HIDDEN ITEMS?

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author=LockeZ
Uh, if it's something that important, you don't want them hidden too well. Because that's bullshit. No one will ever find it.

Have you played FF12? There is a weapon, the Zodiac Spear, that is the best weapon in the game, dealing probably twice as much damage as anything else. You can only find it by buying a strategy guide, though. Because the process of getting it is the worst thing in any game. Specifically, you have to avoid opening four specific treasure chests throughout the game, which are totally random and have no indication before or after being opened that there's anything special about them. If you open one of these treasure chests, you cannot get the zodiac spear. If you leave all four chests alone, the zodiac spear will appear in a chest in an optional dungeon - when opening this chest you have to TURN OFF your accessory that makes you "get better items from treasure chests", the only time in the game you need to do so, and once again with absolutely no warning or hint. (You can also get a second zodiac spear at the end of the game, through a process that is even worse)

FFX had a similar chest thing, only thankfully it was only restricted to a single dungeon (it erased area chests if you opened wrong, or tried to leave the area, and reset the counter if you tried to save. The screwy part is that it was even savestate-proof due to the bit about leaving the area).

If you want hidden items, make them random but eventually appearing (the veggies I mentioned earlier), or achievement based (I have a treasure for all chests open, and a treasure to carry over for the Game+ if you finish the whole game without saving. Both of these are freakishly difficult, especially the second, but not idiotprone by doing something you'd do anyway). Random chance even absurd random chance is always preferable to random chance plus an element of user choice, which could then be screwed over permanently.

Remember, low to the ground but noticeable > almost invisible. Every time. The same goes for secrets, someone should at least give you a hint on the matter, and it should be doable (no Zodiac Spears, unless you're a sadist). Permanent gone secrets is usually a crummy way to go, so if you have one, tell directly.
LouisCyphre
can't make a bad game if you don't finish any games
4523
GUYS

You can just... find Zodiac Spears in the Henne Mines phase 2 dig. They are on the table for the respawning normal chests there; they're like a 10% drop.

Stop spreading myths. ;n;
Isn't it more of a 0.01% chance to get it there? I faintly remembering it being stupidly stupidly impossible to get that way...
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=LockeZ
(You can get also get a second zodiac spear at the end of the game, through a process that is even worse)

I did say that you could get one later!

But yeah, the chest has a 10% chance to appear. If it appears, there's a 10% chance it'll contain an item instead of gil. And if it contains an item, there's a 10% chance it'll be the zodiac spear instead of a knot of rust. So that's a 1/1000 chance, when entering the room, that you'll get a spear. To reset the chest, walk three rooms away and then come back. (And then you have to, once again, NOT be wearing the accessory that has the description "makes chests have better loot" and is required to get rare items from any treasure chest in the game except the zodiac spear, which inexplicably works in reverse. If you're wearing that accessory, you will never get the spear.)

If you assume it only takes sixty seconds to walk three rooms away (which gives the chest a chance to respawn) and then walk back, that's fifteen hours of farming a single treasure chest, on average. In actuality it takes more than sixty seconds and so it's even longer than that. I spent three hours walking back and forth between those rooms trying to farm one before ultimately quitting. FF12 is duuuuuuumb.
author=LockeZ
Yeah, the chest has a 10% chance to appear. If it appears, there's a 10% chance it'll contain an item instead of gil. And if it contains an item, there's a 10% chance it'll be the zodiac spear instead of a knot of rust. (And then you have to, once again, NOT be wearing the accessory that has the description "makes chests have better loot" and improves the loot from every single treasure chest in the game except the zodiac spear. If you're wearing that accessory, you will never get the spear.)


Just to reiterate, I"m being obvious, but this makes 0.1*0.1, or a freaking ONE PERCENT CHANCE of getting the item. While
author=LockeZ
NOT wearing the accessory that has the description "makes chests have better loot" and improves the loot from every single treasure chest in the game except the zodiac spear.


Now that I come to think of it Valkyrie Profile had something similar to this, but I can't remember at all.
Quick now tell the one about the invisible bow in the invisible chest in the IZJS version!

From what I've gathered there is an invisible chest has a chance to spawn on the upper deck of the airship whenever you take a trip. Most of the time it's 10 gil, rarely a knot of rust, and super duper grind secret a bow called the Seitengrate Bow which is literally invisible when wielded. Info here. Thankfully OCD players won't learn of its existence through the license board as it doesn't need one.



e:
iirc Valkyrie Profile has an item that, when equipped, changes what you can transmute items into including being able to transmute items you couldn't before. You could get it in Lezard's Tower in chapter 4 and almost immediately get an end game sword if you didn't sell what appeared to be a useless item acquired earlier in the game.
In later DQ games, the hidden loot was usually through a clue of the landscape. A clump of grass out of place, an oddly placed bush or flower, cracked earth in the middle of a nice looking lawn... when done with the intent of leaving a hint, searching for buried loot can work.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Having personally quit DQ7 halfway through specifically because of the hidden items, I will strongly argue against the fact that it worked.
No, seriously, I do. I love finding things in barrels, boxes and pots; cabinets, cupboards and bookcases. Sometimes even small patches of oddly coloured grass and the occasional hole in a tree~<3
As long as the game has trained me to look in those places for things, that is.


Barrel!
I've always enjoyed searching for things on shelves in games too - think of the fun inherant in discovering 'smut' in some FF titles (4 and Dimensions spring to mind) and other such easter eggs :) they add a great amount of character to the world setting in a game.

Barrel!
Oh, I find it so retarded for characters to retardly stand in front of barrels and retardedly scream retard "barrel!"
I could insert the word "retarded" here a thousand more times =_=
But then again, I just played Atelier Iris (I don't know if any other game does this) and I did find the game shallow and poorly developed by the little that I played.
But, then again, this is for another topic.
I'll agree about shouting 'Barrel!' for no goddamn reason, but disagree about Atelier Iris 2. That game is fun as hell and pretty interesting to boot.
Also, I think it's a small easter-egg thing that all the games (Mana Khemia, Atelier everything and other games made by the same company) have added in, and it's cute the first time you see it but after the 20th you're about ready to boot whoever is shouting it out. (Oh no, we're supposed to be trying to hide from someone... BARREL!)
Nah, I just player AI1.
That voice acting just completely destroyed ma ears >_>
That item synthesis system was a nice, but poorly developed concept >_>
The battle system was... Awkward, although reasonable, etc >_>
And I generally love VA judged by people as being bad, such as FFX's ;~;
I do like to do this actually.

I like to put items in locations not everyone would look. A lot of people would skip over it, but the really observant ones or the exploring types would find it. And maybe when they replay the game one day, they will look there and think, "Wow, I never even knew about this. Even now this game still has things new to me."

Ofcourse, you have to be reasonable with the items. Putting a crappy potion inside you can buy at any store for 20 gold is not very rewarding, and putting in an overpowered weapon or piece of armor isn't really fair to those who don't find it.

Chrono Cross did this in a nice way, and often humorous. In the very beginning of the game, in the local bar, there was a barrel. If you interacted with the barrel, it would say "It's just a barrel...". But if you interacted with it two more times, it would go "Whaddaya want already?! I said I'm just a barrel! Alright man, HERE!". I personally found that very amusing. And that would net you a useful Element (basically Materia). Useful, but not overpowered or absolutely necessary.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Mountains're nice.
author=LockeZ
(And then you have to, once again, NOT be wearing the accessory that has the description "makes chests have better loot" and is required to get rare items from any treasure chest in the game except the zodiac spear, which inexplicably works in reverse. If you're wearing that accessory, you will never get the spear.)


In vague defense of that, I believe the developer's acknowledged it as a misflag of the Zodiac Spear that wasn't discovered until long after the game was 'gold' and became a 'meh, let them find it instead of trying to fix it' thing.
I was able to defeat the final boss of FF12 with really average levels and equipment for that point without pressing a single button. FF12, I love your story, setting and characters, but your game design could have used some work.

But getting back on topic, some of you may be familiar with the classic arcade game "Tower of Druaga", a game all about discovering secrets and items that are hidden by increasingly cryptic conditions and are absolutely necessary to progress. Some people loved figuring out all the secrets and finding all the items, while other players were absolutely miserable.

As one of the first games to make use of secret items of this kind (that I know of), it's a useful example to define your approach; basically, do you want the secrets to be cryptic and difficult so that those players who do persevere will obtain satisfaction for their dedication, or do you want the secrets to be more 'fair' so that, theoretically, anyone can find them if they stray off the beaten path? Both approaches are valid, but be sure to let your player know what kind of game is being played early on, to avoid frustration.
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