ANY RM GAMES/PROTOTYPES WITH A PURER GRAPPLING COMBAT SYSTEM?

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The below is not related to a grappling combat system but I don't know how to explain what I mean by purer grappling system without explaining it.

Anyway this is purely from my head. I don't have anything written down nor do I know how to script this nor have I looked long and hard for a script to do this nor have I even tried to change the actual database of rpgmaker's combat system.

I just read a tutorial that you can have bars for anything in rpgmaker and I'm trying to think up of a fall-back stock combat system that is on one hand simple but on the other hand wouldn't make me slack off on the design part by making me turn a lazy map into a dungeon crawling grindfest.

I decided that for rpgmaker's design, a 2 bar combat system would be ideal but it just wasn't enough.

The 2 bar system is basically a dual tug of war system where you can lose not just if your HP goes down to 0 but if the other bar goes down to a 100 even if your HP is at 100%. The games I saw this in used the 2nd bar as a lust meter. Maybe there have been other systems that uses that but I can't remember any example that is as notable or opens up such diverse gameplay strategies. (It's actually one of the issues I can't figure out. How to rename the lust meter so that it can apply to more general games. Only other meter I've seen of this nature that was also notable is an insanity meter but I just can't help but think you're not supposed to lose when you go insane but instead turn berserk)

Anyway the above is one of the many reasons why I couldn't be satisfied with a 2 bar system so I plan to have a 3 bar system where the final bar is an endurance meter that basically works like this:

-Enemy grapples = paralyze effect
-Shrugging off the effect uses up the meter instead of time based
-While grappled/paralyzed, the enemy can trade hp damage at the price of paralyzed duration by using the grappled player as a shield.

Obviously this doesn't come anywhere near a true grappling system but I consider this purer because grappling actually changes the dynamic of the fight via grabbing and not just perform a melee contact body impact damage type of design.

The game doesn't need to be similar to the above example either. It just has to have some dynamic where grappling means more than damage or status effect. The more varied the better. I'm not looking so much to play a fun game as much as I'm curious what the game designers did to bypass the graphical and animation limitations of rpgmaker.

Anyway the inspiration for this topic came because I recall a DnD comment that said grappling systems were a mess in PnP. I don't play PnP so I don't know if they improved upon this but considering my more meta-threads has been locked, I thought this would be much simpler than a thread asking for designs where the designers used dated methods to work around actions that normally need a more advanced animated engine to perform.
kentona
I am tired of Earth. These people. I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives.
20836
WWE: The RPG.

To answer your question, I have not heard of any RM game like that.
Were you referring to conceptual posts like this: http://www.kickoutwrestling.com/2011/03/wwe-rpg.html or (I assume) PnP games like this: http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12035.phtml

If it's the latter, can you explain what makes the grappling system in those notable? Seems like a lot of broken links and game designs much closer to say... the martial artists from Live-A-Live or Jean from Lunar 2.

I'm not saying they sound exactly like those but since you didn't elaborate, forgive me if I'm skeptical. Many games even 3d ones have grappling oriented brands in them but rarely true grappling or even purer grappling systems and I couldn't spot anything notable from those.

Couldn't spot any more WWE Rpgs from Google unless you mean things like Story Modes for the No Mercy, DoR and Smackdown games.

Edit:

Forgot to expand on this for those who can't fathom the difference of why even grappling oriented games may not be encompassing purer grappling systems.

Most WWE rpg concepts I've encountered (this doesn't include the WWE: The Rpg as I've never played it) are often based on "buy the moves" system. The reason they aren't pure grappling even the fighting games ones are because they rarely include any attempt at physics when you grab someone so you might as well have a wizard with fire fingers touching a victim and changing the animation around. The more rpg or sim-ish these concepts get, the more they simply expand the move list or they create pseudo-situations like say positional grappling and reversals. The closest I've encountered to these games having any concept close to grappling is the ole "too big to life" when grappling someone.

In contrast, purer grappling systems tend to be setup systems. For example the Enchanter in Mage Duel Extreme comes much closer to a purer grappling system than the WWE games I've encountered even though the Enchanter doesn't grapple at all because it is a class that tend to rely on putting your opponent to sleep first (the equivalent of a grab) and then dishing out damage and stat reductions/stat buffs based on the situation.

The reason the Enchanter differs from your textbook Wizard casting a status spell though is that the Enchanter has little to no damage inflicting spells or attacks. Every advantage you get relies on them incapacitating an enemy somehow/some way and then depending on how you did that, the next advantage opens up and it just doesn't stop there. It's constantly reactionary based on when your opponent wakes and what conditions both of you are in. Of course the Enchanter is forced to play like this and you don't get a purer grappling combat unless you're playing against another Enchanter but the ai is poorer at setting things up which is what makes the idea of someone doing this in a Rpgmaker game that much interesting from the perspective of game design.
kentona
I am tired of Earth. These people. I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives.
20836
'WWE: The RPG' was a throwaway non-sensical joke, btw. grappling -> wrestling -> WWE + wanting an RPG = WWE: The RPG.

The game does not exist. But you should make a game. Seriously.
But have you taken into account that the "WWE: The RPG" may in fact lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Pellentesque laoreet dapibus massa, eget mollis mauris varius sit amet. Mauris eu fermentum ipsum. Nunc ornare cursus tortor, eget consectetur libero molestie sed. Suspendisse potenti. Sed mauris neque, cursus vitae malesuada vel, luctus varius ligula. Cras justo ligula, sagittis non adipiscing eu, posuere quis sem. Fusce aliquet gravida felis, blandit posuere turpis interdum quis. Integer lacinia turpis eget ipsum tincidunt varius eu cursus est. Phasellus quis lectus felis, sed ultrices est. Suspendisse potenti. Praesent metus metus, euismod vitae tincidunt vitae, tristique sit amet magna.

Vestibulum ante ipsum primis in faucibus orci luctus et ultrices posuere cubilia Curae; Aenean hendrerit turpis et sapien cursus ac sagittis ligula faucibus. Donec erat neque, ornare nec congue id, consequat eget nisi. Aliquam erat volutpat. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Proin elementum placerat egestas. Maecenas neque metus, scelerisque cursus vehicula a, adipiscing sed justo. Proin elementum sapien id augue dignissim id suscipit est dapibus. Donec sagittis neque at massa pharetra adipiscing. Quisque fermentum nunc id felis gravida sollicitudin et ut dolor. Aliquam erat volutpat. Cras et risus ut dolor placerat imperdiet non a risus. Phasellus pharetra nisi eget lorem elementum eu gravida tortor tempor. Morbi id urna urna. Nunc ullamcorper ultrices massa at viverra. Ut fermentum risus faucibus ligula euismod vitae condimentum nibh posuere.

Cras et tellus sit amet enim vestibulum suscipit. Phasellus tristique, elit vel pharetra varius, sapien est sollicitudin diam, ac aliquam dolor neque ut erat. Etiam ante nulla, pretium sed lacinia ut, auctor vel quam. Aenean vitae adipiscing urna. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Vestibulum ante ipsum primis in faucibus orci luctus et ultrices posuere cubilia Curae; Donec nunc neque, adipiscing imperdiet pulvinar eget, eleifend sed velit. Nullam malesuada adipiscing metus lobortis sollicitudin. Etiam ac eros eget tellus hendrerit luctus in eu nulla. Donec a neque metus. Suspendisse sit amet ipsum dolor. Nulla suscipit sapien vel magna semper vel pharetra augue tristique. Aliquam nec eros nisl. Praesent blandit diam ac lacus euismod vitae consequat urna malesuada.

In vel lectus turpis. Sed diam ligula, elementum ac vehicula quis, convallis ac ipsum. Suspendisse eu massa eget justo ornare vestibulum. Suspendisse lorem felis, vehicula vitae posuere eleifend, viverra ut mi. Donec sollicitudin tortor nec arcu viverra congue. Pellentesque imperdiet tempus condimentum. Maecenas orci tortor, eleifend ac venenatis non, facilisis et massa. Aliquam erat volutpat. Vivamus iaculis dui sed orci fringilla tincidunt. Integer tellus erat, rhoncus eget luctus vel, varius eu mauris. Donec gravida orci tempor turpis convallis non vehicula metus placerat.

Suspendisse ultricies ligula eget augue molestie accumsan. In augue arcu, ultricies eget tincidunt quis, eleifend a ligula. Praesent leo turpis, facilisis vel commodo sit amet, sagittis quis quam. Phasellus vel luctus sapien. Sed sed turpis felis, vel convallis neque. Aliquam erat volutpat. Vivamus eget nibh sit amet ligula hendrerit elementum. Proin vel mauris non diam dapibus molestie. Nulla cursus ante eget urna elementum pellentesque. Therefore, it was probably a joke.
User was warned for this post
What the hell, Pepsi. Stop freaking mocking a new user.

In any case, snodgrass, by tug-of-war system, can it be or is it something like this:


Minus the real-time and the constant tapping, of course.

It certainly can be implementable.
author=Snodgrass
I decided that for rpgmaker's design, a 2 bar combat system would be ideal but it just wasn't enough.

The 2 bar system is basically a dual tug of war system where you can lose not just if your HP goes down to 0 but if the other bar goes down to a 100 even if your HP is at 100%. The games I saw this in used the 2nd bar as a lust meter. Maybe there have been other systems that uses that but I can't remember any example that is as notable or opens up such diverse gameplay strategies.

You mean something like this?



It's not difficult. However many 'tug of war' bars you want isn't limited. I have two here, you can have 20 if you want, it's just more work. Just remember learning curve. You can't have 3, 4, 5 mini game variables for the gamer to remember the first time they play it.

I might actually help you on this Snodgrass. If you are looking for a good grappling system, look at the Players Handbook for Dungeons and Dragons 3.0 or 4.0 rules.

The rules handle grappling like this: A player makes a grapple and if a successful die roll was made, the opponent makes an opposing roll to resist the attempted grapple. If the grapple is successful, other players can preform free hits on the grappled player or the grapple can try to pin his opponent. Grappling roles are always opposed with an opposing roll. Successful grapples bind the opponent more and failed rolls free the opponent with a chance of counter attack That is what makes grappling work for DnD.

Here are grappling rules in DnD
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050301a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050308a

To address Live a Live's wrestling story, The wrestling moves were just standard attacks with wrestling themed names and graphics. There are standard hits, stat inducing attacks, and attacks that become restricted when a "body part" is struck.(remove abilities 1,2, and 3 for 3 turns if "arm hit was successful) None of the moves are actually grappling attacks.

A 2 bar system might be ok, but what if you made a system where strength, defense, and HP determine grappling handlers. Strength would be the force of the grapple, defense would be the resilience of resisting the grapple and the current HP determines the performance of force and resilience.
@ elipswich and @ Sauce, no. Those are one bar combat systems.

For simplicity's sake, imagine if the MP bar in a combat system was replaced with a system that goes up and once it goes up, you lose.

Yes, Live-A-Live wasn't a pure grappling system. I wrote that post to elaborate on why a grappling based system might not be relating to pure grappling.

Things like the DnD handbook is what I was alluding to when I said grappling was convoluted in PnP. I'm not sure if the old post I had read was referring to 3.0 and 4.0 rules though but look at your description:

Grappling roles are always opposed with an opposing roll.

This makes it not ideal for simple combat systems but it's also too luck based where as in real life, the reason that grappling is effective is because it's more of a free action and there's always a cardio blowback to a semi-successful grapple (and there's no zero-sum fail grapple criteria) where as in DnD, from the sound of it, counter-grapples are purely defensive so they aren't as valuable as the other systems in DnD. I haven't played an actual PnP system though but I would imagine it can get convoluted when all grapple initiates are considered equal and then all the reward is a paralyze->allowance for chain attack.

Also I'm using a 3 bar system. My idea did plan for stats to improve the bar but only within the terms of lengthening the reduction like HP bar increases.

The problem with linking str to the force of the grapple is that grappling is more technique than strength and where strength is present, it requires superior force at the price of simply pushing ahead as opposed to pinning. Then pinning is a different form related much more to strength endurance than explosiveness.

Of course the point isn't to make a super realistic grappling system, just to have a system that actually takes into account grappling's special qualities as opposed to making it a gimmicky third choice when physical and magical systems are so powerful.

For example, one of the basic values of grappling systems are that they are taxing on the body. Even with high strength, with the wrong leverage then someone can quickly pop out. It's not your traditional resilience. It's a more advanced paralyze/pin system.

That's only the first quirk. The most valuable conditional quirks after that is what revolutionizes the combat system.

Some examples:

-In a game with no formation systems, grappling can create a pseudo-formation system that's more advanced.

-A repeat of my above example: If you can use someone you grappled as a shield, that redefines tanking and it could even allow for a game with zero tanks to have a tanking alternative. Nevermind the attention to carefully time powerful attacks for fear that the opponent uses a mage as a shield

-It introduces true attrition. Many times attrition in JRPGs aren't ideal except for debuffing bosses because the faster you wittle down the hp of someone the better and the less healing items you need to expend. You also are rarely rewarded for paralyzing an enemy because they don't have to expend their MPs when they are subdued. This makes attrition often ideal only when there is only one opponent

-Another value is that it's a different form of stat debuff. There's a reason some skills are often named "cut arm" to disable an attacker's strength but then the attacker could just recover or else it's too unbalanced. Grappling systems addresses some of the flaws by creating a "third range". Melee/range and sacrificial. (Near death opponent grabs and his teammates casts an AoE spell, opponent dies but they get an extra turn that's different from paralyze)

-Another potential thing grappling could do is to redefine ambushes as well as push the combat into a 1 vs. 1 fight. This is more common sense in PnP but in rpgs it can be troublesome especially for games like the default combat system when there's no caterpillar combat formation but even those that have these, you often see the troublesome strategic advise of fighting/luring your opponents in a 1 vs. 1 fight through "bird's eye" view abuse as opposed to a system closer to real fights where it's done within the flow of footwork.

-Finally another benefit of a purer grappling system is that it motivates systems to enable things such as endurance bars. An ambitious developer can expand this to the equivalent of the JRPG non-violent kill for storyline purposes where you exhaust your opponent. For simpler usage, the fact that it's not linked to HP is the point of a 2/3 bar tug of war system.

In a 2 bar system for example, a basic combat system suddenly has a richer strategy system and makes you pay more attention if suddenly you get 50 Hp/50 lust meter.

Imagine if you attack the HP bar and it went down to 20 but your enemy attacks the lust meter and it goes up to 75. Do you try to stave off one meter or do you continue on attacking? It even gets more strategic when it comes to healing and spells.

You can't just heal your HP and think, "Oh I just have to double potion use and ignore my MP since survival trumps all." Same goes for spells: Imagine if spells are linked to fatigue and because a grappling system is present, there's no need to make spellcasters a decent physical attacker at all. You'd get strategies such as a Wizard grappling and then being given an MP recovery item by a teammate. Of course for that sequence to even be a viable regular occuring choice, traditional tank stats like str, def and HP shouldn't be linked to grappling.

To be honest though, these are only vague examples. The reason I even asked is because I don't totally know the full ramifications and full potential of purer grappling systems. I just read somethings here and there and I just thought through some examples here and there.

Edit: Another clear cut difference between DnD Handbook grappling from purer grappling systems is from watching how some cartoons like Shrek defeat giant monsters. Obviously this shouldn't be taken too seriously but the elements of why grappling is misrepresented still shows: In movies and novels, it's ideal to grapple because if you succeed a dragon has to topple you before their breath attacks hit you. Of course in a more sensible fantasy setting being swung off = instant stomp death. Still...compared to traditional DnD, grapples trump sword/magic styles in enough applicable situations to stand on it's own. Yet DnD appears to not understand that. Making grappling more like power lifting competitions. The consequence of not designing for a purer grappling criteria results in grappling being only slightly more useful against opponents and opponents one can overpower no less. Almost the complete opposite of why grappling allows a smaller or weaker person in real life to make up for their deficiencies against a stronger and larger opponent.
@Snodgrass, no. There's two bars in my minigame. Not one. Endurance and momentum. You lose if either endurance runs out or momentum swings to the opponent.

Like I said, even if you want 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 1000 variables, it's very possible. It's all a matter of making a game with reasonable difficulty or learning curve.

Anyway, that's my answer to your topic. Yes, multivariable grappling exists. Of course the rest of your posts have nothing to do with your topic.

Now... is the question about actual programming of an idea or just the theory?

Because the only reasonable response to the theory is "be creative." Programming, people can help with.
Snodgrass, There is a lack of coherence in your recent post. Organize your sentences so that the following sentences reference the sentences before them. What is "it," what is "that," and what the heck are these stray thoughts in your paragraphs?

I will go back to making my game now.
author=Biggamefreak
Snodgrass, There is a lack of coherence in all your posts.


Yeah, and first of all, multi bar battle systems have nothing to do with grappling. That's entirely two different concepts, and you'd get much better responses if you kept them separate instead of mashing them together into one topic.

And don't bother writing an essay on why they're related. They're not.

There's a lack of coherence in the actual DnD Handbook on grappling. That's why it's not very realistic. I organize the criticism to the best way you can highlight the very obvious multiple flawed conceptual game design aspects of that system.

Responsibility falls on the guy who brought that up and runs away when it's actually analyzed.

Some of the other ignorant stuff in that link with regards to grappling:

A grapple attack begins with grabbing a foe.

For most player characters, grabbing a foe for a grapple attack requires a successful melee touch attack.

The grab provokes an attack of opportunity from the foe being grabbed

Believe me I could have done a lot more if I was actually writing a criticism article. That's how bad the grappling pages were.

I saved you guys the trouble by bringing up some of the most obvious aspects. If you don't want to touch any details and just cry lack of coherence then it's very clear where your priorities lie.

Oh and Sauce, again, you have already experienced this in the Visual Aspects vs. Others thread how sometimes it's not on you that's the problem but on people who think you didn't mention something you did mention. I suggest you actually do that before throwing out wrong predictions like maybe I am going to write an essay of why they're related and bringing up straw men like I'm somehow claiming multi bar battle systems have something to do with grappling when the first sentence in the OP states:

The below is not related to a grappling combat system but I don't know how to explain what I mean by purer grappling system without explaining it.


Also something to keep in mind is that an image is not a video. The way those bars are so close, as an image, it's easy to mistake it as one bar.

Also the reason why I just dismissed it as one bar instead of speaking more of it is because the system is just invalid for being a mini-game. I'm talking about a general combat system mechanic. I didn't want to touch on this issue at all because as you implied I don't want to write an essay on the obvious.

Also ask yourself if this question has any coherency:

Now... is the question about actual programming of an idea or just the theory?

I hope you yourself understand what a theory is? It's that stuff that requires experimentation and verification methods like double blind tests?

There's no such thing in the world as "just the theory".

...and I also hope you can connect two and two together. I don't really want to insult your intelligence but how in the world can a thread request a game/prototype and have it not be about "the actual programming of an idea"?

Also, again, you're stretching the retardation of your conclusions. No one has ever brought up the term "multi-variable grappling" and you're the one on the same sentence claiming the rest of my post has nothing to do with my topic?!

Not that multi-variable grappling can't be related to the topic with the right definition but you didn't even specify the variables that are being talked about. Every game including WWE games have multi-variables. It doesn't mean they automatically count as purer grappling by design.

Again, I'm not trying to insult you as a person but just from the way you guys post - you throw out such retarded wordings, run off and then expect me to organize the incorrect/flawed/incomplete references you brought up?

Just your screenshot alone I could go on an entire essay using the same wording I already gave in the OP to specifically point out what's not pure grappling about it but then you will just say I am being incoherent because you immediately insist that maybe you got the main point correctly.

Look...Sauce. I admit I was mistaken with that image because of the deceptive optical illusion created by the image but here's how you can tell when a system is easily not what a system someone else is talking about. I could make a pure copy paste analogy with no additional words and I can still show the core flaw as to why what you're talking about isn't a pure grappling system because it's so far off (It is a dual bar system that much I admit):

There's two bars in my minigame. Not one. Endurance and momentum. You lose if either endurance runs out or momentum swings to the opponent.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_athletics

Strength athletics, more generally known as strongman competitions, is a sport which tests competitors' strength in a variety of different ways. Some of the disciplines are similar to those in powerlifting and some powerlifters have also successfully competed in strongman competitions. However, strongman events also test physical endurance to a degree not found in powerlifting or other strength-based sports.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grappling

Grappling refers to techniques, maneuvers, and counters applied to an opponent in order to gain a physical advantage, such as improving relative position, escaping, submitting, or injury to the opponent.
IS THIS REALLY HAPPENING

I mean... Wall of Text + BB Abuse.

Snodgrass, I enjoyed some of your earlier posts. But if the number of characters in your post keep growing exponentially like this, I'm afraid nobody can keep up.

Mixing bold, italic and underline make it worse.
If Sauce and Biggamefreak actually man up to their posts, I don't even need to post 75% of my last reply.

I already brought up PnP grappling and Biggamefreak introduced the more direct DnD links while also going out on the effort to align it with a JRPG stat system. How should I know he would come back with "Your post lack coherence".

Ditto with Sauce. Most of the formatted parts occurred because I had to show him the insanity of making predictions that were already stated/predicted to happen in the OP.

Most of my post-OP long post replies have been this way. If I'm not busy bringing up statements that state I already addressed this, I'm busy dealing with people who pretend to have something to say but then cop out making my own replies unnecessary. Of course the debugging thread doesn't count because I was actually asking for help and because that's where most of the trolls made their stand.

Frankly that's just the nature of the beast. If guys give 50 and I give 50, we can all meet up at 100. Lengthy posts that are only as lengthy as necessary.

Instead, guys give less I give more and then they run away and I have to defend two and more sides. One side taking into account addressing similar people who have the same misconceptions that might post and the other side whom I have to point out the clear flaw of their statements so that things need not be restated or I can have the advantage of linking/quoting back to a previous statement instead of dealing/re-addressing a statement that is so retarded it shouldn't have been brought up anyway and is based on false accusations anyway such as "Of course the rest of your posts have nothing to do with your topic."

There's also the fact that these people aren't trolls. At least if they are, they are being too stealthy and doing it wrong. These are guys who appear to give up their own time to contribute to a thread thinking they have something to offer and they go out of way to post things that can branch out to more text. When you give respect to the actual contents of these guys, you're bound to have a longer reply too. Believe me I would love it if these guys actually make it so I don't have to write more.

I mean just look at statements like these: That's entirely two different concepts, and you'd get much better responses if you kept them separate instead of mashing them together into one topic.

If I don't bold this:

The below is not related to a grappling combat system but I don't know how to explain what I mean by purer grappling system without explaining it.

The guy would actually go on thinking there are two entirely different concepts being talked about when there's only one. (It's not like he will come around and figure this out on his own before writing his next post) Add that this is one of those guys that actually reply to the thread rather than troll and cause trouble, do you really think it's not to my benefit to correct this guy's premise so that he could actually align himself to the topic and properly contribute?

Threads like mine are already not designed for the general masses so I can't just shoo the few who try to contribute. The last thing I need is these same people who have some understanding go full retard on me because they missed one or two key sentences/points/concepts.
Snod, maybe it'll be a lot better if you quote other people's posts more often, so that other people will know exactly what you're saying to them and such. I notice you hardly use quotes and that's why people are confused. They are lost in which part of your post is directed at who. Just mentioning someone's name, though, is not good enough.

That's why quotes are great, because that way, people will know you are directly responding a certain part of your post to those specific quotes.

And also, in case you didn't know, you don't have to quote the "whole" of someone's post. You can quote bit by bit. Like this:

author=Snodgrass
If Sauce and Biggamefreak actually man up to their posts, I don't even need to post 75% of my last reply.

(Insert your message specific to this quote)

author=Snodgrass
Most of my post-OP long post replies have been this way. If I'm not busy bringing up statements that state I already addressed this, I'm busy dealing with people who pretend to have something to say but then cop out making my own replies unnecessary. Of course the debugging thread doesn't count because I was actually asking for help and because that's where most of the trolls made their stand.

(Insert your message specific to this quote)

author=Snodgrass
Threads like mine are already not designed for the general masses so I can't just shoo the few who try to contribute. The last thing I need is these same people who have some understanding go full retard on me because they missed one or two key sentences/points/concepts.

It will help, trust me.

Text, after all, is completely different from speech. If it's speech, it'll probably work. But this is a discussion topic on a computer screen. Not all repliers will sit down in front of their computers and read through everything, but I'm sure you already know that (Computer screens hurt the eyes over long hours).

Okay, I'll let the next person get the topic back on track, if anyone can begin to understand, that is...
kentona
I am tired of Earth. These people. I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives.
20836
This has gotten out of hand.
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