POLYMORPHOUS PERVERSITY (18+ NWS)

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Protip: The politically correct are rarely hilarious. ;-)
(Edit: I would never use humor to outright hate on folks, I hope intention provides at least a bit of a distinction)
author=ElectricalKat
Stuff
I'm just going to say I know many a "blacks" who take absolutely no offense to the "n-word". In fact, they commonly refer to each other with the word. (Though, I feel it's in bad taste when I say it around them and they laugh because of how absurd it sounds coming from me.) Maybe it's just us, but maybe you picked the wrong analogy? It may be smart to take into consideration however that my friends could be called anything and they wouldn't mind as long as it was coming from me. Usually. They'll definitely let you know if they don't like what you said though.

I do want to put it out there that I completely agree with you just that sometimes there are exceptions dependent on the situation. Of course, though, that's with most anything.
CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
On sunny days, I go out walking
1142
author=Gourd_Clae
author=ElectricalKat
Stuff
I'm just going to say I know many a "blacks" who take absolutely no offense to the "n-word". In fact, they commonly refer to each other with the word. (Though, I feel it's in bad taste when I say it around them and they laugh because of how absurd it sounds coming from me.) Maybe it's just us, but maybe you picked the wrong analogy? It may be smart to take into consideration however that my friends could be called anything and they wouldn't mind as long as it was coming from me. Usually. They'll definitely let you know if they don't like what you said though.


There is a thing called reclaiming a word.

protip: the word "tranny" is as offensive to transsexuals as the n-word is to blacks. you may want to avoid using it.


But this analogy is still bad because the word nigger is way, way more offensive than the word tranny. Tranny is not really a good word to use, but it does not carry nearly the same connotations.

That said I think it's silly to focus on that aspect of such a fucking ridiculous game. Like, Nothing about this is very "accurate" to true life and i think there's even a cutscene where some kind of "happy rape" occurs?
Again, I've been too busy working on my own NaGaDeMo submission to take the time and try this out on my own, but from what I saw in the second video, I was a little surprised. The whole Polymorphous Perversity concept has to do with the way children start out able to derive pleasure from anything, without knowledge of social/religious enforced morals, etc...

The player appears to take the role of someone thrust into a new world, in essence, a "child." Okay, I get it so far.

BUT, the way that the transgendered characters seem to be treated indicates a bias within the game's world, if not within the developer, which sort of defeats the purpose. The "child" is learning a bit too quickly, it would seem. You are free to experiment and do anything, there is no distinction between you, your excretions, and even the beasts of the field - however, Transgendered people go over there.
author=Demicrusaius
Protip: The politically correct are rarely hilarious. ;-)
(Edit: I would never use humor to outright hate on folks, I hope intention provides at least a bit of a distinction)

Well, you could have all of the good intentions that you wish for, but intentions don't really absolve you of being...uh, not funny. I'm not railing against political incorrectness, but rather I am bringing a point against using it completely wrong.

I will use Mel Brooks' Blazing Saddles as an example: It is an insanely politically-incorrect film, but at the same time it is still very funny, even by today's standards! It uses the N-word as much as you would say "hello" (among other things), but it also lampshades itself, and it turns into a self-parody.

By comparison, what calunio is doing here is reiterating a stereotype that is almost - if not as old and overused - as "get back in the kitchen", without showing anything that could possibly redeem it other than an assumed veil of comedy.

author=Gourd_Clae
many a "blacks" who take absolutely no offense to the "n-word". In fact, they commonly refer to each other with the word ... my friends could be called anything and they wouldn't mind as long as it was coming from me.

That's probably because you are friends with them! And because you have "N-word privileges" as is said with them. If you had walked in front of a random stranger and you called them a nigger, then I think you would receive a pretty angry look in response. (if not you being decked in the face)

author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
But this analogy is still bad because the word nigger is way, way more offensive than the word tranny. Tranny is not really a good word to use, but it does not carry nearly the same connotations.

Um, correct me if I am wrong but ... did you just try to say that a word used to dehumanize a transgendered person is, in some way, "less offensive" than a word used to dehumanize a black person? That they are somehow not equal?

How about dehumanizing an Asian person? A Jewish person? A Muslim? Someone who is gay, lesbian, or bisexual? Would you like to grade these insults, because I don't know if you realize this, but you are basically saying that dehumanizing someone who is transgendered is not even close to being important as dehumanizing someone who is black.
Electrical Kat, you can't always tell if something is going to be funny until it's out there. So long as funny is the intent, which is admittedly difficult to gauge, you shouldn't crucify the comedian.
author=Jude
Electrical Kat, you can't always tell if something is going to be funny until it's out there. So long as funny is the intent, which is admittedly difficult to gauge, you shouldn't crucify the comedian.
I...don't understand what you are trying to say. Polymorphous Perversity IS out there, so are you saying that he should be excused anyway because he tried to make it comedic? It's been released, but we still cannot judge it?

Part of me wonders if everyone would say the same thing, if someone had created a musical comedy of a Nazi death camp. (and before anyone goes lolgodwin or that "this isn't the same", do bear in mind that i am trying to illustrate how something could be offensive and unfunny yet be..."intended") It is very possible to make a comedy of transgendered people, but this...is not exactly the right way to do it.

Also to everyone: please do not get me wrong and think that I am the language police, but execution does play a huge part into whether something works the way you intend it to be, versus how it really comes out as.

author=Demicrusaius
Protip: The politically correct are rarely hilarious.

I forgot to point this out in my earlier post, but I was talking about your use of that word here:

author=Demicrusaius
Tranny bashing is never ok, but they deserve to get made fun of just like everybody else.

Now, imagine how it would've come out like if you had said "faggot bashing" or "nigger bashing" instead. That is why I say that you shouldn't use it so casually in speech.
You make a reasonable point, I just don't think that tranny is nearly as negative inherently.
Now, I'm not defending the game because I never made it to the cave of trannies, but I laughed when I read it.
Nothing is sacred, I think, when it comes to comedy, but if something is too intense for you, just play another game. There are only like a million.
It's not like we're gonna go lynching after playing or watching something.
Actual opinions should never be formulated from any kind of media and probably don't even accurately reflect or express the true feelings of its creators.

author=Jude
Electrical Kat, you can't always tell if something is going to be funny until it's out there. So long as funny is the intent, which is admittedly difficult to gauge, you shouldn't crucify the comedian.

Also, this is very well worded. Maybe it would have been funnier/scarier twenty years ago? Maybe in fifty years that kind of statement will be illegal? Context is everything.
author=ElectricalKat
I...don't understand what you are trying to say. Polymorphous Perversity IS out there, so are you saying that he should be excused anyway because he tried to make it comedic? It's been released, but we still cannot judge it?

You can judge it as unfunny--which I'd agree with. However, if comedy is the intent than you can't judge it as insensitive or something that should be squashed. If you start attacking comedy then you create an environment where nobody is willing to risk being funny because the repercussions are much more far reaching than simply being unfunny. In other words, Blazing Saddles might've never been written if such a social climate existed.
author=Demicrusaius
You make a reasonable point, I just don't think that tranny is nearly as negative inherently.

I didn't want to bring it into this discussion, but that's probably because you have either a. have not experienced it yourself or b. seen others that you know and love being disparaged by it. Otherwise, I think you would believe this situation very differently.

It's a common word - along the likes of "shemale" and "he-she" - that is used to dehumanize a transsexual and try to invalidate their desire to live as their true gender. Just like how the word "nigger" is used to dehumanize a black person and try to invalidate their lives as free and equal beings. I can't see how one cannot be as great as the other, unless you are placing transgendered people below black people in a hierarchy, which in itself is pretty bad for obvious reasons.

author=Demicrusaius
Nothing is sacred, I think, when it comes to comedy, but if something is too intense for you, just play another game. There are only like a million.
It's not like we're gonna go lynching after playing or watching something.
Actual opinions should never be formulated from any kind of media and probably don't even accurately reflect or express the true feelings of its creators.

Again, I will mention that there is a great deal of misinformation on transgendered people out in the world. How do you think minorities felt back in the day when they were being portrayed all of the time in negative and insulting stereotypes, which were completely manufactured by those with privilege (and sometimes naivete)? It is exactly the same in this case, and if nothing is said or complained about, nothing will actually change for the better!

Honestly, something needs to be said in order for these kinds of mistakes to not happen so carelessly, like I believe calunio did. Silence does nothing for anyone who is involved, and change does not happen by itself.

author=Jude
You can judge it as unfunny--which I'd agree with. However, if comedy is the intent than you can't judge it as insensitive or something that should be squashed. If you start attacking comedy then you create an environment where nobody is willing to risk being funny because the repercussions are much more far reaching than simply being unfunny. In other words, Blazing Saddles might've never been written if such a social climate existed.

Okay, I do see your point. I didn't intend to attack the notion of politically-incorrect comedy in that way, but if my words came out like that I do apologize.

What I was trying to say, is that calunio grossly misrepresented transgendered people with his attempt at...whatever it is, and I believe that he should be called out on it. (and as a psychologist himself, he really should be better-informed; most transsexuals would not be this charitable)

I would expect nothing less from other people if someone had made a movie about black gangs pillaging a city dry while the good white folk come in to save the day, or if someone made a beat-em-up game where you fight gay people trying to rush and rape you.
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
I haven't played this game and can't really speak from experience, but I'm inclined to agree with Kat. You really do need to be careful in how you approach portraying trangendered people, as it is incredibly easy to accidentally be extremely offensive and insulting towards them, even if it wasn't your intention or without even realizing you're doing it. And I'm pretty sure nobody appreciates that.
benos
My mind is full of fuck.
624
lol exploded.
author=Deckiller
A sequel perhaps?
Unplanned Parenthood!
Decky
I'm a dog pirate
19645
author=Solitayre
I haven't played this game and can't really speak from experience, but I'm inclined to agree with Kat. You really do need to be careful in how you approach portraying trangendered people, as it is incredibly easy to accidentally be extremely offensive and insulting towards them, even if it wasn't your intention or without even realizing you're doing it. And I'm pretty sure nobody appreciates that.

I completely understand where you're coming from, by the way. But where does the slippery slope end? People make fun of certain..."categories" that I fall into, and I'm not offended unless they act on those flaws IRL (e.g. when the stereotypes become discrimination and/or bullying). For instance, if I took offense to every time someone assumed I was lazy at work because I played video games, I would have had an anxiety-induced heart attack by now. Someone mentioned it as an "order of magnitude" thing, which I guess makes sense: some stereotypes are more severe than others. LGBT people do suffer from more severe discrimination than most others but the line is blurred when it comes to comedy. To me, it's an issue of equity: someone will always be offended by something, so where is the line drawn?

The only way to avoid offending people in a game like this is to not make it at all.

I think such humor would be alright in a pure comedy game, as long as the stereotypes are humorous, sarcastic, and geared toward a comical look at sexuality generalizations in all varieties. Some kind of disclaimer would be wise. However, this game is also supposed to have a bit of psychoanalysis attached to it. That's where the issue is: I would've thought that the creator would avoid stereotyping based on sexual labels - and would try to think from the perspective of people who are gay, transgendered, obese, etc. Maybe a contrast of perception vs. reality, or stereotypes vs. truth, would justify a segment like the "tranny cave" if it were followed up with something more realistic. Perhaps a main character who only has "vanilla sex" and starts off believing in all these stereotypes, but then realizes that they are the norm by any means.

Maybe Calunio will draw a finer line between psychoanalysis and comedy next time.

(In short: if this was a comedy game that bashed all sexual stereotypes, the "tranny" segment would've been less of an issue. However, in a game that supposedly has a more serious flavor rooted in psychology, it comes across as a cheap jab and possibly offensive. Oh well.)

I'm not trying to offend anyone with my points. I'm firmly in the middle here, looking at it from as many perspectives as I can.
CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
On sunny days, I go out walking
1142
author=ElectricalKat
How about dehumanizing an Asian person? A Jewish person? A Muslim? Someone who is gay, lesbian, or bisexual? Would you like to grade these insults, because I don't know if you realize this, but you are basically saying that dehumanizing someone who is transgendered is not even close to being important as dehumanizing someone who is black.

It really does not carry as negative of a connotation as you think it does. It's usually just fetishizing. Compare a google search of "tranny and nigger ." I can pretty much guarantee you that the latter will carry much more violent uses of the word. It is also used in a hateful way, but not 100 percent of the time, which makes the analogy bad.

Secondly, yes. Tranny is literally a less harmful word because it does not have nearly the same historical significance as the word nigger. It is not "worse" to dehumanize a black person, but the words simply do not have the same level of significance and probably never will.

Again, we are talking about a game that features this cutscene.


It is absurd it is to say "hey, you weren't sensitive enough to transgendered people" is in a game that has THIS in it? Like, the juxtaposition here is blowing my mind. Calunio made a game before where you just ran a brothel of super heroines. And after that he had a game where you trap people in a dungeon and torture and rape them. Like, I appreciate your goal here, but I'm not sure that this particular instance is where you want to fight this battle.

author=kentona
author=Deckiller
A sequel perhaps?
Unplanned Parenthood!


I laughed so hard at this
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
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author=ElectricalKat
What I was trying to say, is that calunio grossly misrepresented transgendered people with his attempt at...whatever it is, and I believe that he should be called out on it.

You can't do comedy without misrepresenting things. That's sort of all comedy is. A "joke" is, by definition, untrue. You're not trying to be honest and accurate. You're just, uh... joking.

Well, and there's also observational humor. But. I wouldn't really call that comedy.

And I mean, he misrepresents a lot of other groups too. Fat people, skinny people, men, women, nudists, sex addicts, virgins, prostitutes, druggies, superheroes, volleyball players.
author=Deckiller
I completely understand where you're coming from, by the way. But where does the slippery slope end? People make fun of certain..."categories" that I fall into, and I'm not offended unless they act on those flaws IRL (e.g. when the stereotypes become discrimination and/or bullying). For instance, if I took offense to every time someone assumed I was lazy at work because I played video games, I would have had an anxiety-induced heart attack by now.


I don't know of these "categories" that you fit into (honestly, I've come to know a lot of people who fall into a lot of categories, so I'm the least likely person to be a judge of what you are interested in unless it is harmful to others), but I could address your video game comment.

Unfortunately, I don't think that it is a valid comparison. It's mostly because video games and gamers have been well-established as a group, and common knowledge about them (and the MANY kinds of gamers) has been established for a long time in society. By comparison, there is not a lot of media that accurately represents transgenders beyond stereotypes and caricatures; in fact, I don't think that a single game exists yet that has actually shown the struggles transgendered people need to overcome.

As for the slippery slope...

author=Deckiller
Someone mentioned it as an "order of magnitude" thing, which I guess makes sense: some stereotypes are more severe than others. LGBT people do suffer from more severe discrimination than most others but the line is blurred when it comes to comedy. To me, it's an issue of equity: someone will always be offended by something, so where is the line drawn?

The only way to avoid offending people in a game like this is to not make it at all.


I didn't deny the possibility of making a transgendered comedy; it is entirely possible, but it is one of those subjects that you NEED to handle with care, otherwise you would end up rehashing the same old tropes that have been constantly used in the past to deny transgenders their rights, or in the absolute worst cases justify their murders.

Maybe in several decades, these tropes will become so obviously ridiculous to everyone that we would wonder why humans actually thought of it that way. (remember the 19th century and how blacks were portrayed as subhuman, or closer to apes by general culture?) However, now is not that time - we as a whole society need to get past the "acceptance" phase before we can use these things so casually. We need much more work that shows transgenders in a positive light, because the ones that do exist out there are being drowned out by a sea of crap.

author=Deckiller
However, this game is also supposed to have a bit of psychoanalysis attached to it. That's where the issue is: I would've thought that the creator would avoid stereotyping based on sexual labels - and would try to think from the perspective of people who are gay, transgendered, obese, etc. Maybe a contrast of perception vs. reality, or stereotypes vs. truth, would justify a segment like the "tranny cave" if it were followed up with something more realistic. Perhaps a main character who only has "vanilla sex" and starts off believing in all these stereotypes, but then realizes that they are the norm by any means.


It probably wouldn't have been as offensive if he had lampshaded himself, or shown transsexuals as something more than just "traps" (as you said earlier - i think your reference was pretty apt). But yes, this is certainly part of the problem.

author=Deckiller
I'm not trying to offend anyone with my points. I'm firmly in the middle here, looking at it from as many perspectives as I can.


That's okay! There is absolutely nothing wrong with learning and keeping an open mind. And I think that you're doing much better than this next guy who is following up...

author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
It really does not carry as negative of a connotation as you think it does. It's usually just fetishizing. Compare a google search of "tranny and nigger ." I can pretty much guarantee you that the latter will carry much more violent uses of the word. It is also used in a hateful way, but not 100 percent of the time, which makes the analogy bad.


lol, where to begin with this... Do you realize what you are typing in your own post? When you fetishize someone, you imply objectifying, which is something that even feminism has been trying to get rid of for so many years from women. Believe me, it is NOT as fun as you may think it is.

And, please, don't lecture me about it not having violent uses, especially when - with all of the hyperbole taken out - the murder rate of transsexuals is 16 times higher than the national average, and many are still driven to suicide by bullying and other causes. You saying otherwise only makes you look like a total tool.

author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
Secondly, yes. Tranny is literally a less harmful word because it does not have nearly the same historical significance as the word nigger. It is not "worse" to dehumanize a black person, but the words simply do not have the same level of significance and probably never will.


wow, are you being serious? Who actually CARES about how "historically significant" a pejorative word is? Just because nigger has an allegedly "longer" history than tranny (which in itself is very debatable, because trangendered people throughout time have been referred to by many other pejoratives as well) does not somehow make it much worse.

A word that is used to dehumanize someone is...a word that is used to dehumanize someone. You are still belittling a person for who they are; the only difference between these words is what you reference about that person! You come off as less defending your position, and more justifying yourself to use it as freely as you want.

author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
Again, we are talking about a game that features this cutscene.



you do know that scene has a lot of problems in itself too, which is a topic for another discussion. i'm just going to say that it is far more creepy than "deep" or "funny" or whatever you would like to think about it.

author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
It is absurd it is to say "hey, you weren't sensitive enough to transgendered people" is in a game that has THIS in it? Like, the juxtaposition here is blowing my mind. Calunio made a game before where you just ran a brothel of super heroines. And after that he had a game where you trap people in a dungeon and torture and rape them. Like, I appreciate your goal here, but I'm not sure that this particular instance is where you want to fight this battle.


I've never played or seen Marvel Brothel, and Beautiful Escape: Dungeoneer from what I played of it seemed to acknowledge its own creepiness. Honestly, your referencing those two games is a complete strawman because they are not at all related to Polymorphous Perversity, besides them being made by the same author.

You should read what I wrote to Deckiller above. Now, you know those stereotypes that I've been railing at all this time? They are still very widespread, and they are actually thought to be true by a HUGE amount of people! This is a great reason why I say that continuing to use them is damaging, because you are perpetuating a bad image of transgendered people that we are trying to eradicate.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Kat
Maybe in several decades, these tropes will become so obviously ridiculous to everyone that we would wonder why humans actually thought of it that way. (remember the 19th century and how blacks were portrayed as subhuman, or closer to apes by general culture?) However, now is not that time - we as a whole society need to get past the "acceptance" phase before we can use these things so casually. We need much more work that shows transgenders in a positive light, because the ones that do exist out there are being drowned out by a sea of crap.

This is bullshit. Casually portraying the viewpoint as ridiculous is the first and last step. Lighten up and get over it. It's never wrong to not make a big deal about stuff; that's called tolerance. Your dislike of comedy runs way deeper than Calunio's dislike of trannies, so you're the real problem here. You're the only one creating hatred.
author=LockeZ
This is bullshit. Casually portraying the viewpoint as ridiculous is the first and last step. Lighten up and get over it. It's never wrong to not make a big deal about stuff; that's called tolerance. Your dislike of comedy runs way deeper than Calunio's dislike of trannies, so you're the real problem here. You're the only one creating hatred.


You fail at logic. Go home and be a family man.