WHAT ARE YOU THINKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW?

author=Shinan
EDIT: Also I read somewhere that a lot of the statues are actually mass produced garbage. So it's probably okay to destroy most of those.

EDIT2: https://twitter.com/taber/status/897292040790323201 is where I read it. Quite interesting.

Man, I was having a conversation with my roommate about this and posited this possibility. I knew that confederate statues came up after the confederates lost (because who makes statues during the middle of a war), so I said something along the lines of, "I bet these statues were mass produced and sold to racist city councils by a huckster." So, I thought I would look this stuff up after seeing this post, Shinan, and thought I'd share a few points:

1) The statue that got knocked down was actually in Durham, NC. The Lee statue in Charleston is actually not mass-produced and will probably be preserved.

2) The statue that got knocked down is indeed mass produced. Here's some info on it: http://docsouth.unc.edu/commland/monument/118/

3) LockeZ, if you're interested in preserving art, you can find an identical statue here, here, or here, for example.

4) These statues, and many others, were commissioned by the United Daughters of the Confederacy in the early twentieth century. This group pushed that old "the civil war was for states rights" mantra that all the brainwashed dipshits back in my hometown still say.

So, yeah, I agree that statues shouldn't be torn down like that (if anything, it's bad PR to see a bunch of people looking like anarchists, and that would distract from the terrible PR the other side is getting now). I'd prefer that we actually discuss the gross history of these statues as a country and preserve a couple of them, melt down the rest and convert that into art of another form--like the freed slave statue Roden (good to see you back, by the way) suggested. But, like, this statue wasn't a big loss.

author=M_Reven
I always though cloud killed Aeeith...

He would've had Square decided the game wasn't interesting or dramatic enough. I think it could've helped.

Unless you're talking about this.

author=LockeZ
In another 150 years they're going to microwave all the copies of FF7 because it's a symbol of hate against corporations.

As long as they keep their hands off my FF9 and its underlying message of love and peace, they can take the rest of the series straight to hell.



(Aside from 5, because that's my second fav of all time)

author=LockeZ
Of course, the reason they'll think this is that it'll have been ingrained into their heads by the corporations that control all of human civilization. But that's where our beliefs come from too - they were ingrained into us by the billions of individuals that refuse to give up control of their own lives.

And commercials telling us what to buy/think/do with our free time.

author=Roden
You don't see nazi statues standing around in Germany cause they're "art".

In fact, Germany is making such a stand to erase their history that anyone caught throwing up the Nazi salute even in jest gets jail time/a massive fine.

Sorry to jump into this conversation, but as I live in Germany, I feel like I should clarify something here. Sure, there are groups here that try to pretend history didn't happen, just like there are groups that try to glorify the horrible and disgusting things German people have done during (and sometimes before and after) the Nazi reign. Germany is far from perfect, and small amounts of terrible people exist everywhere, unfortunately.

However, as a whole, claiming that the state of Germany is trying to "erase" the bad parts of its history is simply utterly incorrect. On the contrary, even. Learning about what exactly happened during the time of the Nazis has a big place in education, and the state puts considerable effort into making sure people are confronted with the workings of the fascist ideology in a context where they can learn how twisted it was, and what strategies its promoters used to brainwash so many people.

The reason why Nazi material and symbols are illegal in Germany isn't because a majority of us are trying to deny this part of history. It's because we know what absolutely horrifying actions were taken in the name of this ideology. Showing Nazi symbols or spreading fascist propaganda is considered such a huge offense here because it's generally acknowledged that doing so means the person doing it is openly making the statement that they believe some groups of people should rule the world, while others should be eradicated altogether. We've seen what this particular ideology can do and what has been done in its name. So believe it or not, but most German people are pretty okay with using legal action to push back the propagation of a world view that through history has proven to be pretty much objectively pure evil.

That being said, movies and other media about Nazism are not illegal here, even if they include Nazi symbolism. History books for school even contain some paragraphs from "Mein Kampf" (which, in its original version, is illegal), and museums sometimes exhibit Nazi "art". The legal offense isn't in displaying this stuff in and of itself, it's in the context it's used in. The point being that this material was originally intended to propagate this horrible ideology, which is now fortunately considered unacceptable, but if it is accompanied by commentary that exposes its manipulative potential, for example for educational purposes, that's a whole different matter.

Short version: You're not allowed to make Nazis look cool, exciting or fun, or to glorify Nazi propaganda. The point of that is not to erase history, but to make sure people don't get tricked into seeing history through the perverted filter of the Nazi ideology.

That's nonsense! The death of a person is far more significant than the death of an idea, especially when that idea entails the view that murder and genocide are good things. Nobody can stop you from thinking whatever you want, but banning people from publicly encouraging others to do evil is in no way even remotely as bad as letting those ideas spread and be turned into actions unhindered.

If someone wants to promote the view that hurting and killing others is a positive course of action, then why would you want to defend that? There are only very few things that are more important and valuable than free speech, but people's very lives and safety from harm, violence and discrimination are some of those things.

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Gourd_Clae
I mean, germany also has a history with nazism (and ties by blood in a lot more cases) so that could be a factor. Blaming censorship doesn't quite seem accurate.

Yeah like something tells me that if being a nazi was illegal in the states you wouldn't see so many alt-righters marching around saluting and saying "heil Trump" while their friends kill protesters with sportscars, all while being protected and favoured for protection by the cops

I feel like this may solve some problems, again, not sure here

author=Sated
My point is that censorship isn't exactly stopping it. Education would be far more effective if properly used. The same is known to be true of radical Islam; that identifying those at risk of radicalisation and educating them otherwise is infinitely more effective than outlawing Islamist material.

I mean, it's not like it's fucking hard to find such "outlawed" material online if you look. Trying to remove freedom of speech and censor objectionable ideological material is, at this point, dumber than the prohibition was. And that was a really fucking dumb idea.

Obviously it's not stopping things completely, but I think that this combined with education is the way to essentially eradicate it in the future. It seems to me that germany would be worse off without the ban/education since it has such strong roots in nazism (and honestly WWII was not THAT long ago). It's not as clear if a ban + education in america would be effective, but it seems possible.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing - it can help without completely eradicating. Plus, with less and less people being directly exposed to nazi rhetoric it seems hard to believe many people wold actively seek out. Even then the people who seek it out and are convinced would have a harder time spreading it. Which means less people should seek it out etc etc

In theory at least! I dunno I just don't like seeing innocent people hurt because of it. Using the legal system seems like it'd be more effective than... whatever we're doing now.

Here is my super pro tip: You can record and remember history in lots of different ways! Context and framing is important. How you elevate the heroes, remember and reflect on the atrocities, and learn from errors. Statues of heroes should be placed grand and tall in public places. People whose actions, ideals, and principles that helped shape society for the better, who fought for a better world, rolemodels for future generations to strive and achieve. People like Fredrick Douglass and John Brown. Replace every Confederate statue on public grounds with statues of people who fought to end slavery, rename every public road and public school named after traitors and those that believed other humans could be property. The CSA should not be glorified, their leaders not used as a symbol of oppression, which is what those statues are.

Atrocities are still remembered. Auschwitz still stands and it serves as a memorial of the atrocities inflicted on the Jewish and Roma and other victims of the Nazis. You do the same: A somber place to learn of the horrible things people and nations inflicted on others, where victims are remembered, and an apology and promise of never again. You don't throw a giant Adolf Hitler statue outside throwing Seig Heil.

I was going to write a third paragraph here of stopping the whitewashing of history, teaching about the American Civil War in school and that the CSA were the baddies for fighting to maintain slavery should be absorbed into the collective knowledge of society but I'm out of energy to post here about it (and really the subject is huge and writing a good case is beyond my dumb abilities). Have a gif instead:

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