stigmatized in society, and in fact the only thing you know about anything tangentially related to this discussion is one specific dictionary definition of the word 'retarded'.
I'm... not? Retardedness refers to extremely low intelligence. This can be caused by an illness or it can not be, but either way it's a bad thing. People would rather not be retarded.
you know what I said about admitting that sometimes, you should recognize that other people's experiences make them more qualified to talk about a certain subject? because this is one of those times. the fact that you're ignorant about what's being said isn't a counterargument, it's a sign that you should probably shut up and learn a bit.author=pianotm
So laugh away.
gyahahaha!
but no, seriously, you have no fucking reason to bring up the genocide in Gaza as a part of this discussion and your insistence that it somehow relates to the 'political correctness' I'm enforcing (which I already proved isn't even a thing, if you'll scroll up) is ridiculous on every level and horribly disrespectful to the victims.
So, I've proved government isn't a thing, but that doesn't stop it from affecting us. You're so busy being superior that you refuse to acknowledge the fact that abstract principles affect us on all levels, not just on the level you think they should be on.
Initially, I thought you were agreeing with me, until I scrolled up and read you saying that people who have offended others should own up and apologize. To me, that was broad (Meaning that that point of view is only applicable in some cases, not all).
So I related to you a case in which I spoke out against a travesty, and in turn, I was accused of making anti-Jewish, pro-Islamic statements in support of extremism, that my comments about Israel unjustly expanding settlements even where the government outlawed such expansion racially derogatory. I didn't even mention a religion; the mere fact that it was Israel I was talking about was enough. This goes very well with the concept that all you have to do to offend someone is cough.
The fact that you don't believe that this can apply to a discussion about PC doesn't mean you're actually correct. It means you're morally offended, so you're trying make me go away and stop morally offending you.
I'm not apologizing. You see, I haven't insulted you once, and I've managed to offend you.
author=mawk
wow, edgy. maybe the truth.........lies somewhere in the middle.....................
This is closer to absolute truth than any truth will ever be.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
@mawk: I understand all those things pretty well. Yes, being unintelligent is considered negative by society. The effects of most illnesses are considered negative by society. In fact, I'm almost positive that for something to be considered an illness, it has to have an effect that's generally considered negative. If being unintelligent weren't considered negative then you wouldn't even be calling it a mental disease, you'd just be calling it an alternate lifestyle, like being homosexual. The fact that you're using that phrase tells me you think of it as undesirable also.
You didn't actually answer my question from two posts ago, by the way. Yes or no to allowing "smart" as a compliment, and what's the difference if so?
Mostly at this point I'm just still responding because I'm annoyed that you haven't actually made any points in any of your responses to me. You have a habit of using your sarcastic writing style to try to make everyone else's points sound dumb (without explaining why), in a rather demeaning way. This does nothing to advance the discussion, and causes other people to get angry and stop being logical. But hey, it makes them look bad, and that was the only real goal, right?
Edit: Regarding your most recent post, what you said makes sense, about spending a tiny amount of effort to not offend people. Just apologizing afterward is almost always enough, really, you don't actually have to filter yourself that carefully. That's assuming I care about the emotions of strangers though. I usually don't. If my personal wellbeing doesn't depend on someone's opinion of me, then I only care about teaching them what I believe is true, not about making their day pleasant. Truth before feelings. So I'll actually try to filter what I say, but if they come back and tell me I accidentally offended them, I'll usually get in an argument about it.
You didn't actually answer my question from two posts ago, by the way. Yes or no to allowing "smart" as a compliment, and what's the difference if so?
Mostly at this point I'm just still responding because I'm annoyed that you haven't actually made any points in any of your responses to me. You have a habit of using your sarcastic writing style to try to make everyone else's points sound dumb (without explaining why), in a rather demeaning way. This does nothing to advance the discussion, and causes other people to get angry and stop being logical. But hey, it makes them look bad, and that was the only real goal, right?
Edit: Regarding your most recent post, what you said makes sense, about spending a tiny amount of effort to not offend people. Just apologizing afterward is almost always enough, really, you don't actually have to filter yourself that carefully. That's assuming I care about the emotions of strangers though. I usually don't. If my personal wellbeing doesn't depend on someone's opinion of me, then I only care about teaching them what I believe is true, not about making their day pleasant. Truth before feelings. So I'll actually try to filter what I say, but if they come back and tell me I accidentally offended them, I'll usually get in an argument about it.
ubon
66
author=LockeZ
You have a habit of using your sarcastic writing style to try to make everyone else's points sound dumb (without explaining why), in a rather demeaning way.
LockeZ, I gotta be honest: right now, for you and pianotm, that's mostly just a matter of reading them back to you.
I've said to you what needed to be said, and if you're upset that it wasn't formatted in a way that pretended your standpoint was something worth respecting, well, tough. I don't owe it to anyone to engage with each and every false precedent and bad-faith argument they dredge up one by one.
