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COMMERCIAL GAMS - A PHILOSOPHICAL & PRACTICALITY DEBATE
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kentona
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There has been a lot of talk about commercial games by indie devs wanting to have their games here on RMN.
I'd like to have a public round table on this topic.
I have created a channel on our IRC network called #rmn_commercial on irc.dynastynet.net; come on in and make your case and opinion known!
The stance of RMN has been "NO COMMERCIAL GAMS" since before I was around, and I've never had an issue with it or ever question it, really. When I joined the staff and again when took over I just continued on with the status quo.
I have no strong philosophical objects to commercial games - I am more ambivalent than anything else, and if the people want it I'll allow them. I DON'T want this to be a general commercial site though! I really don't. I don't want pro devs parachuting in with their gams. I want to stress the indie. (That being said, I honestly don't think that any even moderate-sized indie devs will pay any mind to RMN, so I feel this is a bit of a non-issue honestly).
My reservations are from a practicality standpoint - I don't have the staffing, resources, tools, legal knowhow nor server reliability to run a site that support commercial ventures. I mean, can you imagine if a game relies on RMN's hosting for their SALE OF THEIR GAME? yikes. And what are the legal ramifications?? I have no idea about any of this and it makes me a little anxious.
I have been getting a handful of PMs on the subject recently, as well as the forum thread posted recently, not to mention Ghost's and TFT's ventures into KS, and Sailarius's games and harmonic's games. The time is right (overdue really) for us to revisit this. Even RMW has commercial games.
Chatting with my buddy Touchfuzzy from RMW, he said that there really hasn't been any drama regarding the existence of commercial games on the site. I didn't press him for details, though. With regards to Gamejolt, they currently do NOT allow commercial games, however CROS is actively working on a "marketplace" update to the site that would support commercial game ventures. So they are heading down that path. I don't know the status of commercial gam for other sites likes RRR or RMRK etc...
I would also like to reveal that there was an original intent to support commercial works here on RMN - there are code snippets and even database fields leftover from WIP's initial work into supporting commercial gameprofiles. (In fact, CSS customization was supposed to be a premium feature for these paid-for gameprofiles, but that was eventually rolled out for free.) I am not sure why the "premium" or commercial gam support was dropped - my guess is that time & interest waned and eventually it just fell off the radar (and RMN was going to be shut down anyway, remember that?)
When the site was created, there was still a pretty well defined distinction between HOBBYIST GAM and COMMERCIAL GAM, but that line has blurred (a blurred line geddit?) since then. RMN pretty much missed the boat when XP and VX became the defacto engines, and I didn't want to have that happen again (and so I threw my support behind Ace wholeheartedly (but then RMW the official site opened and syphoned off my potential growth damn them!)).
Anywho...
My current stance is: leaning towards YES for commercial game profiles WITH THE CAVEAT OF downloads posted to RMN must be free to play.
This is contrary to most of my staff and confidantes, so I have so far refrained from making my position official.
Additional item to be added in the TERMS OF SERVICE:
REVIEWS, COMMENTS, COMMUNICATIONS, AND OTHER CONTENT
Visitors of RMN may post reviews, comments, media, and other content; send private communications; and submit suggestions, ideas, comments, questions, or other information, so long as the content is not illegal, grossly obscene, threatening, defamatory, invasive of privacy, infringing of intellectual property rights, or otherwise injurious to third parties or objectionable and does not consist of or contain software viruses, political campaigning, off-topic commercial solicitation, chain letters, mass mailings, or any form of "spam." You may not use a false e-mail address, impersonate any person or entity, or otherwise mislead as to the origin of a communication or other content. RMN reserves the right (but not the obligation) to remove or edit such content, but does not review all posted content prior to it being posted publicly.
If you do post media content or submit media material (such as but not limited to images, screenshots, concept art, videos, articles and music), and unless we indicate otherwise, you grant RMN a nonexclusive, royalty-free, perpetual, and irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, and display such content throughout the rpgmaker.net site in any media, strictly for in-site promotional purposes. You grant RMN the right to use the name that you submit in connection with such content, if they choose. You represent and warrant that you own or otherwise control all of the rights to the content that you post and submit; that the content is accurate; that use of the content you supply does not violate this policy and will not cause injury to any person or entity; and that you will indemnify RMN for all claims resulting from content you supply. RMN has the right but not the obligation to monitor and edit or remove any activity or content.
RMN takes no responsibility and assumes no liability for any content posted by you or any third party.
also, the change to the submission rules I posted earlier
The Game section of RMN is designed to release and advertise your projects. Game projects should be of your own creation and should show some sort of general progress. The Game section is limited to games that are produced by indie developers. Any playable game you submit to RMN must be free to play.
RMN does not have the staffing, resources, tools, legal expertise, nor server reliability to support commercial ventures.
If you intend to sell your game commercially, you must flag the game as a Commercial game in the gameprofile. Soliciting donations for your work is also acceptable (including the use of and advertisement of your Kickstarter). Your commercial gameprofile is eligible to be up on RMN during the development of your game. However, any game downloads submitted to RMN must be free to play.
RMN is not responsible for any perceived lost sales of your game.
RMN does not have the staffing, resources, tools, legal expertise, nor server reliability to support commercial ventures.
If you intend to sell your game commercially, you must flag the game as a Commercial game in the gameprofile. Soliciting donations for your work is also acceptable (including the use of and advertisement of your Kickstarter). Your commercial gameprofile is eligible to be up on RMN during the development of your game. However, any game downloads submitted to RMN must be free to play.
RMN is not responsible for any perceived lost sales of your game.
Some of the benefits I see are a greater inclusivity of RMN with the larger RM world - keeping the community together, and together we are stronger ('TIL ALL ARE ONE!). I have strong conviction that if all of the disparate RM sites were to work together, we would all mutually benefit. Allow ambitious commercial game developers to share game progress as it is developed is beneficial for them, and the knowledge gleaned from these discussions can be benefitial to anyone following the discussion. Hopefully, there may be an increase in quality of games overall (working from the assumption that people endevouring to publish a commercial work would ensure that their work is of a higher standard), but perhaps more importantly, there may be a perception change with regards to the quality of games on RMN. With that, we could all benefit. Lastly, we could have increased traffic to RMN.
On the flipside, some of the drawbacks I see would be the chance of liability for RMN for somehow being responsible for some commercial game lost sales or somesuch, even with the new TERMS OF SERVICE item above. I am not a lawyer (but my dad is!) so I don't know much about it (but at least I have access to free legal advice). I also don't want to alienate hobbyists - I mean, I am one, so... but you know how perception clouds everything.
Largely, though, I feel that RMN wouldn't really be all that different if commercial games were allowed. There won't be that many at all, and we all know how infrequently ANY game gets completed (commercial or otherwise), so number of completed commercial games here with a gameprofile is going to be pretty miniscule in practice. RMN is hardly the best place to look for BUYERS of your game, and most developers recognize that. I imagine that most developers wouldn't be looking to RMN for MAD BANK but rather for GAM DEV FEEDBACK. And drama is drama, regardless of the commercial nature of the game, and a lot of drama has more to do with the people involved rather than the game itself. This is all just my opinion, mind you.
Keep in mind that the intent for RMN was to also support commericial games some time down the line - it was just never implemented. Also keep in mind that the site is still being run by a hobbyist and volunteers. For me, a game is a game, and if that game has a download on RMN I should be able to download and play it, regardless of if you have a "full game" being sold elsewhere on the interwebs.
I know that a lot of you have voiced your opinions already in other threads, podcasts and comments on podcasts, but if you want to reiterate them here in this thread or the IRC channel, I would like to hear it.
UPRC
5516
My general stance is no because I mostly appreciate the more laid back approach that comes with designing games which cost nothing for players to experience and enjoy. I honestly don't even know why a lot of people working on RPG Maker games want to charge money for their games. I don't mean to sound discouraging here, but I wouldn't pay for almost any RPG Maker game. I've seen none that are commercial which I'd pay for. They all look totally underwhelming and don't offer anything I'd get for free from many other RPG Maker games. I mean I get WHY people want to sell their games, but a lot of people just don't have the experience, skill or talent to make their games worth purchasing.
There are also many more expectations with pay games. If I hear that a freeware game isn't that great, I may still try it out anyway because I'm not really losing out by trying it. Now if RMN had pay games on it and I heard that one wasn't that good, you can be rest assured that my money wouldn't go anywhere near it because I probably wouldn't want to take a chance on it. I'm okay playing Big Rigs and Superman 64 for free and I'll laugh about them, but I'd be pretty pissed off if I paid for them. Because of this, I'd be horribly against pay games being on RMN unless there was some kind of very strict quality control system in place because, seriously, what would be stopping any random joe from throwing their game up on RMN and asking for cash in return for downloads?
I'm not picking on jomarcenter here and I'm not trying to be a bully (I wish him the best and hope he becomes a decent game maker in time), but anyone could throw games up like Future Helper that cost money to play. They could be aware of their games quality and purposely disguise their games to not look awful, a feat that can be accomplishing in under ten minutes by anyone. I know that anyone who would have to approve games would be on the look out for bad games, but surely the process of approving pay to play/commercial games would require some kind of test play in order for the staff of RMN to guarantee it is a quality game worth spending money on? And if there was a huge rush of games being submitted by hopefuls who all think their games are the best creations in RPG Maker history, just how long would it take to sort the good from the bad? Exactly what rules would be put in place that govern which pay to play games could make it onto RMN? There would have to be quality control, no doubt. I would just be very worried that any over-confident buffoon could say "pay me five bucks to play my game!" and throw their game up on RMN.
If these games ever do become allowed on RMN, there's the whole issue of what the games are using as resources. Who is to say that somewhere in Random Pay Game #1783, which would appear to be RTP or 100% custom, there could be ripped music tracks or sound effects from some pretty popular games out there. Unless games that would be up for approval would be play tested 100% by RMN staff, a lot of copyrighted/ripped/etc. material could easily slip through the cracks. We know that large developers don't care a terrible amount about our pathetic little freeware games using ripped graphics because we're largely underground and have no impact on the industry, but an actual pay to play indie game using stolen material would be a different story I would imagine. Depending on how butthurt developers/individuals could get over their stuff being stolen, I could see kentona getting a few headaches.
This whole ordeal would probably start a huge shift towards original graphics almost being mandatory in the minds of many. I mean, who would play a game using RTP and/or rips from famous video games over another that has 100% original material? Obviously the pay to play games would strive to have all original material, and this would put a lot of unfair pressure on the people posting their games that don't cost anything. They could easily be overlooked because the main character is RTP Alex or because they have a town that looks suspiciously similar to Narshe. Maybe I am thinking that pay to play games on RMN would be more of a game changer for the free to play crowd than it would be in reality, but there would definitely be some kind of shift in the community. The problem with this is that we're not all artists, we're not all musicians, and we're not all made of money (so some of us can't afford commissioned material). It would put these users at an unfair advantage but, without actually seeing pay to play games on RMN, I don't think I (or any of us) can say just how big or small of an impact it would have.
I don't think including these games on RMN would cause any drama or ill feelings amongst users in the community, but it could have a negative impact on both types of games. The pay games? Well, people would want bang for their buck. People would have to be very inventive all across the board with their pay to play games. To those who would be able to forge awesome stories with great features from scripting as well as impressive graphics/music, my hat would be off to them... but just how many games would end up on RMN with asking prices that wouldn't justify their purchase? The free to play games could hurt for the reasons I listed up above. Ripped material in freeware games generally isn't encouraged these days, but it is still accepted because a lot of people just don't have access to the skills or money required to have original material.
Anyway, I'm talking in circles and may have strayed off topic here and there, but that's how I feel in a (long) nut shell.
There are also many more expectations with pay games. If I hear that a freeware game isn't that great, I may still try it out anyway because I'm not really losing out by trying it. Now if RMN had pay games on it and I heard that one wasn't that good, you can be rest assured that my money wouldn't go anywhere near it because I probably wouldn't want to take a chance on it. I'm okay playing Big Rigs and Superman 64 for free and I'll laugh about them, but I'd be pretty pissed off if I paid for them. Because of this, I'd be horribly against pay games being on RMN unless there was some kind of very strict quality control system in place because, seriously, what would be stopping any random joe from throwing their game up on RMN and asking for cash in return for downloads?
I'm not picking on jomarcenter here and I'm not trying to be a bully (I wish him the best and hope he becomes a decent game maker in time), but anyone could throw games up like Future Helper that cost money to play. They could be aware of their games quality and purposely disguise their games to not look awful, a feat that can be accomplishing in under ten minutes by anyone. I know that anyone who would have to approve games would be on the look out for bad games, but surely the process of approving pay to play/commercial games would require some kind of test play in order for the staff of RMN to guarantee it is a quality game worth spending money on? And if there was a huge rush of games being submitted by hopefuls who all think their games are the best creations in RPG Maker history, just how long would it take to sort the good from the bad? Exactly what rules would be put in place that govern which pay to play games could make it onto RMN? There would have to be quality control, no doubt. I would just be very worried that any over-confident buffoon could say "pay me five bucks to play my game!" and throw their game up on RMN.
If these games ever do become allowed on RMN, there's the whole issue of what the games are using as resources. Who is to say that somewhere in Random Pay Game #1783, which would appear to be RTP or 100% custom, there could be ripped music tracks or sound effects from some pretty popular games out there. Unless games that would be up for approval would be play tested 100% by RMN staff, a lot of copyrighted/ripped/etc. material could easily slip through the cracks. We know that large developers don't care a terrible amount about our pathetic little freeware games using ripped graphics because we're largely underground and have no impact on the industry, but an actual pay to play indie game using stolen material would be a different story I would imagine. Depending on how butthurt developers/individuals could get over their stuff being stolen, I could see kentona getting a few headaches.
This whole ordeal would probably start a huge shift towards original graphics almost being mandatory in the minds of many. I mean, who would play a game using RTP and/or rips from famous video games over another that has 100% original material? Obviously the pay to play games would strive to have all original material, and this would put a lot of unfair pressure on the people posting their games that don't cost anything. They could easily be overlooked because the main character is RTP Alex or because they have a town that looks suspiciously similar to Narshe. Maybe I am thinking that pay to play games on RMN would be more of a game changer for the free to play crowd than it would be in reality, but there would definitely be some kind of shift in the community. The problem with this is that we're not all artists, we're not all musicians, and we're not all made of money (so some of us can't afford commissioned material). It would put these users at an unfair advantage but, without actually seeing pay to play games on RMN, I don't think I (or any of us) can say just how big or small of an impact it would have.
I don't think including these games on RMN would cause any drama or ill feelings amongst users in the community, but it could have a negative impact on both types of games. The pay games? Well, people would want bang for their buck. People would have to be very inventive all across the board with their pay to play games. To those who would be able to forge awesome stories with great features from scripting as well as impressive graphics/music, my hat would be off to them... but just how many games would end up on RMN with asking prices that wouldn't justify their purchase? The free to play games could hurt for the reasons I listed up above. Ripped material in freeware games generally isn't encouraged these days, but it is still accepted because a lot of people just don't have access to the skills or money required to have original material.
Anyway, I'm talking in circles and may have strayed off topic here and there, but that's how I feel in a (long) nut shell.
Just to point out the caveat - any game download on RMN has to be free to play. Be it a demo, a prototype, or a nerfed-in-some-way full game, it has to be free.
I don't have the infrastructure, server reliability, staff, time, or inclination to host the commercial game itself and have RMN become a marketplace for commercial games. There won't be a "BUY NOW" button or SHOPPING CART on RMN. At most there will be a link in the gameprofile description to that game's official site to buy the game.
I don't have the infrastructure, server reliability, staff, time, or inclination to host the commercial game itself and have RMN become a marketplace for commercial games. There won't be a "BUY NOW" button or SHOPPING CART on RMN. At most there will be a link in the gameprofile description to that game's official site to buy the game.
jackalotrun
3397
If I find even one "BUY NOW" button on RMN I will go insane....... well, more insane...
i'll be talking about this in a couple days, but i want to say that rmn is a very small platform(not dissing). i do not think it would ultimately change anything. rmn is weird about trivial changes, but like i said, i don't think this will effect many people.
i want to share some interesting statistics(later) for people that might be useful if they want to actually take a step further in game design.
but yeah, i think it would be good if you do this that the staff at rmn or whatever, establish gameplay, demo, video or whatever before they're allowed to post a commercialized project or wip. i'm seeing too many people committing scams and fraud and it's really disgusting.
that would be my biggest concern is to not let people scam your community. that should be a priority. or at least do everything you can to weed out people who just want to manipulate the community for profit.
if you do this, that is something you really need to look into. the last thing you want are people in your community running these bunk games and having others think it's real. and yeah, ultimately it destroys the perception of what people think outside the community. that's bad.
speaking from someone who is trying to get a game commercialized, if you did this or not i don't think it would effect me because like i said, it's a platform. it doesn't really change much.
i want to share some interesting statistics(later) for people that might be useful if they want to actually take a step further in game design.
but yeah, i think it would be good if you do this that the staff at rmn or whatever, establish gameplay, demo, video or whatever before they're allowed to post a commercialized project or wip. i'm seeing too many people committing scams and fraud and it's really disgusting.
that would be my biggest concern is to not let people scam your community. that should be a priority. or at least do everything you can to weed out people who just want to manipulate the community for profit.
if you do this, that is something you really need to look into. the last thing you want are people in your community running these bunk games and having others think it's real. and yeah, ultimately it destroys the perception of what people think outside the community. that's bad.
speaking from someone who is trying to get a game commercialized, if you did this or not i don't think it would effect me because like i said, it's a platform. it doesn't really change much.
With the system you outlined in place, I'd say yea. I know the majority of this community is hobbyist so someone like me is out of place, but I do make money off of game-dev sometimes, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't want to make more. I hope that most people don't see a commercial option and think, "Oh, I should charge money for my game!" because realistically it's a very difficult process and it may change a person's approach to gamedev. Still, I don't think this would result in an over-influx of new games. There are already a lot of demo-only/hiatus projects.
I treat RM as a great source of communication - to talk about game design, to test and judge each other work and learn from one another, to motivate one another - and as long as that remains, I personally will enjoy coming to the site :)
A couple of questions:
1) Are there any rules against commercial products now? Ex. is a game project allowed to be posted demo-only, with a link to the full / paid version?
2) This is specific to me and Love Has Eight Legs but if someone gets their game sponsored (and relevant ad/sponsor logo added) but remains free, would that be acceptable?
I know I'll personally use the site with commercial stuff or not, but if I could provide free partial versions of commercial games in the future in order to receive RMNer feedback on them, it'd be really great!
I treat RM as a great source of communication - to talk about game design, to test and judge each other work and learn from one another, to motivate one another - and as long as that remains, I personally will enjoy coming to the site :)
A couple of questions:
1) Are there any rules against commercial products now? Ex. is a game project allowed to be posted demo-only, with a link to the full / paid version?
2) This is specific to me and Love Has Eight Legs but if someone gets their game sponsored (and relevant ad/sponsor logo added) but remains free, would that be acceptable?
I know I'll personally use the site with commercial stuff or not, but if I could provide free partial versions of commercial games in the future in order to receive RMNer feedback on them, it'd be really great!
rmn IS weird about trivial changes.
I am weird about trivial changes.
FEAR CHANBGE
anywho...
I would hope to apply a firmer standard for games flagged as commercial works. But I haven't put that into words or rules at this time. I haven't thought about how to go about that.
To answer the questions
1) YES. it is now "NO COMMERCIAL GAMS. PERIOD." (I will promote commercial works of current members though, and have, but they don't have profiles here. usually just forum posts and banners)
2) if the game is free, that's fine with me
I am weird about trivial changes.
FEAR CHANBGE
anywho...
I would hope to apply a firmer standard for games flagged as commercial works. But I haven't put that into words or rules at this time. I haven't thought about how to go about that.
To answer the questions
1) YES. it is now "NO COMMERCIAL GAMS. PERIOD." (I will promote commercial works of current members though, and have, but they don't have profiles here. usually just forum posts and banners)
2) if the game is free, that's fine with me
A priori, I don't see what would be the problem with rmn being a workshop for free games made by hobbyist and commercial indie games SOLD ELSEWHERE, but thinking about it, UNLESS a commercial indie game is in itself and its making radically different from a hobbyist's game.
UPRC
5516
I wouldn't have much of a problem with demo/trial versions being on RMN, because that at least still keeps the site as a casual hobbyist site. I would never like to see smaller free games competing with games made by people with greater resources. If kentona says he would take steps to avoid games being sold on RMN, then I probably wouldn't mind too much.
Also if my wording is iffy right or, it's because I am typing while having a totally unrelated conversation with someone on the phone (so my concentration is about as good as the attention span of a cat in a toy box).
Also if my wording is iffy right or, it's because I am typing while having a totally unrelated conversation with someone on the phone (so my concentration is about as good as the attention span of a cat in a toy box).
Sana
678
RMN being flooded in with commercial games? Heresy I say! Lol, jk though, I'm gonna go ahead and say Nay, but like UPRC said, having the demo versions on here wouldn't be bad. After people are done with those, and want to buy that game, they could go on to say Amaranthia and pick up the full version.
Irili
3198
So long as a trial or demo was available for free then that would be cool with me. I don't like the idea of a bunch of commercial games on the site though. This is kind a hobbyist hangout you know? And there's always the RPGMakerWeb for commercial games. It's "OFFICIAL" too.
author=TFT
but yeah, i think it would be good if you do this that the staff at rmn or whatever, establish gameplay, demo, video or whatever before they're allowed to post a commercialized project or wip. i'm seeing too many people committing scams and fraud and it's really disgusting.
that would be my biggest concern is to not let people scam your community. that should be a priority. or at least do everything you can to weed out people who just want to manipulate the community for profit.
if you do this, that is something you really need to look into. the last thing you want are people in your community running these bunk games and having others think it's real. and yeah, ultimately it destroys the perception of what people think outside the community. that's bad.
This is actually, personally, my biggest concern as well. The biggest reason I am hesitant to allow commercial ventures on this site is I do not want to see the community, the site, kentona, the users, etc. get taken advantage of.
It's one of the biggest reason I'm leery of Kickstarter in general, for instance. It is very hard to hold people accountable for things they do over the Internet. People should be allowed to hold fundraisers, ask for donations, even do a kickstarter if they want, and advertise these things on their own personal game pages or blogs. But I don't, in general, think things like this should be officially supported or endorsed by the site.
I don't know about RMRK, but RRR and RMW both allow commercial games with the general attitude being that they're not responsible or liable for it in any way. The allowance of them hasn't affected either of those two sites noticeably. I think moving to allow commercial games here is the natural thing to do if we want to keep with the times.
I don't think any special restrictions should be necessary for commercial games. By posting your game here, you're putting it up for public critique, so you only have yourself to blame if you put up something subpar and it gets ridiculed.
I don't think any special restrictions should be necessary for commercial games. By posting your game here, you're putting it up for public critique, so you only have yourself to blame if you put up something subpar and it gets ridiculed.
author=JudeHow so?
It won't be tomorrow, but if commercial games take hold at RMN it will fundamentally change it.
I guess I haven't thought about it until recently, but what if a project isn't originally planned to be commercial but it turns out to have the quality of a commercial title and the creator decides to take that route? I assume with the current system the project would get removed, right?
I definitely don't think RM needs any built-in commercial support or that games should be sold directly from the site. I'd be too afraid that it turns into a marketing machine. But, if commercial games are truly treated the same way as every other project in terms of reviews, user feedback, front-page screenshots, etc. (if the focus remains on the game and it's quality, rather than potential revenue) I see no particular problem.
SO MANY QUESTIONS
I definitely don't think RM needs any built-in commercial support or that games should be sold directly from the site. I'd be too afraid that it turns into a marketing machine. But, if commercial games are truly treated the same way as every other project in terms of reviews, user feedback, front-page screenshots, etc. (if the focus remains on the game and it's quality, rather than potential revenue) I see no particular problem.
SO MANY QUESTIONS
How would fangames, which usually utilize copyrighted content from their base work without permission from the IP holders, and games that use rips and other such illegal/"gray-area" materials be affected by the inclusion of commercial ventures on RMN?
Fangames and materials like rips are illegal by their very nature and may or may not buy the ire of the IP holders, but you have to admit that the games themselves have been largely great as art. A lot of the memorable RM2K(3) classics were fangames (ie: FF Endless Nova) or used rips in some fashion (ie: Legion Saga, Kindred Saga).
Fangames and rip-using games would obviously still be free like they are now (they need to be from their very nature), but I'm asking in regards to RMN's future general policy towards them if commercial games are allowed here. While I don't mind seeing commercial games on RMN, I definitely would not want to see them here at the cost of stifling any other kind of games.
Fangames and materials like rips are illegal by their very nature and may or may not buy the ire of the IP holders, but you have to admit that the games themselves have been largely great as art. A lot of the memorable RM2K(3) classics were fangames (ie: FF Endless Nova) or used rips in some fashion (ie: Legion Saga, Kindred Saga).
Fangames and rip-using games would obviously still be free like they are now (they need to be from their very nature), but I'm asking in regards to RMN's future general policy towards them if commercial games are allowed here. While I don't mind seeing commercial games on RMN, I definitely would not want to see them here at the cost of stifling any other kind of games.
author=kentonaauthor=JudeHow so?
It won't be tomorrow, but if commercial games take hold at RMN it will fundamentally change it.
It hinges on whether or not commercial games take hold and succeed, which might be a longshot or at the very least take a long time. And by succeed I don't mean that we have commercial game profiles and the website doesn't collapse--I mean that the website is successfully attracting independent commercial game developers and their fans.
It will fundamentally change the community because it will shift the bulk of its active userbase from being developers to players. While there are some breakout hits, most of the games here are played by people who also make the same type of games. It's the nature of a hobbyist community--the focus is on the hobby itself: RPG development.
Commercial games are higher profile. The potential for them to have broad exposure is greater. Their game pages will attract more players than they do game developers. These players will trickle outside of the respective game page that drew them here and into other game profiles and the forums.
It's a double-edged sword. Having more people playing our games is a positive, but when the majority of our active userbase is players rather than developers then we are no longer a hobbyist game developer community... we're just a gaming community. If you don't care about being a hobbyist community than this won't matter to you at all, but it is a fundamental change.
It's still too early to judge whether or not it has changed the RM Web community, although I predict it never will. The key difference is RMW is an RPG Maker community--as in the software itself, not just people who make RPGs. While people have made commercial games with RPG Maker, it is a software package that targets hobbyists so its broader userbase will be hobbyists. We have no such restrictions at RMN, so our potential to attract commercial games is bigger.
If RMN succeeds at attracting commercial games--of which the first step to being attractive is to actually allow commercial games--commercial games and their players will inevitably be majority of our active userbase. Look at IndieDB and sort by popularity or rating. The top 100 is mostly filled with commercial titles with thousands of ratings and hundreds of thousands to millions of views.
Also, your timing is suspicious. The admin of the site allows commercial games once the admin himself has a commercial game to upload a game page for. :)
author=KingArthurrest assured that I will never enact a policy during my tenure that would force me to take down my Hero's Realm gameprofile.
How would fangames, which usually utilize copyrighted content from their base work without permission from the IP holders, and games that use rips and other such illegal/"gray-area" materials be affected by the inclusion of commercial ventures on RMN?
Fangames and materials like rips are illegal by their very nature and may or may not buy the ire of the IP holders, but you have to admit that the games themselves have been largely great as art. A lot of the memorable RM2K(3) classics were fangames (ie: FF Endless Nova) or used rips in some fashion (ie: Legion Saga, Kindred Saga).
Fangames and rip-using games would obviously still be free like they are now (they need to be from their very nature), but I'm asking in regards to RMN's future general policy towards them if commercial games are allowed here. While I don't mind seeing commercial games on RMN, I definitely would not want to see them here at the cost of stifling any other kind of games.
@jude; while that is a possibility, it seems like a rather remote one. I have spoken with Touchfuzzy on the subject and in his experience the kinds of commercial developers that are attracted to sites like RMN are the hobbyist commercial developers. While RMN ostensibly has a wider base than RMW (in terms of engines and kinds of games we have), I think that I can safely say that we are still primarily an RPG Maker (software) site.
Also, your timing is suspicious. The admin of the site allows commercial games once the admin himself has a commercial game to upload a game page for. :)Honestly, this is a coincidence! It really is.
