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GIMME BOSS GIMMICKS
Posts
yamata no orochi
184
yamata no orochi
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CloseBOSS GIMMICK:
You are fighting a forest dragon. The dragon is guarding a treasure, which you must obtain. It sleeps for most of the time. It is resistant to all elements except for one; weapons hurt it, but it has an enormous amount of HP, and if the battle goes on for three or four turns, your entire party becomes numbed from exhaustion and begins to lose HP and MP at a fast rate, with halved stats at that. Thankfully, you are able to run away from the dragon if you're about to die.
The solution lies in the village, where many of the villagers say they know which element is strongest against the dragon. All of them say that the dragon has been known to spread false rumors around the woods, so they could be wrong. They're right--all the rumors in the village are false. The dragon is weak against the one element they don't mention. Go back to the dragon, and use an attack of that element. It does an enormous amount of damage! Use the spell on it one or two more times in a row.
Unfortunately, that wakes the dragon up and sends it into a rage, preventing you from escaping. Now you have to beat a raging dragon with weapons and a single spell-type. Fun!
You are fighting a forest dragon. The dragon is guarding a treasure, which you must obtain. It sleeps for most of the time. It is resistant to all elements except for one; weapons hurt it, but it has an enormous amount of HP, and if the battle goes on for three or four turns, your entire party becomes numbed from exhaustion and begins to lose HP and MP at a fast rate, with halved stats at that. Thankfully, you are able to run away from the dragon if you're about to die.
The solution lies in the village, where many of the villagers say they know which element is strongest against the dragon. All of them say that the dragon has been known to spread false rumors around the woods, so they could be wrong. They're right--all the rumors in the village are false. The dragon is weak against the one element they don't mention. Go back to the dragon, and use an attack of that element. It does an enormous amount of damage! Use the spell on it one or two more times in a row.
Unfortunately, that wakes the dragon up and sends it into a rage, preventing you from escaping. Now you have to beat a raging dragon with weapons and a single spell-type. Fun!
Shadowtext
120
author=yamata no orochi link=topic=1142.msg17252#msg17252 date=1211320775That seems like an awful lot of work to go through to figure out a really simple and obvious weakness. What's stopping you from just casting magic on it until you find its weakness? The HP/MP degeneration thing just means you'll have to escape and try again a few times.
BOSS GIMMICK:
You are fighting a forest dragon. The dragon is guarding a treasure, which you must obtain. It sleeps for most of the time. It is resistant to all elements except for one; weapons hurt it, but it has an enormous amount of HP, and if the battle goes on for three or four turns, your entire party becomes numbed from exhaustion and begins to lose HP and MP at a fast rate, with halved stats at that. Thankfully, you are able to run away from the dragon if you're about to die.
The solution lies in the village, where many of the villagers say they know which element is strongest against the dragon. All of them say that the dragon has been known to spread false rumors around the woods, so they could be wrong. They're right--all the rumors in the village are false. The dragon is weak against the one element they don't mention. Go back to the dragon, and use an attack of that element. It does an enormous amount of damage! Use the spell on it one or two more times in a row.
Unfortunately, that wakes the dragon up and sends it into a rage, preventing you from escaping. Now you have to beat a raging dragon with weapons and a single spell-type. Fun!
I don't really like the idea of that sort of gimmick even if there was a way, though. You interrupt the flow of the game big time by making the player backtrack a lot and go through a town segment before the boss for the current dungeon can be defeated. It smacks of the same sort of design that leads to fetch quests.
demondestiny
979
Another way is to give the boss millions and millions of HP. Generally the fight is gonna take a while and frustrate the player as well. I have seen heaps of games that do this.
I like bosses that have very little health that is clearly displayed but you can only deal dammage to it through a certain element but once you hit it with that element it changes it's element so you have to figure out it's weakness again!
Another good one are ones with high evasion an magical resistance so that you can't hit it without boosting your accuracy ten-fold!
Another one is where you have to kill a series of bosses in a particular order. Similar to the aliens on the Ragnarok during the space adventure of FF8!
The best by far though are bosses that have bonds with party members and how they can affect characters. Such as FFX when Yuna wouldn't attack Seymore. Or how the enemy themself may target one allie particular character.
Basically anything that requires strategy to I like!
Another good one are ones with high evasion an magical resistance so that you can't hit it without boosting your accuracy ten-fold!
Another one is where you have to kill a series of bosses in a particular order. Similar to the aliens on the Ragnarok during the space adventure of FF8!
The best by far though are bosses that have bonds with party members and how they can affect characters. Such as FFX when Yuna wouldn't attack Seymore. Or how the enemy themself may target one allie particular character.
Basically anything that requires strategy to I like!
I've always like mimic or shadowclone bosses - duplicates of your hero character(s) that are usually really tough to beat.
republic
20
My favorite boss gimmick was the T-Rex fight from Chrono Trigger. The boss did a special that took 5 turns to finish. You got to do a shit ton damage during those turns and live through the attack. I loved it so much I emulated it in my old old games.
maladroithim
1495
IF YOU TEACH ERAVE HOW TO CATCH HIS OWN DAMN FISH . . .
I think the most important things to consider in a boss fight are:
1. The boss' personality. You want to incorporate his behavior into his personality. It's important that the boss has a distinctive personality that governs his actions. This is what makes the boss memorable.
2. The game's mechanics up to this point. Boss fights should push the game's mechanics. There are probably things in your game that you don't use in most battles - poisoning spells, elemental abilities, et al. Consider the boundaries that you have established thus far in the game, and use your boss fights as an opportunity to explore them.
3. Progression. Every good boss battle has a progression that functions like a complete story in and of itself. You have the phases of storytelling: exposition, rising action, climax, falling action. The boss should start out by showing you what he's all about, and flex more and more of his muscles as the fight goes on. Near the end, there should be an exciting moment where the boss does something you have not expected - a super attack, transforming into another form, etc. The player should defeat the boss shortly afterwards; the falling action is the period between the climax and the end where the player finishes him off.
Let's consider the Tyranno fight in Chrono Trigger as a great example.
1. The boss' personality is, obviously, that of a dinosaur with a wizard on his shoulder. The dinosaur tends to behave slowly, charging up for several turns and hitting hard. Either that, or he goes into a frenzy and hits everyone (he can't aim of course). The wizard on his shoulder provides support abilities, and guides the dinosaur to make more intelligent actions. The wizard casts spells to damage the party or heal the dinosaur.
2. Chrono Trigger hadn't had a truly epic, balls-out battle until this point in the game. If you haven't overlevelled and this is your first time through, this will be a half-hour battle. This truly tests your ability to hit with your strong abilities while healing and buffing your party and keeping them healthy. Furthermore, this is the point where you start to unlock the higher-level abilities and group techs, which are the secret to dealing enough damage to actually beat this guy. In this case, the unexplored mechanics are those of the core battle system itself.
3. The dinosaur in this battle charges his attacks for a whopping five rounds. The tension is mounting during this period, because he will hit you hard when he is done charging. This creates a rise and fall in action that feels almost like a series of episodes. Greater still, as you continue to fight, the enemy uses his powerful attacks more and more often. The climax is when you manage to kill the wizard - once you've done that, it's short work to finish off the dinosaur. This is the falling action between climax and victory.
If you consider these three things you should be fine. Don't limit your game design to a thought like "which gimmick does this situation have"? Think about your boss fights as complete scenarios, and design them as such. You have a specific character personality, unexplored or unproven game mechanics, and the natural progression of a scenario to consider. By designing your boss fights with these instructions in mind, you're well on your way to success.
God I should turn this into an article.
I think the most important things to consider in a boss fight are:
1. The boss' personality. You want to incorporate his behavior into his personality. It's important that the boss has a distinctive personality that governs his actions. This is what makes the boss memorable.
2. The game's mechanics up to this point. Boss fights should push the game's mechanics. There are probably things in your game that you don't use in most battles - poisoning spells, elemental abilities, et al. Consider the boundaries that you have established thus far in the game, and use your boss fights as an opportunity to explore them.
3. Progression. Every good boss battle has a progression that functions like a complete story in and of itself. You have the phases of storytelling: exposition, rising action, climax, falling action. The boss should start out by showing you what he's all about, and flex more and more of his muscles as the fight goes on. Near the end, there should be an exciting moment where the boss does something you have not expected - a super attack, transforming into another form, etc. The player should defeat the boss shortly afterwards; the falling action is the period between the climax and the end where the player finishes him off.
Let's consider the Tyranno fight in Chrono Trigger as a great example.
1. The boss' personality is, obviously, that of a dinosaur with a wizard on his shoulder. The dinosaur tends to behave slowly, charging up for several turns and hitting hard. Either that, or he goes into a frenzy and hits everyone (he can't aim of course). The wizard on his shoulder provides support abilities, and guides the dinosaur to make more intelligent actions. The wizard casts spells to damage the party or heal the dinosaur.
2. Chrono Trigger hadn't had a truly epic, balls-out battle until this point in the game. If you haven't overlevelled and this is your first time through, this will be a half-hour battle. This truly tests your ability to hit with your strong abilities while healing and buffing your party and keeping them healthy. Furthermore, this is the point where you start to unlock the higher-level abilities and group techs, which are the secret to dealing enough damage to actually beat this guy. In this case, the unexplored mechanics are those of the core battle system itself.
3. The dinosaur in this battle charges his attacks for a whopping five rounds. The tension is mounting during this period, because he will hit you hard when he is done charging. This creates a rise and fall in action that feels almost like a series of episodes. Greater still, as you continue to fight, the enemy uses his powerful attacks more and more often. The climax is when you manage to kill the wizard - once you've done that, it's short work to finish off the dinosaur. This is the falling action between climax and victory.
If you consider these three things you should be fine. Don't limit your game design to a thought like "which gimmick does this situation have"? Think about your boss fights as complete scenarios, and design them as such. You have a specific character personality, unexplored or unproven game mechanics, and the natural progression of a scenario to consider. By designing your boss fights with these instructions in mind, you're well on your way to success.
God I should turn this into an article.
Shadowtext
120
Speaking of bosses with multiple "targets" to it, like the Black Tyrano fight (I don't immediately recall if that was one of the battles that I'm about to refer to, though...), I'm suddenly realizing that they also show a neat little thing I like about Chrono Trigger that I only occasionally see in other games.
Most specifically, I mean the bosses (and a few regular enemies) where there are multiple targets or foes, who smack you down hard for using attacks that hit all enemies. I can't remember all of the ones that did this, but I know Son of Sun did, and I'm pretty sure Dalton's twin golems did, and I think Giga Giygas did as well. Often when hit with more than one opponent, the obvious tactic is to hit everybody with one of the target-all attacks, like the Level 2 magic. But these monsters have pretty strong counterattacks when you use this tactic, and hammer you for it. They don't hit so hard that you lose the battle for attacking them (since that would be punishing the player for doing something that he's been rewarding for doing the whole game to that point, which is Evil Bastard Game Design), but enough so that it's shown to be a pretty bad tactic for this particular fight.
These same bosses are also ones where you have to destroy all of them at once, or else you have to destroy one or two to make the barrier go down on the "core" baddie.
These fights always mixed things up a bit, because generally your strongest specials are going to be the ones that hit everyone. So instead of spamming Ice 2's and Luminaires, you're going to end up using a couple of the double or triple techniques that pack the power of the multi-hitters into single-enemy attacks, like fan-favorite X Strike and personal-favorite Arc Impulse.
There are a handful of times that other games do this, but I seem to recall it happening more often in Chrono Trigger. I hadn't really thought about it before, but there's a lot of creative use of enemy teamwork in Chrono Trigger that really mixes things up a bit.
Most specifically, I mean the bosses (and a few regular enemies) where there are multiple targets or foes, who smack you down hard for using attacks that hit all enemies. I can't remember all of the ones that did this, but I know Son of Sun did, and I'm pretty sure Dalton's twin golems did, and I think Giga Giygas did as well. Often when hit with more than one opponent, the obvious tactic is to hit everybody with one of the target-all attacks, like the Level 2 magic. But these monsters have pretty strong counterattacks when you use this tactic, and hammer you for it. They don't hit so hard that you lose the battle for attacking them (since that would be punishing the player for doing something that he's been rewarding for doing the whole game to that point, which is Evil Bastard Game Design), but enough so that it's shown to be a pretty bad tactic for this particular fight.
These same bosses are also ones where you have to destroy all of them at once, or else you have to destroy one or two to make the barrier go down on the "core" baddie.
These fights always mixed things up a bit, because generally your strongest specials are going to be the ones that hit everyone. So instead of spamming Ice 2's and Luminaires, you're going to end up using a couple of the double or triple techniques that pack the power of the multi-hitters into single-enemy attacks, like fan-favorite X Strike and personal-favorite Arc Impulse.
There are a handful of times that other games do this, but I seem to recall it happening more often in Chrono Trigger. I hadn't really thought about it before, but there's a lot of creative use of enemy teamwork in Chrono Trigger that really mixes things up a bit.
None of the enemies really had anything bad for you for when you hit all of them at once. All the bad counter attacks were individual counter attacks that were provoked all at once. Son of Sun had five counter attacks because five out of the six enemies counter attack when you hit them. Likewise, the Golem Twins did nothing special when you hit both of the at once. However they will attack when they change their attack element, which they do when they get hit by an attack whose element is different than the one they're attacking with. The problem is that hitting both of them at once can provoke two nasty counter attacks.
Chrono Trigger does have some awesome bosses though. Blatantly stealing from that game by itself would improve the usual RPG boss fight by a fair amount.
Chrono Trigger does have some awesome bosses though. Blatantly stealing from that game by itself would improve the usual RPG boss fight by a fair amount.
Azela and the Dark Tyrano were easy compared to Magus (and for me, Nizbel 2. Sonofabitch was a wall when I was a kid) </nerdrage>
S. F. LaValle
1069
Below are some ideas I have considered for the very purpose of boss strategies.
I have decided that the bosses I want to design are puzzles within themselves. Obviously not complicated or luck-based puzzles that occur in the dungeon leading up the bosses, but those puzzles can be used to hint at the boss strategy. For example, colored doors that must be opened in a certain order, corresponding to the correct order of elements to nail the boss with.
Brick has an interesting theory about bosses that I agree with; that is, if you can't possibly beat a boss on your first attempt, then the boss is not designed well. That doesn't mean a boss needs to be easy, and it doesn't mean that you have to get lucky to find the right strategy first. Maybe establish the strategy before-hand; it's not far-fetched to say that the henchmen in a dungeon require strategies that correlate with the boss. Give clever players that much opportunity to determine the strategy. If certain gear is required or recommended to turn a boss fight from impossible to challenging, make sure that ample clues are provided.
Like him mentioned above, the boss's personality can be considered to draw ideas from. Also mentioned above, use the resources that you have given the player. Keep a list of different types of damaging abilities and debuffs you've implemented, and work them in. Combine this with the above, if an adventurous player decides to try poison on enemies in a dungeon, and it works very well, they'll consider using it on the dungeon's boss, or in other parts of the game. Let the player know that these resources can be valuable, and they will try using them.
You all can probably point out (Chrono Trigger being no exception) that MANY games have a boss or end boss that mimics bosses fought earlier in the game. It's one of the more obvious strategies, but it's also a fundamental of strategy; obtain knowledge, then use it for your benefit. This can be applied on so many levels, and we all use it without thinking about it (for example, use fire on an ice monster). Be consistent with established strategies, and give a hint that you're changing things up on the player. Punish properly; enough to let the player know that what they are doing isn't going to work, but not enough to discourage them from experimenting some more.
Also, I like to keep in mind that battles are fought in different ways: offensively, defensively, with emphasis on speed, or on endurance, or maybe even not with force at all. Finding the right way to deal damage to the enemy seems obvious. However, I think it's also important to find the right way to mitigate incoming damage. Implement skills that affect incoming damage types, and implement ways they can be used. Combining these two elements in a boss battle I think can present a good degree of challenge and strategy that the player feels good about when they find something that works.
None of these things are guidelines, they are options; you can use none, one, or all of them. The point is, by thinking about different aspects of gameplay, even as you might design puzzles in dungeons differently, you can come up with lots of different gimmicks that add challenge to your game.
I have decided that the bosses I want to design are puzzles within themselves. Obviously not complicated or luck-based puzzles that occur in the dungeon leading up the bosses, but those puzzles can be used to hint at the boss strategy. For example, colored doors that must be opened in a certain order, corresponding to the correct order of elements to nail the boss with.
Brick has an interesting theory about bosses that I agree with; that is, if you can't possibly beat a boss on your first attempt, then the boss is not designed well. That doesn't mean a boss needs to be easy, and it doesn't mean that you have to get lucky to find the right strategy first. Maybe establish the strategy before-hand; it's not far-fetched to say that the henchmen in a dungeon require strategies that correlate with the boss. Give clever players that much opportunity to determine the strategy. If certain gear is required or recommended to turn a boss fight from impossible to challenging, make sure that ample clues are provided.
Like him mentioned above, the boss's personality can be considered to draw ideas from. Also mentioned above, use the resources that you have given the player. Keep a list of different types of damaging abilities and debuffs you've implemented, and work them in. Combine this with the above, if an adventurous player decides to try poison on enemies in a dungeon, and it works very well, they'll consider using it on the dungeon's boss, or in other parts of the game. Let the player know that these resources can be valuable, and they will try using them.
You all can probably point out (Chrono Trigger being no exception) that MANY games have a boss or end boss that mimics bosses fought earlier in the game. It's one of the more obvious strategies, but it's also a fundamental of strategy; obtain knowledge, then use it for your benefit. This can be applied on so many levels, and we all use it without thinking about it (for example, use fire on an ice monster). Be consistent with established strategies, and give a hint that you're changing things up on the player. Punish properly; enough to let the player know that what they are doing isn't going to work, but not enough to discourage them from experimenting some more.
Also, I like to keep in mind that battles are fought in different ways: offensively, defensively, with emphasis on speed, or on endurance, or maybe even not with force at all. Finding the right way to deal damage to the enemy seems obvious. However, I think it's also important to find the right way to mitigate incoming damage. Implement skills that affect incoming damage types, and implement ways they can be used. Combining these two elements in a boss battle I think can present a good degree of challenge and strategy that the player feels good about when they find something that works.
None of these things are guidelines, they are options; you can use none, one, or all of them. The point is, by thinking about different aspects of gameplay, even as you might design puzzles in dungeons differently, you can come up with lots of different gimmicks that add challenge to your game.
maladroithim
1495
author=kentona link=topic=1142.msg17759#msg17759 date=1211816927
Excellent discussion guys! One of you should make an article about this and submit it to the site.
I don't know it sounds like a FUNdamental of RPGs to me.
demondestiny
979
author=kentona link=topic=1142.msg17759#msg17759 date=1211816927
Excellent discussion guys! One of you should make an article about this and submit it to the site.
I think everyones leaning towards you to do this. :D
