WHO CARES ABOUT CREDITS?

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LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
VINDICATION, A LOCKEZ PRODUCTION
LEAD DESIGNER - LOCKEZ
MAPPING - LOCKEZ
STORY - LOCKEZ
COMBAT - LOCKEZ
SCRIPTING - LOCKEZ
MUSIC BY NOBUO UEMATSU
*
VINDICATION
CREATED BY LOCKEZ
MUSIC FROM FINAL FANTASY
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
[pointless rant]I don't even think professional games and films should have credits to be honest, I think they should just list the director and the star actors at most, and that's only so viewers can seek out similar films. Sometimes I wonder if maybe there's something wrong with society when everyone demands personal recognition for work on anything creative and it's not enough for them to just know that they improved the product. Like I can understand wanting money, but credits don't do anything for you except boost your ego. If it's just for the sake of your resume, you don't need your name on it any more than you need your name inscribed on the wall at your office job to prove you worked there.

And it only happens for creative works. We don't attach credits to non-creative work, we don't read off a list of all the management and workers and contributors every time you get your TV repaired or buy a new sofa, or even when erecting a building or installing a multi-million dollar sound system. That's weird, right? What makes creative work deserve individual credits displayed to every consumer moreso than non-creative work?[/pointless rant]
I always read the credits to movies and shows when I was younger, games too. As a fledgling game designer, I think it is good to realize that some of these things I'd like to be making one day tend to take a three minute credit crawl worth of people working on them.

I always stick games and movies out until after the credits, in case there is some little gem there waiting at the end to reward the patient observer.

For the ending credit crawl of my star wars game (the old, completed, broken version) I made credits. I obviously credited myself for most things, but I pointed out which resources I used and where they came from, and I even pointed out where the inspiration for one of the ship designs originated. I think in recognizing the contributions of others, you're actually better able to respect your own work.

I don't want people to think I made things that I did not.

I like the idea of scrolling opening credits over an establishing shot in the game. These are the big contributors to the project, you get them out there first. At the end, you do the exhaustive list in a credits crawl.

I was in Odyssey of the Mind in highschool. To anyone not familiar with it, it is a creative competition with a number of different problems to solve each year. I was on the structure team. Teams had to design and present a skit/presentation with their long term problem solution. There was a specific set of forms set aside for Outside Assistance. This was basically anything that the team required help with. If someone's dad made a part of their set or worse, their solution, and it wasn't properly accounted for in the paperwork, the team could get disqualified. There was also a cost limit for the projects. This got us used to thinking in terms of paperwork and purchase orders so that we could account for every bit of the project that was ours, and the little bits that we had to have help with. It might seem like it was just a punitive measure, to bounce teams who had a lot of help, but the point of the competition was to judge what the teams created themselves. If a non-integral part of the team's solution was the product of heavy outside assistance, the judging panel didn't count it toward the total. Both the solutions to the long term problem and the style of the presentation were judged separately.

If the project heavily relies on outside assistance, such as making a game with existing scripts & resources, I think there should definitely be an effort made to give credit where due!
slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4158
Of course the most important thing is knowing that you made something great. Still, I would imagine it's nice walking down the street and someone goes "Hey, you made *this*! I loved *this* so much!" (Not that this happens a lot merely due to credits, but the principle is the same).

I have no shame in saying I have a huge ego and I like having fans. I like getting recognition. When you work on a project like a game or movie that requires a lot of blood, sweat and tears, it's nice to see your name on something at the end. You made something from start to finish, and there's the concrete proof.

One-liner: It's a guilty pleasure
Adon237
if i had an allowance, i would give it to rmn
1743
Like when I had Shortstar remap a lot of my stuff, I am making him a 'god' (one of many) and devising a sidequest in the game for him. Of course I can't do that for every little tiny thing, but I think it helps a whole ton.
Indra
YOU ARE BEING TOO AGGRO
11514
I have never in my life actually READ the credits at the END of a game. At the beggining, maaaayyybe once in a long while, but at the end the last thing I want is to read the credits, not because it wouldn't interest me, but because I don't feel like its important at the time (what with having beaten the game a minute ago).

So I actually make a Credits page in the start screen :I Works for me so far:

http://rpgmaker.net/media/content/games/3764/screenshots/title.png

http://rpgmaker.net/media/content/games/3764/screenshots/credits.png
Melkino
solos collectors on purpose
2021
I don't see the harm in including credits. Credits for things like sprites and tiles are important to me, so much so that I put the author's name of the asset in the filename, or just place their materials in a folder with their name on it. On my current project, the credits get their own page, but whether or not they'll be included in-game will be decided on whenever I get to the end.

If there could be links back to those credited people's websites (if possible) on the gamepage or readme, that'd be a very helpful timesaver for those looking for resources for their own projects in the future, similar to the Reference pages in academic journal articles. :)
cock

it took me a while to understand what the fuck was being said here because i have never considered creative attribution this way (i have no reason to) but i think i got it:

'SorceressKyrsty'
Sometimes credits really aren't enough compensation for the work put into something
'calunio'
It's whether they make a difference, and whether they're enough compensation

you really shouldnt think of being credited as compensation in the first place; cred and comp have jack shit to do with each other. giving credit as a substitute for compensation is an imaginary bargaining chip arrogantly peddled by mooching twits with nothing to give: one should not offer to credit the creator as if it were some kind of a tip or favor--one just does it by default because it is right/courteous to do so

'calunio'
Do credits cut it? Does anyone actually care about them?

irrelevant. this just depends on how you value your work/services (you either work for free or you dont). if the issue is rather that people tend to misvalue the worth of an attribution then like i said: it shouldn't be considered a form of compensation at all. yeah the representative audience member wont care but i didnt realize that this needed any examination. a credit roll is a) a personal nod to the creators themselves and b) a reference for other artists/developers

so i guess you could either a) agree or refuse to work/distribute for free and quit bitching or b) request other forms of compensation (skillset trade)

but i think what youre ultimately looking for, with the condition that your contribution is significant enough, is option c) requesting partial authorship. i havent really analyzed this but i think we can sort of wordlessly understand the distinction of being a collaborator from being a contributor

'calunio'
People always talk about giving credits, but in my mind, such credits are hardly noticeable text lines in the game ending like

Maps by Calunio

That no one will ever read, and if they do, they'll forget about it 2 seconds later.
'SorceressKyrsty'
Crediting every person who even somewhat touched CC prior to completion, even if they were unaware, was enough to have 3 minutes worth of scrolling credits.

In an RM* game you have a lot of resources coming from different sources depending on what you're using.

as for how one should credit creators i think that the answer lamely comes down to just being a 'best judgement thing'. its not productive and maybe not even possible to devise a blanket protocol for how people should be credited so the best that can be hoped for is that people are considerate and give proper weight to the attribution based on the contribution given. this is kind of shitty because i feel that this is in essence the core of the discussion but i dont have a better answer
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
Reading some of the responses here makes me regret helping people with their games in the past for credit.

For what it's worth, I care about credits, and read them, and am really careful to try and give credit to anyone who helps me. I read and pay attention to credits, too, unless it's literally just your name 46 consecutive times. I hate that shit.

author=sixe
cock

it took me a while to understand what the fuck was being said here because i have never considered creative attribution this way (i have no reason to) but i think i got it:

'SorceressKyrsty'
Sometimes credits really aren't enough compensation for the work put into something
'calunio'
It's whether they make a difference, and whether they're enough compensation

you really shouldnt think of being credited as compensation in the first place; cred and comp have jack shit to do with each other. giving credit as a substitute for compensation is an imaginary bargaining chip arrogantly peddled by mooching twits with nothing to give: one should not offer to credit the creator as if it were some kind of a tip or favor--one just does it by default because it is right/courteous to do so

'calunio'
Do credits cut it? Does anyone actually care about them?

irrelevant. this just depends on how you value your work/services (you either work for free or you dont). if the issue is rather that people tend to misvalue the worth of an attribution then like i said: it shouldn't be considered a form of compensation at all. yeah the representative audience member wont care but i didnt realize that this needed any examination. a credit roll is a) a personal nod to the creators themselves and b) a reference for other artists/developers

so i guess you could either a) agree or refuse to work/distribute for free and quit bitching or b) request other forms of compensation (skillset trade)

but i think what youre ultimately looking for, with the condition that your contribution is significant enough, is option c) requesting partial authorship. i havent really analyzed this but i think we can sort of wordlessly understand the distinction of being a collaborator from being a contributor

'calunio'
People always talk about giving credits, but in my mind, such credits are hardly noticeable text lines in the game ending like

Maps by Calunio

That no one will ever read, and if they do, they'll forget about it 2 seconds later.
'SorceressKyrsty'
Crediting every person who even somewhat touched CC prior to completion, even if they were unaware, was enough to have 3 minutes worth of scrolling credits.

In an RM* game you have a lot of resources coming from different sources depending on what you're using.

as for how one should credit creators i think that the answer lamely comes down to just being a 'best judgement thing'. its not productive and maybe not even possible to devise a blanket protocol for how people should be credited so the best that can be hoped for is that people are considerate and give proper weight to the attribution based on the contribution given. this is kind of shitty because i feel that this is in essence the core of the discussion but i dont have a better answer

But I'd work for free to see my name credited in a project I respected; I wouldn't work for free to see my name credited in a project I didn't respect or care about, nor would I work for free on someone else's project I respected/cared about if I wasn't going to at least get credit. So I refute some of your initial assumptions here.
Putting credits next to a scene of some kind is a sure fire way to prevent me from reading them.

I would say the best way to do it is to have the important names in-game(a short list), then put some kind of message saying that the full credits can be found in a text file included with the game.

If I'm reading credits, I hate them. If I made some art, I expect them.
author=Max McGee
But I'd work for free to see my name credited in a project I respected; I wouldn't work for free to see my name credited in a project I didn't respect or care about, nor would I work for free on someone else's project I respected/cared about if I wasn't going to at least get credit. So I refute some of your initial assumptions here.

but isnt that behavior itself based on an assumption (that having your name in the credits actually does anything for you) which--

author=Max McGee
Reading some of the responses here makes me regret helping people with their games in the past for credit

--was recently shaken

?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Max, I'm curious what you think you get out of being credited.
benos
My mind is full of fuck.
624
I rather just create a game introduction though events mostly out of nowhere. Besides, even if you don't put in credits, people are gonna find out you're using their resources. Or create a read_me file with every resource you used and credit said person. I think I'll just get into the story quickly, even without credits.

Well if you're creating a more atmospheric movie type game.

But it's pretty much your choice.
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
sixe: The second thing you quoted was meant to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

author=LockeZ
Max, I'm curious what you think you get out of being credited.

If you wouldn't prefer to be credited than not, then...I don't know. How to have this discussion. It hadn't occurred to me that there's anyone who wouldn't prefer being credited to not being credited.

***

Okay, non-RM example. Shadowrun is not just currently my favorite tabletop RPG and fictional universe ever, it has been since I was 10 years old. It's my primary fandom. Working on SR professionally and seeing my name on SR books is a huge dream come true. Not just because actually working on Shadowrun is fun--because honestly I was working on SR tons before I was officially hired by them, just preparing shit for my own campaign--and not because it's the best way to make the most money in the least time (it really really emphatically isn't). It's a big dream come true because I get to have my name associated with something I've thought was stupendously awesome since the dawn of time.

An RM example would be, I am happy to have my name on Linus, because Linus is an amazing game, and was before I came along.

If you really liked and respected Final Fantasy, you'd be happy to be credited as one of the guys doing stuff in an official capacity for Final Fantasy, and so on. Part of being a fan is that you'd be proud to be an author of something you're a fan of.

***

I don't know, I guess I don't understand why the people who think that being credited is worthless are working on amateur games at all. I mean, you could be better compensated doing something else, if compensation is all that matters to you. Isn't the reason you're making games in part because you want to make something awesome and being able to take credit for it? If not, you'd all be releasing your games anonymously. So why is taking credit for the work you did on someone else's game any different?

Or are you all "pureunspoiledjoyfags" that supposedly make games because it's fun and with absolutely no consideration of anything else. *eyeroll* I don't buy this and never will. Human beings don't work this way, and on some level, everyone desperately wants/craves recognition for their creativity and hard work.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Max McGee
I don't know, I guess I don't understand why the people who think that being credited is worthless are working on amateur games at all. I mean, you could be better compensated doing something else, if compensation is all that matters to you. Isn't the reason you're making games in part because you want to make something awesome and being able to take credit for it? If not, you'd all be releasing your games anonymously.


Okay, yeah, I definitely want to make something awesome. And taking credit for it is also good for me, in a different way; in the long term I need street cred so that I can move up in the world and work on better stuff.

However, having the credits be in the game - or even in a text file or on the website or anywhere else public - doesn't have anything to do with taking credit for it. I can put it on my resume without any of those things. The lead developer or publisher or whoever can provide a list of credits to anyone who requests one. Giving that list to people who didn't request it is what seems kinda pointless to me.
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
You mean you seriously don't want to know who made a game you play or a movie you watched or whatever?

I mean, I want to know...but my desire to know is inversely related to the number of people that made the thing. Like, if ten people made a game, I will happily read (and maybe even remember) their names, but if it's a game made by like 10,000 people (your Halos, your Modern Warfares, your Deus Exes and Skyrims) then while I will amicably stare at the credits, I'm not really paying attention or absorbing any of it. It's just too much. With that many people, I think the individual footprint of each one on the game is limited anyway.

But even with massive commercial productions and films I will sit through tons of credits to see who a familiar-sounding voice actor actually was, so I am glad the credits are there (saves me a trip to the internet).

But if we're talking about like...which five community members contributed to your game...that is something I actively do want to read.

Guess I'm in the minority though.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Thinking about it, I do care a little, but only about the lead director who's the brains behind it all, plus possibly the composer if it's really good music. And the fewer people were involved, the more I care who the lead mind is.

In the case of a movie I also care about some of the actors. I guess that kinda counts? I think almost everyone cares about movie stars, right?

Hmm. I can name three people who worked on the Final Fantasy series (two directors and one composer) and three people who worked on Chrono Trigger (one terrible dragonball artist and two composers), but to be honest I didn't learn any of those from the games themselves, I learned them from hearing people talking about them or from reading news stories. And those are literally the only six people I can name in the professional game design industry.

Generally speaking, the name "Nippon Ichi" or "Rockstar Games" or "Bethesda" is enough of a credit roll for me.
i agree with max, the entertainment industry is a pretty terrible place and if you ever plan to work in it or have a part in it a lot of blood is usually coughed up despite being paid. Would you want someone to see it after working overtime on the product you worked hard to push out? I generally read the credits to like studio ghibli films and pixar ones because I can really appreciate animation (that and i guess they actually make interesting credit sequences). Like idk, humans have pride after all.

When it comes to the amateur community, idk, usually it's just one guy and maybe his brother working on it. So there's not much of a credit to read other than NOBOU UEMATSOO - composer (GEE MAN WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH YOUR CAREER?) and the thousands of spriters resource contribution credits. I like just seeing "created by whoever." and can acknowledge that.
author=LockeZ
Thinking about it, I do care a little, but only about the lead director who's the brains behind it all, plus possibly the composer if it's really good music. And the fewer people were involved, the more I care who the lead mind is.

In the case of a movie I also care about some of the actors. I guess that kinda counts? I think almost everyone cares about movie stars, right?

Hmm. I can name three people who worked on the Final Fantasy series (two directors and one composer) and three people who worked on Chrono Trigger (one terrible dragonball artist and two composers), but to be honest I didn't learn any of those from the games themselves, I learned them from hearing people talking about them or from reading news stories. And those are literally the only six people I can name in the professional game design industry.

Generally speaking, the name "Nippon Ichi" or "Rockstar Games" or "Bethesda" is enough of a credit roll for me.

You've reminded me of a quote I read about Kenneth Branagh after he directed the movie Thor. Branagh was receiving praise from a critic who asked how he was able to put together such a good movie, to which Branagh replied something along the lines of, "read the hundred names at the end of the movie, that's how I did it." His point was, of course, that a big name director shouldn't take solo creative credit for a work, and that film credits are a way of showing the monumental effort that went into a project.

Film credits also serve a practical purpose with the general public; if a prospective employer just saw a movie with, say, fight choreography that he really liked, he will look to see who did the choreography in the credits, and might look up or contact said person. This is a far better way to find work than just sending resumes out to people in the hope that someone is interested.

In regards to other professions you mentioned earlier, you can actually see the credits for things like architects and whatnot if you know where to look. besides that though, creative work is harder to quantify than the work of other professions, and the effort demands and deserves individual recognition. For example, a plumber who fixes a pipe is following well tested instructions; he did not invent the method, he is just carrying out, so while he is credited and receives compensation for his work within his given field, he cannot take credit for creating anything new. If, however, this plumber was also a part-time physicist or artist, then he would indeed deserve credit for any new theories or artwork he created, and if he created a new method of solving plumbing problems, he would deserve credit for that too.

But if you really don't like to sit through credits, then don't. It's not rude to walk out of a theater when the credits start, and it's not rude to 'x' your game window either. Personally, I tend to enjoy credits in games, especially when I've just played through a really good RPG, as it gives me a chance to reflect on the story I just experienced. Seeing a long list of names enhances that feeling for me.
For example, take the ending credits to Xenogears, one of the best RPGs I've ever played:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c2KKPBii9o

If the credits were absent, not only would we have missed an awesome song, but the ending would have lost some of its artistic impact if the game had just immediately stopped and gone back to the title screen.

So, yeah, I say credits in entertainment mediums serve both a practical and artistic purpose.
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