POLYMORPHOUS PERVERSITY (18+ NWS)

Posts

Hey! You can be a family man and still use logic!
author=kentona
Hey! You can be a family man and still use logic!

I never said you couldn't; I was just telling him his last resort.
author=LockeZ
You can't do comedy without misrepresenting things. That's sort of all comedy is. A "joke" is, by definition, untrue. You're not trying to be honest and accurate. You're just, uh... joking.

Well, and there's also observational humor. But. I wouldn't really call that comedy.

And I mean, he misrepresents a lot of other groups too. Fat people, skinny people, men, women, nudists, sex addicts, virgins, prostitutes, druggies, superheroes, volleyball players.


heh you don't really understand, do you. it's very hard to misrepresent something when your "misrepresentation" is still thought to be what is real by so many people. but i answered this in detail in my post below yours.

author=LockeZ
This is bullshit. Casually portraying the viewpoint as ridiculous is the first and last step. Lighten up and get over it. It's never wrong to not make a big deal about stuff; that's called tolerance. Your dislike of comedy runs way deeper than Calunio's dislike of trannies, so you're the real problem here. You're the only one creating hatred.


So, basically, you are telling me that transgendered people should just sit down and shut up at something that is seriously offensive, and all transgenders should be grateful that they are being included at all? Do I really need to elaborate to you on how dumb this really is?

Oh woow, I dislike so-called "comedy" that is transphobic (whether intentional or not), so I obviously hate ALL comedy! And I'm being "intolerant"? You sound like one of those "men's rights" guys, or a white person afraid that the government is giving too much more attention to minorities than you.

I'd like you to keep raging on, because I think it's pretty funny. You're basically proving my own point.
I think that if you are looking for an impartial and dispassionate representation of transgendered sexuality in an indie RPG maker game, you are looking in the wrong place.
author=kentona
I think that if you are looking for an impartial and dispassionate representation of transgendered sexuality in an indie RPG maker game, you are looking in the wrong place.


I'm pretty surprised to hear this from you, kenton. Should I guess that the next time someone makes a racist, sexist, homophobic, or such game and uploads it onto RMN, then it would be perfectly fine by you and nothing should be expected out of it? No discussion should be made, and everyone should stand idly by and watch things unfold, because after all it is only an "indie RPG maker" scene.

I appreciate that this is a community of new people and amateurs, but I would've liked to think that we would hold ourselves to a much higher social standard. Maybe I've been wrong this whole time?
Polymorphous Perversity is not on RMN and isn't allowed to be uploaded on RMN.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=ElectricalKat
author=LockeZ
This is bullshit. Casually portraying the viewpoint as ridiculous is the first and last step. Lighten up and get over it. It's never wrong to not make a big deal about stuff; that's called tolerance. Your dislike of comedy runs way deeper than Calunio's dislike of trannies, so you're the real problem here. You're the only one creating hatred.
So, basically, you are telling me that transgendered people should just sit down and shut up at something that is seriously offensive, and all transgenders should be grateful that they are being included at all? Do I really need to elaborate to you on how dumb this really is?

I didn't say they should be grateful; I said they should get over it. But yes, if you're offended by something, you should sit down and shut up. That's what you're telling homophobes to do, right? They're offended by transgendered people, and you're telling them to sit down and shut up. It goes both ways. They're offended by you and you're offended by them. You think your rights are more important because you think you're the one who's correct, but they think the same thing. From my perspective as a third party, there's no difference. So anything you tell them to do, you have to be willing to do also. That includes tolerance. If you want them to be tolerant of your views, you have to be tolerant of their views.
author=kentona
Polymorphous Perversity is not on RMN and isn't allowed to be uploaded on RMN.


That's fair enough! I'll watch out in the future, as I mistakenly associated what you said to be representative of the entire site, so I'm sorry for it.

Still, though, I'm kind of surprised that you would hold this viewpoint to indie RPG maker games, as if there is nothing better that you would expect from them like any other medium. This attack on me (by other community members, not you) even bringing out the game's offensiveness, or even arguing the importance of "tranny", just makes me think about that woman who is making the female gamer documentary and what she received in response to it.

If I can't expect something that would break today's mold, then why should I have any hope for something new?
I haven't played the game or read the comments here, but I am now quite curious as to what is so offensive that has caused you to have such a bee in your bonnet!
You know, I'm all for civil rights. Truly. But you keep whining about misrepresentation of trans people in media and I have to laugh at that.
Who is represented well in media? Umm... No one.
And if you are gathering real opinions from TV and video games, then you should probably move to a big city or not share/act on those opinions.
Trannies don't need you to defend them, everyone knows they carry bricks in their purses.

author=ElectricalKat
I didn't want to bring it into this discussion, but that's probably because you have not seen others that you know and love being disparaged by it. Otherwise, I think you would believe this situation very differently.


We don't need to play count the trannies, but I know several trans people from both sides, transitioning into something new, and "going back" into what they were. Hell, I'd even say I know a lot of trans people (and they say tranny most of all), but that doesn't change anything.
It shouldn't make me more or less qualified to make an observation.
As usual, someone too emotionally involved with a subject ruins the fun for everybody else... It's just a work of fiction, for Christ sake!

I understand and commend the whole 'dispelling misinformation' thing, though, and I'm sure any author that respects its work would value criticism of that nature in order to improve its craft. But "calling out" on an author because you fancy feel offended over something it's plain pretentious. And trying to pin on that person any kind of responsibility for the murders of other people is beyond surreal... This discussion started out all right, but it has devolved in such a guiltrip that I don't even know which part is more pathetic.

author=Demicrusaius
Actual opinions should never be formulated from any kind of media and probably don't even accurately reflect or express the true feelings of its creators.

Well, I'd argue that some kind of media are more legitimate ways to formulate opinions from than others, but yeah, pretty much this. People should learn to think this way and put the blame for all the evils of the world where it really belongs. (and work on adequate cures)

LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=ElectricalKat
I'm pretty surprised to hear this from you, kenton. Should I guess that the next time someone makes a racist, sexist, homophobic, or such game and uploads it onto RMN, then it would be perfectly fine by you and nothing should be expected out of it? No discussion should be made, and everyone should stand idly by and watch things unfold, because after all it is only an "indie RPG maker" scene.


I think the game is pretty messed up in a lot of ways, but I'll fight to my last breath for his right to make it. Disallowing a game because it's pornographic or because it's low quality is one thing; censoring it because you don't want the creator's message to be spread is absolutely beyond horrible. You can definitely openly discuss the problems with the game, and you can hate on the game, but the idea that it should be banned or systematically driven away by the staff for its message is utterly deplorable. If you're a transsexual then I'm sure you know exactly how it feels to have that sort of thing happen to you, so I'm astonished that it sounds like you want to do this to someone else.
CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
On sunny days, I go out walking
1142
author=ElectricalKat


You need to calm down and stop railing against some strawman. I'm extremely active in the feminist community and nothing you are saying is new to me. Nowhere did I say that tranny was not a dehumanizing term. Not even once. In fact, I specifically said that it was. I said that it did not have nearly the same history and is thus not as bad. And yes, that is important. The history associated with a word is a huge part of what gives it power.

And, please, don't lecture me about it not having violent uses, especially when - with all of the hyperbole taken out - the murder rate of transsexuals is 16 times higher than the national average, and many are still driven to suicide by bullying and other causes. You saying otherwise only makes you look like a total tool.


I didn't say anything about the murder statistics of transgendered people? At all? Ever? Because that is sort of unrelated to this discussion.

wow, are you being serious? Who actually CARES about how "historically significant" a pejorative word is? Just because nigger has an allegedly "longer" history than tranny (which in itself is very debatable, because trangendered people throughout time have been referred to by many other pejoratives as well) does not somehow make it much worse.


Okay. Which do you think is worse. Nigger or Cracker. But this entire argument is a red herring because:

you do know that scene has a lot of problems in itself too, which is a topic for another discussion. i'm just going to say that it is far more creepy than "deep" or "funny" or whatever you would like to think about it.


I thought my post pretty obviously implied that it was horrible.

Which is my entire point. This whole game is an extremely crude and juvenile ...thing. It does not subvert any cultural norms or prod at any dark areas of my brain, or look fun to play, or whatever it was supposed to do. It's awful in its paintings of everything and is made by a guy who has made a A. Brothel Game and B. Torture Game (This is why I brought them up) and now this game with its weird rape scene and whatever else so my point is that you have exactly 0 chance of getting anywhere with this argument that Calunio should be more sensitive to transgendered people when he has shown that he has zero interest in approaching the subject of sex or women with any kind of sensitivity whatsoever.
author=LockeZ
I didn't say they should be grateful; I said they should get over it. But yes, if you're offended by something, you should sit down and shut up. That's what you're telling homophobes to do, right? They're offended by transgendered people, and you're telling them to sit down and shut up. It goes both ways. They're offended by you and you're offended by them. You think your rights are more important because you think you're the one who's correct, but they think the same thing. From my perspective as a third party, there's no difference. So anything you tell them to do, you have to be willing to do also. That includes tolerance. If you want them to be tolerant of your views, you have to be tolerant of their views.


"I'm sorry that you're offended, but I have a right to make as much hateful and derogatory speech as I want against you and you're being hateful to me by saying that I'm wrong." I'll be sure to let Martin Luther King and other activists from the Civil Rights, Feminist, LGBT, et al movements know that what they've been doing is totally intolerant by your standards (which must apply to everyone i guess). Trying to stick up for a group is bad, you see!

Really, you are being so hypocritical by saying that I'm being intolerant of a group that is being intolerant itself. Why don't we make more movies like Birth of a Nation, then? That would probably go very well!

author=kentona
I haven't played the game or read the comments here, but I am now quite curious as to what is so offensive that has caused you to have such a bee in your bonnet!


you really should read them, because i would like to think that i already answered this in my posts.

author=Demicrusaius
Who is represented well in media? Umm... No one.
And if you are gathering real opinions from TV and video games, then you should probably move to a big city or not share/act on those opinions.
Trannies don't need you to defend them, everyone knows they carry bricks in their purses.

We don't need to play count the trannies, but I know several trans people from both sides, transitioning into something new, and "going back" into what they were. Hell, I'd even say I know a lot of trans people (and they say tranny most of all), but that doesn't change anything.
It shouldn't make me more or less qualified to make an observation.


Actually, it does, because you don't suffer from the same bigotry as transgenders do. It was only very recently that crimes targeting transgendered people have been written as a "hate crime" into US law; what does that say about the state of TG rights now? Let's not forget that, in some countries and states, you are barred from changing your legal gender, and living as the opposite sex can get you into prison!

I don't know about transgender people that you know, but those I know don't really appreciate random strangers throwing it around carelessly like that. And of course transgenders say it to each other - it's the TG community's version of reclaiming it.

author=alterego
As usual, someone too emotionally involved with a subject ruins the fun for everybody else... It's just a work of fiction, for Christ sake!


lol okay, i'll leave you guys alone with your party. please don't be surprised though if more things like this offend more people and draw them away from you.

author=alterego
I understand and commend the whole 'dispelling misinformation' thing, though, and I'm sure any author that respects its work would value criticism of that nature in order to improve its craft. But "calling out" on an author because you fancy feel offended over something it's plain pretentious. And trying to pin on that person any kind of responsibility for the murders of other people is beyond surreal... This discussion started out all right, but it has devolved in such a guiltrip that I don't even know which part is more pathetic.


What the hell...? I'm not directly pinning calunio on causing murders at all. I thought I made it pretty clear that this is a widespread phenomenon that should be worked on, and more people perpetuating it would only make things worse...you saying that I should be ashamed of accusing him of leading to a transgendered person's death is such an exaggeration of what I'm saying, that I would almost think you were intentionally being dishonest.

author=Demicrusaius
Well, I'd argue that some kind of media are more legitimate ways to formulate opinions from than others, but yeah, pretty much this. People should learn to think this way and put the blame for all the evils of the world where it really belongs. (and work on adequate cures)


I dunno, it seems like a whole lot of everyone here are either completely misreading what I am trying to say (and I'm trying hard to believe this), or they are intentionally not reading and they are arguing points that I have already addressed. It should be pretty f'ing obvious by now that I am not anti-politically-incorrect comedy, and I'm not trying to encroach on other people's "rights" (lol the right to hate others, thank you for this lockez).

author=LockeZ
]I think the game is pretty messed up in a lot of ways, but I'll fight to my last breath for his right to make it. Disallowing a game because it's pornographic or because it's low quality is one thing; censoring it because you don't want the creator's message to be spread is absolutely beyond horrible. You can definitely openly discuss the problems with the game, and you can hate on the game, but the idea that it should be banned or systematically driven away by the staff for its message is utterly deplorable. If you're a transsexual then I'm sure you know exactly how it feels to have that sort of thing happen to you, so I'm astonished that it sounds like you want to do this to someone else.


I don't know what's worse, that you preach tolerance of intolerance from others, or that you try to relate me possibly being transsexual receiving hate from others to me asking that people stop with things that are so old, overused, and utterly wrong. You go ahead, though, and have fun!
author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
You need to calm down and stop railing against some strawman. I'm extremely active in the feminist community and nothing you are saying is new to me. Nowhere did I say that tranny was not a dehumanizing term. Not even once. In fact, I specifically said that it was. I said that it did not have nearly the same history and is thus not as bad. And yes, that is important. The history associated with a word is a huge part of what gives it power.


So, transgendered people will have to wait several more decades for their derogatory insults to be as high in importance as others? When it should be pretty blatantly obvious that to a transgendered person, it is JUST as insulting as any other word?

I should also note that the feminist movement and transsexuals have not had the highest amount of cooperation with each other. For example, please look up the Michigan "Womyn's" Festival. Again, though, this is something else.

author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
I didn't say anything about the murder statistics of transgendered people? At all? Ever? Because that is sort of unrelated to this discussion.


Oh please. You claimed that "tranny" cannot have nearly the same amount of violent connotations as "nigger", so don't try and backpedal from this.

author=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
Okay. Which do you think is worse. Nigger or Cracker. But this entire argument is a red herring because:

you do know that scene has a lot of problems in itself too, which is a topic for another discussion. i'm just going to say that it is far more creepy than "deep" or "funny" or whatever you would like to think about it.


I thought my post pretty obviously implied that it was horrible.

Which is my entire point. This whole game is an extremely crude and juvenile ...thing. It does not subvert any cultural norms or prod at any dark areas of my brain, or look fun to play, or whatever it was supposed to do. It's awful in its paintings of everything and is made by a guy who has made a A. Brothel Game and B. Torture Game (This is why I brought them up) and now this game with its weird rape scene and whatever else so my point is that you have exactly 0 chance of getting anywhere with this argument that Calunio should be more sensitive to transgendered people when he has shown that he has zero interest in approaching the subject of sex or women with any kind of sensitivity whatsoever.


And so because it's..."supposed" to be crude, juvenile, or what have you, and it is executed so wrong, we should still excuse everything inside it? I don't even know what to think of this game now; some people say that it's a psychological analysis, while other people say that it's a juvenile comedy.

I've already gone through this, so I'm not going to repeat myself.
CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
On sunny days, I go out walking
1142
Actually what I said was "I can pretty much guarantee you that the latter will carry much more violent uses of the word. It is also used in a hateful way, but not 100 percent of the time, which makes the analogy bad."

they're just no on the same level I'm sorry that no combination of words can explain this.

So, transgendered people will have to wait several more decades for their derogatory insults to be as high in importance as others? When it should be pretty blatantly obvious that to a transgendered person, it is JUST as insulting as any other word?


Actually they will have to be enslaved first. It has nothing to do with "amount of time."

You shouldn't excuse anything about this game. That's the opposite of what I said. My point was that you are attacking a very small part of this game when, in reality, nearly all of it is really bad.
Anyway, I don't have the time or energy to respond to several people at once, so I'm going to bow out of this topic. I also don't have the energy to discuss this well with people who have admitted that they didn't read the entire topic.

If anyone has something new and is willing to have some kind of a discussion, I would love to talk to you in PMs about it. Until then, have fun!
"The right to swing your fist ends where the other person's nose begins." Freedom of Speech and Freedom from having Freedom of Speech turned against you are two contrary ideas.

As a musician/author/artist, I would make the argument that all "art" has a right to exist, while acknowledging that "art" is an incredibly subjective term. I would not want my work to be censored, so it would be hypocritical of me to advocate the censoring of pieces I do not agree with. On paper, that is a fine stance, in practicality, not so much.

An external example: The "artist" who had a dog starve to death as an art installation. As a person who has always counted dogs as members of the family, that idea sickens me. I would not go to see it, I would not support the museum/gallery/whatever that hosted the installation, nor would I feel compelled to cross their threshold for any other exhibit.

The only way I would defend such an installation as art would be if I could stage my own installation piece, namely the beating to death of the "artist" responsible for the dog's slow agonizing demise. The way laws are structured, that is not currently an option.

After that moment of venting, I have to go ahead and say that, unfortunately, Johnny Dog Snuff does have a right to make his art.

The line can't be set at "Censoring what I like is a crime, censoring what I don't like is AWESOME."

This is not an attack. I'm not defending the portrayal of transgendered characters. I cannot control the rest of the world, unfortunately. All I can control are my reactions to it, theoretically.

I did play a little bit of the game last night, out of simple curiosity. It is not a very good game. Most of the actions the player is allowed/encouraged to take appear to have no effect. From a gameplay standpoint, one would hope that the "stick it in anything that moves, and even things that are rooted to the ground" mechanic would help you in some way.

As far as I can tell, it doesn't. The game's steadily increasing Horny Meter doesn't seem to respond to any situation outside of combat (this statement may be in error, it is possible that it is a bug, that the acts DO lower the meter, but not fast enough to keep up with its steady increase... or I just didn't notice during my short test play).

Pointless, repetitive gameplay. Maybe that is the high idea behind the game, that sex, without the associated biological imperative is a pointless, repetitive act? Does claiming recreational sex is pointless, outside of personal gratification, also constitute a jab at same sex couples, or any permutation thereof? I don't know.

There is a post on the host site about how the game has a diagnosis mode. The example the developer uses is the Homosexuality diagnosis, which tests for how often the player engages in optional male-male couplings. Calunio goes on to explain the metrics he uses, and his data gathering, making it sound very efficient and clinical, but it comes off as prurient at the same time with the example that is repeated touted during the dissertation is the Homosexuality score.

It has been said that all art is self portraiture, so something could be said about the dichotomy between an educated scientist and his flip side, the adolescent giggling in the bedroom as he explores his body.

Perhaps it is the Freudian nature of the game that is to blame? I doubt we would see a cave of Transsexuals in a Jungian game.

In fact, the game could be an attempt at integrating said sates (namely the educated scientist and the giggling adolescent) by treating a very juvenile approach to the subject with a very clinical data metric?
author=kentona
I haven't played the game or read the comments here, but I am now quite curious as to what is so offensive that has caused you to have such a bee in your bonnet!
you really should read them, because i would like to think that i already answered this in my posts.
Okay, the gist I got was that transgenders got a poor representation in an RPG game and that you are outraged that people aren't as outraged as you are and that 'tranny' is as bad a term as 'nigger' (even though it isn't) and then a bunch of reductio ad absurdum plus the damning of RMN to the refuse bin of the internet for discussing the game I guess? But the sense I am getting is that no one is defending the accuracy of the portrayal of transexuals in the game, but are taking exception to the way you are wigging out about it and are telling you to chill out a bit.

Sage advice, really. No dogs are being murdered here.
I'd like to empathize with kat, but this game has a guy/tree love.

  • too stupid to intelligent
  • too hilariously bad to be offensive
  • brazil

any doubts about calunio not being a troll went away with this one...