GAY CHARACTERS

emmych
Sorry to take the thread off topic, but holy banana fish I'm sick to death of gay characters only talking about how gay they are or finding out what it means to be gay and blah blah blah fuck no stopppp

Fun fact: gay people in real life don't walk around saying "hi my name is Laurence and I'm a fag!" If they do, you should probably punch them for me. I hate people who do that. We'll figure it out when you stare at that dude, thanks.

Well, I mean, there is the flamer culture that is basically going "I AM GOING TO DRESS AND TALK LIKE A FAG SO THAT OTHER FAGS KNOW THAT I'M A FAG SO THAT THEY CAN FUCK ME LIKE THE TRICK I AM" but that's less a product of homosexuality a more a product of heterosexual oppression, like having to put your fingers under the bathroom stall divider or something gross like that

EDIT: Fuck I pagesniped your awesome post emmych, EVERYBODY GO READ IT GOGOGO

@Craze: I think the only time I'm ever all "HELLO MY NAME IS EMMYCH AND I AM A BISEXUAL WOMAN" is when I'm trying to be all "hey look at me being a human being with more than just my sexuality also PS bisexuality is a thing and I am not a mythical unicorn okaaaay". I mean... if people want to be really obvious all the time, THAT IS THEIR CHOICE and whatever but it doesn't do a thing to stop pounding in negative stereotypes, you know? I mean, I appreciate it for the whole getting up in people's faces and reminding jerkasses that WE ARE HERE AND WE ARE QUEER~ but I kinda feel like, yeah, people get it, we're here -- now start treating us like how you treat straight folks, a'ight?

And yup it is definitely a cause of living in a heteronormative culture, same as how the 90s ICE QUEEN CAREER WOMAN WHO JUST WANTS TO BE LOVED~ character archetype is a product of women living in a man's world, or any number of race stereotypes that I can't actually think of right now are the product of living in a white world.

Like, no, guys, not every one is white and male and straight and Christian and rich and good looking. Please stop making this what is seen as the default, normal human being. OTL

...SORRY GUYS I KEEP LEAKING RANTS EVERYWHERE
I'm just going to slink back into my corner and mak some gam that hopefully doesn't do all these things that I'm complaining about. OTL

author=Craze
Well, I mean, there is the flamer culture that is basically going "I AM GOING TO DRESS AND TALK LIKE A FAG SO THAT OTHER FAGS KNOW THAT I'M A FAG SO THAT THEY CAN FUCK ME LIKE THE TRICK I AM"

oh god yes craze see this is why we are friends i am dying of laughter here

author=tpasmall
I don't think that having your protagonist fit this description is a bad thing if it's what you, as the creator of the game can relate to. So if someone enjoys flamboyant homosexual personalities, maybe they can relate to that in a game, idk.

See, but that's my point. Why can't we relate to someone that isn't exactly like us? I'm a woman, and I've had to play as male protagonists my entire life because female protagonists just don't exist in the mainstream beyond a create-a-character format. Saying that you can't relate to a character because they might be a "flamboyant homosexual" (assuming those two words go hand in hand is a little bit ignorant, imo; my best mate is a gay dude and he's one of the manliest bros I've ever met, and not in the slightest bit flamboyant) is silly, to me. I mean, we're all human beings, and we're all comprised of many different traits and desires and values and attributes. I can still relate to male characters because they're not just a man. Sure, maybe I don't relate to a character's gender. But I do relate to their values. Zidane in FF9 is all about helping people and staying positive, something that I also value, so I relate. I related to Lightning not because she was a woman, but because she was all about looking after her sister - and god damn I am protective of my little sister.

And it's not just in games, either -- how many female protagonists are there in anything? And, in that same vein, how many protagonists are gay? Fat? Have a developmental delay? Are of a different colour or class or creed?
See, when you think about "heroes" in things, you are almost always going to come up with a white male, because that is the "default". A female character is used when the story is about "woman problems", like overcoming gender barriers. A character of another colour is used when it's about racial issues. A gay character is used for coming out stories or preaching about homophobia. For all other issues, the character is a straight white man.

Why couldn't Cloud have been a woman, or black, or gay? How much would that really have changed (I mean... okay maybe the gay thing would have altered the story a little bit, because his relationships with Aeris and Tifa are important but blah blah you get the point here)? His personality would have been the same, his backstory would have been the same, his place in the world would have been no different because having one or all of these traits are only parts of a character, not everything they are.

I'm a queer woman. I'm white. I'm not exactly rich. But I'm also funny, I can also draw, I also like to get into fights about stupid things and play video games until ungodly hours of the morning and eat Subway sandwiches instead of cooking and I don't like cleaning my house and I like walking to get groceries because it makes my legs feel strong and I like talking to random people and making them smile and reaching out to those who need help and working to make the world a better place to live for everyone in it and I have trouble taking myself seriously so I joke all the time and I suffer from depression and I have a weak stomach when it comes to horror movies and I play the piano sometimes and I like to sing and I used to do theatre and I get really mad about stupid things and one of my pet peeves is when people leave cupboard doors open in the kitchen and I value my relationships with my family and I can be a bit of a lone wolf and I have trouble trusting people and I beat myself up over things and I wallow in guilt a lot and and and blah blah blah etc. etc. etc.

That's only a fraction of who I am, but surely there's one thing in there that you can go "oh, hey, I relate to that!" or is even vaguely familiar to you. This is my point -- when it all comes down to it, we are all human beings and a character's gender, race, sexuality or whatever shouldn't be a barrier for how the audience relates to them.

I don't disagree with you, I was just saying, what's wrong with that? If you can relate to a character for their personality, it shouldn't matter if they are a straight white guy either right?

author=emmych
Saying that you can't relate to a character because they might be a "flamboyant homosexual" (assuming those two words go hand in hand is a little bit ignorant)

I wasn't saying all homosexual's are flamboyant, I was following up on Craze's post that most gay people in the real world aren't like that. But, some people may want a character that is like that, which is the point I was trying to make.

I realize we're all human beings, and I agree that we all have our own preferences. I think a broad view of that idea would be letting people relate to whoever they want to in the vast gamut of personalities and backgrounds. Whether someones preference is narrow or broad should make no impact on your preference.

author=tpasmall
I don't disagree with you, I was just saying, what's wrong with that? If you can relate to a character for their personality, it shouldn't matter if they are a straight white guy either right?

It's a problem because anyone who doesn't fit that exact mold is excluded and pushed to the sidelines. It's a problem because everyone defaults to it. Finally, it's a problem because what we see in the media will affect how we see people in real life, unless we're, like... hyper conscious of it. It's a problem because, like I said before, straight white dudes deal with "problems" while everyone else deals with gender specific or sexuality specific or race specific problems. By having the default character be a white dude, we're essentially perpetuating the idea that anyone who isn't a white dude doesn't deal with these problems!

Back in 2009, I didn't give my game a female/non-white/non-straight hero because that's just not how it's done. I later realized that was a stupid reason to do that and have since changed the two latter things (so now he's bisexual and, uh... I dunno, the races in my world are kinda mixes of Earth races, so I guess I'd call his race sort-of-Asian-but-with-Caucasian-hair-colours, even if my mediocre art skills don't show this especially well) and made the heroine actually act like a heroine rather than an important side character and love interest -- as in, there's two protagonists and the focus is evenly divided between both of them, with the heroine taking control of her party for the second part of the game.

Next game I have planned out (that I starting thinking about a few months ago) has an east-Indian, whip-wielding lady-loving lady pirate as the protag and oh man I already love her but y'all will have to wait awhile before you see anything about that project, ah-hahahaha OTL

Both characters, however, deal with guilt, deal with hardship, deal with sadness, deal with pressures, with FEELINGS~, with being a leader, with tough political situations, with adjusting to party members, with world-altering disasters and blah blah blah typical JRPG stuff.

You ask "what's the problem with having a white dude as the MC?", and I'll counter that with "what's the problem with not having a white dude as the MC?" Why do something different? I say, why not? The world is a diverse place full of all different kinds of people, and more than just white dudes should be represented in entertainment.

Emmych will now go write an article on this because I would read it like five times.
And I now want to play your game with the pirate...
Speaking of "different" protagonists, I was actually planning a game with a lady protagonist whose gender has no impact on the plot other than the fact she hangs around a dude. It'll take me a while, though.

author=emmych
It's a problem because anyone who doesn't fit that exact mold is excluded and pushed to the sidelines. It's a problem because everyone defaults to it. Finally, it's a problem because what we see in the media will affect how we see people in real life, unless we're, like... hyper conscious of it. It's a problem because, like I said before, straight white dudes deal with "problems" while everyone else deals with gender specific or sexuality specific or race specific problems. By having the default character be a white dude, we're essentially perpetuating the idea that anyone who isn't a white dude doesn't deal with these problems!

So it would be bigoted to use a white male protagonist simply because he's a white male?

Versalia

Craze
Well, I mean, there is the flamer culture that is basically going "I AM GOING TO DRESS AND TALK LIKE A FAG SO THAT OTHER FAGS KNOW THAT I'M A FAG SO THAT THEY CAN FUCK ME LIKE THE TRICK I AM"

why do you talk about me like this ;O;

I have no idea why we are such good friends when we are so clearly the Puritan and the Devilfucker; probably because I, like, know you instead of insta-judging you.

AMAZING HOW THAT WORKS

More on-topic: I personally don't see the need to relate to the characters. Like, yeah, that can be fun; I have no issue with it happening, but creating characters for the purpose of relation just... meh. I can see how it'd be important for allegory, but most games aren't about/don't need such strong allegory. I'd rather craft unique characters that are who they are. I've made characters like me, but I've never completely based them on myself.

That said, just by the nature of me writing them all, they blend a bit; surprisingly fitting to the topic are Padrick and Jesse from the Edifice... saga? Chronicles? Timeline? Something. They're, uh, both gay. They fuck each other in the ass. (Well, okay, Jesse is the power bottom. He's kind of into dom/sub and while he seems like the archetypal top (despite being a rogue/mage hybrid), taking Padrick fulfills him. It's kind of a control thing - he's pretty wild, so Padrick controlling him in the most primal way is both sexy and comforting to him.)

Anyway, they're both a LOT like me, because while I don't craft them for the sake of relating to me/gay men/Christians/etc., that's what they are. Well, I'm not actually a Christian, although I believe in a higher being I call "God" - like Jesse, who is part of the Templar order as a field medic but only tentatively believes in the Goddess Helena. I'm also similar in terms of the Primal Way thing except my wildness is mental and not extroverted aggression. At the same time, Jesse is very much not like me because he's so physical and "rough;" I'm a solid Mainer but try to keep an air of sophistication (believe it or not). He also is way more material than I am.

These things just... happened organically. I design a character as a sketchy bio, and then just think about them and their reactions as I do shit, usually while shoveling snow or mowing the lawn. I never went "I want a wild gay dude ~ "; it just happened that way as I let their personality grow.

THE GREAT LOOP BACK INTO THE TOPIC:

Like emmych said, a character that is gay is just a character, and they happen to lick the dicksicles. It is what it is, and I personally don't think it's important to make them relatable. Maybe your mass-murdering villain is gay. Goodness knows Miller's Crossing is my favorite movie.

tpasmall
So it would be bigoted to use a white male protagonist simply because he's a white male?

Stop being so touchy. It's nice to see other characters, and it's important for the sake of representation, but of course having a white male MC is not INSTANT AZKABAN.