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RPGS, BALANCE OF POWER AND DIFFICULTY
Posts
KhaliCanvas Studios
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CloseSomething about games that I have always liked is the rise to power. For example kotor or aoe.
Now in a traditional rpg game, how to make the players feel like their all so power full but keep the game challenging at the same time. For example if his stats are great he will feel all so power full but the enemies will be a piece of cake.
Now in a traditional rpg game, how to make the players feel like their all so power full but keep the game challenging at the same time. For example if his stats are great he will feel all so power full but the enemies will be a piece of cake.
Well, generally you do this gradatively. Present him a challenge, a tough one. The beats it, harshly. Then he'll feel rewarded and strong! But that's just the first step -- you present a harder challenge, but allow the player to redo that first challenge again. }He redoes the first with ease, wich means that he has grown in strength, yet he is troubled with the new one, once again beating it harshly.
That's generally the deal when it comes to random encounters and overall gameplay mechanics. You learn something, exam comes, you feel rewarded. Then you learn something else, etc.
That's generally the deal when it comes to random encounters and overall gameplay mechanics. You learn something, exam comes, you feel rewarded. Then you learn something else, etc.
Game balance is tricky because, in most games, there is no perfect formula for making the game gradually more difficult. Challenges in RPGs tend to be strategy-based, so in a well-made RPG, even if a player has excellent stats they can easily lose a battle if they do not think strategically.
As JosephSeraph pointed out, each new challenge is essentially an exam. In an action game, these new challenges would test a player's reflexes and mastery of the controls, which naturally improve as the player continues playing. In an RPG, a player should have to apply what they have learned about combat, abilities, etc. in order to be victorious.
For example, suppose the player has been breezing through the last several encounters with a basic attack strategy, and is then confronted with a boss that fully heals itself after taking a certain amount of damage. In addition, the fight will automatically be lost after 10 rounds of combat have passed.
Obviously the frontal assault won't work, so the player will have to find some way to deplete the enemy's magic points and finish off the boss, fast. However, when not healing, the boss drains the party's magic points. So, the strategy becomes doing enough damage to the boss to force it to heal, which prevents it from stealing the party's MP, while also stealing away the enemy's own MP. If the player is clever, they will be able to fully deplete the boss's MP and finish it off before time runs out.
This is just a very basic example of how you can switch things up a bit to get the player thinking (there will likely be alternative solutions to the above problem in your game). Rather than be frustrated, the player will feel smart for figuring out a new strategy that works, and that they can apply to later challenges as well.
As JosephSeraph pointed out, each new challenge is essentially an exam. In an action game, these new challenges would test a player's reflexes and mastery of the controls, which naturally improve as the player continues playing. In an RPG, a player should have to apply what they have learned about combat, abilities, etc. in order to be victorious.
For example, suppose the player has been breezing through the last several encounters with a basic attack strategy, and is then confronted with a boss that fully heals itself after taking a certain amount of damage. In addition, the fight will automatically be lost after 10 rounds of combat have passed.
Obviously the frontal assault won't work, so the player will have to find some way to deplete the enemy's magic points and finish off the boss, fast. However, when not healing, the boss drains the party's magic points. So, the strategy becomes doing enough damage to the boss to force it to heal, which prevents it from stealing the party's MP, while also stealing away the enemy's own MP. If the player is clever, they will be able to fully deplete the boss's MP and finish it off before time runs out.
This is just a very basic example of how you can switch things up a bit to get the player thinking (there will likely be alternative solutions to the above problem in your game). Rather than be frustrated, the player will feel smart for figuring out a new strategy that works, and that they can apply to later challenges as well.
Puzzle enemies are the stock and trade of battle balance. Even FFX uses them to great effect, and FFX is known for its terrifically easy final boss. Leveling up in many games is easy, and the weapons and level boosts can make your character freakishly powerful, making battles a breeze. So having the occasional enemy who is only weak to a certain element, or a certain attack puts a damper on overgrind party (the only other way to balance this out is with a marathon boss that takes like a zillion hits, or one that forces you to heal 1/3 of the time, or both) making players actually have to think to survive. If the puzzle itself is a minigame, this doubles as a source of fun.
FFX and Mana Khemia were especially good at this. Each major boss would test some new skill of combat, the next to last in MK being all about controlling battle speed for a hasted boss that kept adding turns.
FFX and Mana Khemia were especially good at this. Each major boss would test some new skill of combat, the next to last in MK being all about controlling battle speed for a hasted boss that kept adding turns.
EgyLynx
0
Game difficulty is not only how hard battles are...
Or enemies if game game is Legacy of Goku-like. (so called argade rpg)
Or enemies if game game is Legacy of Goku-like. (so called argade rpg)
Another interesting way to maintain game challenge is to have all enemy monsters have their attacks as ignore defense skills (and no reflect). If no matter how strong you get, the monster deals 25 damage, this means you've got to use defensive abilities to try to reduce damage.
This is more suited for a horror-style rpg, where monsters wear away at you, and there aren't the potions or medi-packs to go around. But it's a good way of maintaining challenge because even the mooks can create a serious threat by way of attrition.
This is more suited for a horror-style rpg, where monsters wear away at you, and there aren't the potions or medi-packs to go around. But it's a good way of maintaining challenge because even the mooks can create a serious threat by way of attrition.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
wh...what would be the point of upgrading your defense if everything ignores it? like why would you even have a defense stat that doesn't do anything? Or even if it worked against 10% of enemies, that's confusing and inconsistent, at least use elements to differentiate between attacks in a way that the player can make sense of.
It's also probably mostly irrelevant to this topic? Since if fighting the same enemies keeps feeling the same as you level up, you've got the worst of both worlds: you don't feel any stronger and you also aren't experiencing any new challenges. It's like grinding, but without a reward. You don't feel any stronger because you aren't any stronger.
What I'm pretty sure you actually want is just, uh, stronger enemies as the game goes on? Like I know that sounds kind of obvious, but there you go.
This is a big reason why a lot of RPGs start out with the hero fighting bunnies and rats - it creates a feeling in the player's mind later that he's come a long way (at the expense of making the first few hours of the game boring as shit, though). Other games start out with the player teamed up with powerful veteran warriors, and then remove them as the player becomes powerful enough to no longer need them - this also creates a feeling that you're getting stronger, because even though removing the guest party members weakens your team, it's a sign that you no longer need the help. There are subtleties you can add as far as pacing goes, too - I've heard people suggest that the occasional easy battle can make players feel like they've powered up, especially if it's something they had trouble with before. I've also seen games where difficult bosses from earlier in the game will return later as normal enemies in groups of several at a time - at which point they're still reasonably challenging for a group of normal enemies, but the player feels badass for being able to kill three at once with less effort than it previously took to kill just one.
It's also probably mostly irrelevant to this topic? Since if fighting the same enemies keeps feeling the same as you level up, you've got the worst of both worlds: you don't feel any stronger and you also aren't experiencing any new challenges. It's like grinding, but without a reward. You don't feel any stronger because you aren't any stronger.
What I'm pretty sure you actually want is just, uh, stronger enemies as the game goes on? Like I know that sounds kind of obvious, but there you go.
This is a big reason why a lot of RPGs start out with the hero fighting bunnies and rats - it creates a feeling in the player's mind later that he's come a long way (at the expense of making the first few hours of the game boring as shit, though). Other games start out with the player teamed up with powerful veteran warriors, and then remove them as the player becomes powerful enough to no longer need them - this also creates a feeling that you're getting stronger, because even though removing the guest party members weakens your team, it's a sign that you no longer need the help. There are subtleties you can add as far as pacing goes, too - I've heard people suggest that the occasional easy battle can make players feel like they've powered up, especially if it's something they had trouble with before. I've also seen games where difficult bosses from earlier in the game will return later as normal enemies in groups of several at a time - at which point they're still reasonably challenging for a group of normal enemies, but the player feels badass for being able to kill three at once with less effort than it previously took to kill just one.
Well, let me reword it:
The player faces a hard challenge, beats it, feels awesome.
The player faces the same challenge again (as a random encounter of a monster with similar tactics, perhaps) and feels even more awesome for having defeated it with such ease.
Then the player faces a challenge that feels even harder than the first one (the first time you fought). Beats the challenge (dying a few times), faces the challenge again, etc.
The challenge is ever growing, not stagnated. And the player obvioulsy can see he has even more resources, and that he can insta-cripple everything in a backtracked area.
He just know he's gone from Rabite Forest to Baal's Nest, that's all!
The player faces a hard challenge, beats it, feels awesome.
The player faces the same challenge again (as a random encounter of a monster with similar tactics, perhaps) and feels even more awesome for having defeated it with such ease.
Then the player faces a challenge that feels even harder than the first one (the first time you fought). Beats the challenge (dying a few times), faces the challenge again, etc.
The challenge is ever growing, not stagnated. And the player obvioulsy can see he has even more resources, and that he can insta-cripple everything in a backtracked area.
He just know he's gone from Rabite Forest to Baal's Nest, that's all!
author=LockeZ
wh...what would be the point of upgrading your defense if everything ignores it? like why would you even have a defense stat that doesn't do anything? Or even if it worked against 10% of enemies, that's confusing and inconsistent, at least use elements to differentiate between attacks in a way that the player can make sense of.
In a horror setting, you'd find stuff like bulletproof vest. It's actually an attribute defense vest (Ranged attributes get set to 0%). Other stuff might offer protection as a double-edged (sure it reduces Slash damage to 50%, but because it's made of iron, fire attacks deal extra damage (maybe 150%), do I really want it?) thing. Gains in a horror RPG would be more along the lines of of better gear, better HP (the feeling of helplessness is key here, so maybe not that much), and faster attack/speed. With better attack and speed, you would have a better time managing early level monsters, while still maintaining the sense that as they wear you out, one could take you by surprise.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I get the idea behind not having defense, that makes sense
I just don't get the idea behind ignoring defense, which is very different from not having it. The key difference being that you have it. And you lie and tell the player that it works. And then it doesn't.
I just don't get the idea behind ignoring defense, which is very different from not having it. The key difference being that you have it. And you lie and tell the player that it works. And then it doesn't.
Yep, if you're going this way just make defense a static, low stat.
Like AGI should be.
Well, this system, though, is indeed nice.
_VERY_nice.
Now that I think of it you could also potentially have a FFX-esque system where equipment with defensive properties only reduced percentages of the damage by altering the Elements on the datbas tab. Never thought of it.
Of course, I'm using my 2k3 mindset haha
Like AGI should be.
Well, this system, though, is indeed nice.
_VERY_nice.
Now that I think of it you could also potentially have a FFX-esque system where equipment with defensive properties only reduced percentages of the damage by altering the Elements on the datbas tab. Never thought of it.
Of course, I'm using my 2k3 mindset haha
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I sometimes forget that people still have to worry about all the extremely basic shit that RM2K3 doesn't let you do. That's probably what he meant by defense-ignoring -- he was thinking of an engine that doesn't let you just edit the status and equipment menus to not have a defense stat.
I don't think it works for this purpose, though. I really do think that blatantly preventing the player from ever getting any stronger is counterproductive to making the player feel like he's gotten stronger.
You can get exactly the same result balance-wise by making the game automatically pick groups of enemies that are the same strength as the player - both methods ensure that the player is evenly matched, but psychologically one causes the player to feel like he can overcome stronger obstacles and the other doesn't. Even though the only difference might really be that the enemy has a new name and new sprite. (This isn't necessarily a GOOD way of doing it, it's just better than making each individual enemy scale to the player's strength. It was done well in Dragon Age and poorly in SaGa Frontier.)
I don't think it works for this purpose, though. I really do think that blatantly preventing the player from ever getting any stronger is counterproductive to making the player feel like he's gotten stronger.
You can get exactly the same result balance-wise by making the game automatically pick groups of enemies that are the same strength as the player - both methods ensure that the player is evenly matched, but psychologically one causes the player to feel like he can overcome stronger obstacles and the other doesn't. Even though the only difference might really be that the enemy has a new name and new sprite. (This isn't necessarily a GOOD way of doing it, it's just better than making each individual enemy scale to the player's strength. It was done well in Dragon Age and poorly in SaGa Frontier.)
Shoobinator
662
I think attacks that ignore defense can be okay as long as it's a spell/skill that indicates this because otherwise it's just unfair.
I always do ignore defense because otherwise magic does stupid stuff like dealing 0 damage just because you equipped an armor, when you definitely want it to deal something, just a bit less.
Also, it depends on the genre. Horror, as most of the youtube rpgmaking guides will tell you, is about creating a sense of helplessness (you do this by carefully controlling resources, and yea character growth). Fantasy is about heroism, and so the balance sways more toward badass items, and good character growth (within balance of avoiding being stupidly strong).
Also, it depends on the genre. Horror, as most of the youtube rpgmaking guides will tell you, is about creating a sense of helplessness (you do this by carefully controlling resources, and yea character growth). Fantasy is about heroism, and so the balance sways more toward badass items, and good character growth (within balance of avoiding being stupidly strong).
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
So the discussion is "how to give heroes a rise to power involving extraordinary strength accumulated over time in an RPG without hurting your game's difficulty" and you keep bringing up horror games WHY exactly?
Travio
149
author=bulmabriefs144
I always do ignore defense because otherwise magic does stupid stuff like dealing 0 damage just because you equipped an armor, when you definitely want it to deal something, just a bit less.
As an extension on having magic avoid defense/interact with armor in RPG Maker games:
In the systems with scripting, it's ridiculously easy to change how magic interacts with defense. In those without... well, I'll use RM2k as the example:
Make an attribute called 'Magic' under Attributes, setting A to 100%, B to 75%, C to 50%, D to 25%, E to 0%.
Select it as your Attack Attribute in the skill, select Defense ignore.
Make sure it isn't selected under Defense Attributes on the armor.
Set all characters to have A effect on Magic Attribute attacks.
You can now make armor that also reduces the effect of incoming 'Magic' attacks simply by selecting Magic under the armor's Defense Attribute.
It can also be used to make characters who are generally resistant to Magic attacks without relying on special armor/items... and the same with monsters.
... ok, this might've been off topic but, it was brought up?
Shoobinator
662
Yeah, you want to be doing attributes to some extent too. Another example is having an ignore defense spell that is still tied to some attribute. Therefore, with the right equipment or natural enemy defenses, that spell's damage could be reduced.
Ignore defense =/= ignore immunities, if you know what I'm sayin.
For rising power with the help of characters/theming as well as gameplay mechanics, see Megaman X:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM
Ignore defense =/= ignore immunities, if you know what I'm sayin.
For rising power with the help of characters/theming as well as gameplay mechanics, see Megaman X:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM
author=LockeZ
So the discussion is "how to give heroes a rise to power involving extraordinary strength accumulated over time in an RPG without hurting your game's difficulty" and you keep bringing up horror games WHY exactly?
If you read the title of the topic, it isn't about fantastic extraordinary high fantasy tri-ace lv.9999 rpgs. IT's about RPGs. Horror RPGs have been brung to the topic because, well, they're RPGs.
Duh.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Yeah, but he's using horror games as an excuse to talk specifically about systems where the player doesn't get more powerful as the game goes on.
I mean, yes, there are horror RPGs, but bulma's right that they usually don't work like normal RPGs: they come up with ways to make sure you never feel strong. Because growing in power on an epic scale to the point that things aren't a threat any more is, like, the antithesis of horror. Horror is all about disempowerment of the protagonist, about making you feel helpless so that the threats feel legitimately threatening. This topic is all about finding ways to make the player feel like they've turned into a badass mofo without making the challenge actually get any easier.
I mean, yes, there are horror RPGs, but bulma's right that they usually don't work like normal RPGs: they come up with ways to make sure you never feel strong. Because growing in power on an epic scale to the point that things aren't a threat any more is, like, the antithesis of horror. Horror is all about disempowerment of the protagonist, about making you feel helpless so that the threats feel legitimately threatening. This topic is all about finding ways to make the player feel like they've turned into a badass mofo without making the challenge actually get any easier.
author=LockeZ
So the discussion is "how to give heroes a rise to power involving extraordinary strength accumulated over time in an RPG without hurting your game's difficulty" and you keep bringing up horror games WHY exactly?
author=Me
Another interesting way to maintain game challenge is to have all enemy monsters have their attacks as ignore defense skills (and no reflect). If no matter how strong you get, the monster deals 25 damage, this means you've got to use defensive abilities to try to reduce damage.
This is more suited for a horror-style rpg, where monsters wear away at you, and there aren't the potions or medi-packs to go around. But it's a good way of maintaining challenge because even the mooks can create a serious threat by way of attrition.
Mentioned it right there, and again several times. The key point about a horror game is that it's survival based, and that it's about helplessness.
In a fantasy game, you want weapons/armor to work, you want magic to be effective, and there's an overly positive outlook. The key to balancing both are completely different mechanics, that is tougher enemies (fantasy) vs weaker heroes (horror).
So yea, different genres, different mechanics. In a fantasy, there are two other things (besides what we've mentioned already) to curb mindless bashing away at enemies. Reflect and Evasion. Between those two, you can pretty much slow down either hack/slash types that just use attack and people who try to just nuke stuff. (And of course, if you want to make a battle really hard have enemies that at Turn 0 get afflicted with a mix of the two, forcing a very systematic approach (I put Ghosts and Carbuncles in the same battle, and despite having no heavy hitters, it was still a hard to finish battle)) Another thing is, all skills should have elemental attributes. That way, if it seems like endgame it's pretty easy to use Blast3 to nuke everything, you can say okay, Blast3 is powerful but it's neutral damage; this normally is very effective, but we'll make this monster immune against it, and weak to something random like thunder. Basically, the key to maintaining difficulty is curbing two things: (1) single approach battles and (2) using the strongest stuff available.
