[POLL] DO YOU THINK RM2K/3 WILL EVER DIE OFF COMPLETELY?

Poll

Do you think RM2K/3 will ever die off completely? - Results

No!!!!!! long live the king.
30
22%
Probably not, there is always someone who will want it.
66
50%
After another maker comes out, most likly.
15
11%
Um, I thought it was already dead.
20
15%

Posts

author=GreatRedSpirit
Any game that doesn't support maximized borderless window is already archaic. The current implementation of full screen already needs to die along with a lack of support for non-1920x1080 monitor resolutions and single monitor assumptions. The SNES emulator I use came down to what lets me throw it on my TV monitor and take up the entire screen without awkward issues should it ever lose focus.

e: Also mad at how annoying it is to get full screen games to follow aspect ratios too. AMD's implementation of forcing non-native resolutions to follow native aspect ratio is incredibly annoying at best and if Nvidia's control panel is any better at it is cause enough for me to switch next time I upgrade my GPU.

While noticeable to us, a lot of that really depends on how much it matters to the mass audience. While invariably someone is going to notice stuff like maximized borderless windows, will the 100,000th player who downloads a popular game give a shit?

I'm not saying that to disagree with you just because, but realizing what's a subtle effect on game enjoyability and what's just a minor nuance that nobody will notice is important to developers like ourselves.
I've dabbled in both RM2K3 and RMXP.
Why anyone still bothers with RM2K3 is beyond me.
Yes there are community patches/upgrades/workarounds but it is still a terribly obsolete program to work with.
I understand the very narrow appeal of very specific 'features' that may be missed, but I feel that rather than clinging to RM2K3, the games could be ported to RMXP instead and be the better for it. Sure it is nice to have easily-viewed animations and moving battle sprites in the editor, but you can just as easily do that through more powerful external editors (which let you actually edit the sprites). Animations already have their own tab in RMXP, but the RM2K3 version shows them by default in an easier way.

I'd love for people to give specific reasons why they use RM2K3 aside from "I am used to it". I can pretty much guarantee that 99% of the RM2K3-specific 'bonus' features are already implemented in RMXP either by default or through RGSS scripts.

Speaking of which. Why is RMXP better than RM2K3 by leaps and bounds? Why will it always be better? Because it has RGSS.
/ thread
Is RMXP still locked at a horrible 40 fps?
author=Darken
Is RMXP still locked at a horrible 40 fps?


I'm not aware of RMXP being 'locked' at 40 FPS.

Either the games I played had unlocked it via RGSS workarounds or it has been 'fixed' by the developers (though I'd bet it is the RGSS community that did the trick).

When I recorded videos in Bandicam, the FPS counter went up to 60 and pretty much stayed there the entire time. The game can be recorded and playback in 60 FPS as well. I recorded a segment in 60 FPS then viewed the playback statistics while replaying the movie in (open sourced) Media Player Classic.

I hope this answers your question :)
author=darkwraith007
I'd love for people to give specific reasons why they use RM2K3 aside from "I am used to it". I can pretty much guarantee that 99% of the RM2K3-specific 'bonus' features are already implemented in RMXP either by default or through RGSS scripts.

Speaking of which. Why is RMXP better than RM2K3 by leaps and bounds? Why will it always be better?

RGSS.
/ thread

Based on your attitude, I don't imagine that any reason a person could give would satisfy you, so why bother? Although, one reason I know of is that oldschool games with oldschool graphics are easier to work with in 2k3.

For certain types of games, 2k3 works just fine. The benefits of using a different RM engine would be negligible. When you use custom systems, you avoid all the problems with the default menu and battle system. You can create an illusion of quality beyond what the default database functions allow. RGSS is powerful, I'm sure, but I'm not interested in learning it. And if I don't learn it, then the newer engines aren't going to make as much of a difference.

99% of the 2k3 users wouldn't disagree that the newer engines can make higher quality games. But this isn't a thread about the quality of games or defending 2k3 in any way. It's about whether or not people will continue to use 2k3. The answer is and always will be, yes.

Get over it.
author=darkwraith007
I've dabbled in both RM2K3 and RMXP.
Why anyone bothers with RM2K3 is beyond me.

I'd love for people to give specific reasons why they use RM2K3 aside from "I am used to it". I can pretty much guarantee that 99% of the RM2K3-specific 'bonus' features are already implemented in RMXP either by default or through RGSS scripts.

Speaking of which. Why is RMXP better than RM2K3 by leaps and bounds? Why will it always be better?


Because, like, some people may like using it (rm2k3) because it makes them feel the most comfortable using it and it's still perfect for most beginners who aren't quite familiar with RGSS yet or don't have the money to purchase some of the newer makers. I do agree that rm2k3 is getting to be obsolete and most of what you can do can already be done in the other makers -- but so what? I still use rm2k3 because I still have a ton of fun using it, and, to me, it still satisfies most of my creative output. Sure, I'm starting to s l o w l y turn away to get on board with the times, but I can never fully turn my back on 2k3 because, occasionally, somewhere down the road, I may want to dust off the ol' girl and go back and time and make myself a classic rm2k3 game again.

You know, one of the greatest things that I've seen around the indie gaming community lately is that the gaming engine of choice that you use to make a game REALLY doesn't make a difference. It's like here; you got many different users making games with "Sphere," "Renpy," hell, even some people still use "Multimedia Fusion" & "ika" to make their games; it really doesn't matter as long as the game is fun to enjoy for both the player and the creator -- even if the software is over ten years old.

In fact, I admire rm2k3 users presentence in not giving up this wonderful piece of craftsmanship without a fight. Yes, one day it's gonna die. But as long as we have people who still use and play games with rm2k3, it will keep on living forever.

Also, I don't think XP is as good as 2k3 based solely on opinion, which is what you've basically said about your views on 2k3. I respect other people's opinions. But no need to lash out at everyone else because you feel your views are more judgemental than everyone else.

Anyways, let's just go back to making some games and having some fun, whatever engine we decide to use.
Well, having a GUI interface for managing sideview battles is nice. And even to this day, there are mountains more resources ready and available for Rm2k3.
Gonna respond to a few.

@ Sated:
Your attitude is unnecessary. Grow up or don't post.

@ Link_2112:
It is unfortunate that the good discussion points you make are marred by personal attacks and dismissal. The #dealwithit moniker had been done to death. This isn't 4chan so please adjust your attitude accordingly. You accuse me of dismissing further discussion when you are doing the very same thing with your 'get over it' at the end. Do you think putting that there somehow makes further discussion irrelevant? You are right in one thing in that I dismiss the points made by those who are unable to tell the difference between discussion and antagonism. If you can 'get over it' on your end and join the discussion then please feel free to do so. I'm not going to 'get over it' anytime soon. I have no problem with anyone using whatever game engine or programming language they like. I merely stated my views based on personal experience. That's what the point of this thread was, was it not? A 'what do you use and why' type of thread?

@ Addit:
My my, aren't we pretentious? Do I need to spell out that something is my opinion with every sentence that I type? Is it not a default assumption that things people say are 'opinions' until they qualify their statements with proof or state that they are facts? "As a matter of fact...blah blah blah" and so on is much easier to do than 'IMHO' in every sentence/paragraph.

I'm curious why my statements in the previous post above were seen as antagonistic in any way whatsoever to anyone. The thread is an opinion thread that invites us to discuss our thoughts on what we feel is better for making RPGs. I feel that the benefits of the RGSS (Ruby Game Scripting System) are powerful enough to outweigh the minor drawbacks in sticking with something because people are used to it. Similar arguments have been made for those people who refuse to update their software despite the newer versions being more secure. Oh, you're used to it? Despite the fact that those still on the internet using an unpatched Win98SE computer are able to get near-instantly zombified into a botnet? But of course we need to not order people around right? Who cares what people do to the detriment of the community as long as they're comfortable with it?

RM2K3 isn't anywhere near as important as an OS (thank god), but the use of RM2K3 is very limiting due to the lack of RGSS. I stated that RMXP and later versions are superior to RM2K3 by virtue of having the RGSS system accessibility. It is a game changer, in far more ways than even the RGSS scripters have fully realized.

TLDR: Everyone can use what they want, but they're missing out on the beauty of the RGSS if they stick with versions older than RMXP.
Alright people, calm down. No more personal attacks please, nor baiting. Friendly discussion without the insults, if you will.

--------------------------
Personally, I have trouble running XP on my computer (literally. My machine for some reason just hates the program and consequentially games made with it, too - which is a big issue when I have to play competition entries, let me tell you.) It's Windows 7 and has no such issue with VX/Ace nor RM95/2k/2k3. Just XP (I have no freaking idea!)

I agree that XP and up have a lot of potential, but there's something about breaking the limits of 2k3 that will always appeal to others. Add in that it's default battle system is side-view, which no other current RPG Maker program has, and the ease of use without having to worry about learning scripting to do certain things (XP and the newer ones took out a few basic commands that should, imo, have been left in) aaaaaand the excess of graphics... well, there's a lot of reasons to use it, even now.

It also has the 16x16 grid which just works so much better than 32x32 when making SNES-like games, as well as having a simple mapping system with no real lag when using events as a third layer (something XP and up have issues with) and it's understandable why people still love it.
While I'm an rm2k3 supporter (for the most part anyway) some of the replies you got have me 'stumped', darkwraith. I don't see what the the big deal with your post was. After all, everyone is entitled to a little of snark. ;) ...That being said, some of your words also have me stumped. For example, how is keep using rm2k3 in any way "detrimental for the community"?

In all fairness, most of us being amateurs, there's little difference what program do we pick up to make our games. Our skill level all across the board is fairly limited, so most games end up looking and feeling the same anyway. Consider this, the difference between an action rpg in rm2k3 with a clunky tile-based hit detection doesn't detract much "fun" from the overall game, as opposed to a scripted pixel-based one, does it? Not to mention you CAN pull off pixel-movement in rm2k3, but that's another story...

The "But scripting, you guys!" argument can only take you so far. If you (like me) don't know anything about scripting, you won't even be able to edit simple stuff. You won't be able to fix conflicting scripts. Even if you try, and you don't know what you're doing, one extra symbol somewhere and the script won't work. And one sad reality of our community is that help is scarce... Quite honestly, this is the reason why I keep away from rm2k3 plug-ins as well, because sometimes they clash and I can't fix them on my own.

And before you say: "Learn!". Well, yeah, but you can just wake up one day and pick up a new skill, specially not for a hobby. -_-;
@darkwraith007: your condescending attitude is unnecessary. Grow up or don't post. I genuinely wonder if you are able to communicate without being demeaning, combative or dismissive.
honestly, as far as I'm concerned VXA replaced 2k3 and so on as soon as it turned out that its editor wasn't broken in some fundamental way. if you prefer to event things, I'm fairly sure that Ace and 2k3 are just about on par, and the scripting can close whatever gap there is (albeit in a more complicated way).

I'm not about to make some huge ideological stance about it, though.

e: as far as resources go the conversion's always been pretty simple from my perspective. I fuck around with tilesets more than I care to admit, though, so that might just be my familiarity talking. (I think becoming familiar with all aspects of whatever you're using is pretty much necessary no matter what, though)
It seems I've poked a mod somehow.
I know better than to risk a ban by poking the bear :P
You win. I won't post on the forums anymore.
Anyone who wants some discussion can send me PMs or whatever.
Enjoy.
yeah I agree. Ace is the RPG Maker to finally live up to 2k3's legacy. I like it.
author=darkwraith007
It seems I've poked a mod somehow.
I know better than to risk a ban by poking the bear :P
You win. I won't post on the forums anymore.
Anyone who wants some discussion can send me PMs or whatever.
Enjoy.
dude you make good points. You just seem to douse them in flamebait before making them.

edit: and im not a mod

e2: and if i seem cranky its because my 3yo just took a big greasy poop in the hallway.
don't worry about it, he won't be hard to replace

the rpg maker community is the world's main producer of people who put an extreme spin on fairly boring middle-of-the-road stuff
It is unfortunate that the good discussion points you make are marred by personal attacks and dismissal.
Really? A light jab at the end of my fairly level headed comment derails the whole thing? You seem overly sensitive for someone so outspoken. I actually wanted to write angry things, but then I thought "What would Spock do?" and I bit my tougue.

Maybe you did that because you didn't want to try and refute the things I've said.

The #dealwithit moniker had been done to death. This isn't 4chan so please adjust your attitude accordingly.
I wouldn't know. I don't do 4chan, or twitter, or any of that social media crap. I guess in this day and age everything is cliche and done to death.

You accuse me of dismissing further discussion when you are doing the very same thing with your 'get over it' at the end. Do you think putting that there somehow makes further discussion irrelevant?
That's not what my get over it remark meant, at all. I didn't think putting that there made further discussion irrelevant, but you seem to think it did because you didn't respond to any of the many reasons we all have given.

You're sticking with "RGSS is awesome". Nothing more. Something we already know and admit to.

You are right in one thing in that I dismiss the points made by those who are unable to tell the difference between discussion and antagonism.
I didn't say anything about discussion vs antagonism.

If you can 'get over it' on your end and join the discussion then please feel free to do so.
Get over what, exactly? I have no problem admitting the newer engines and RGSS are better. I brought up some valid points.

I'm not going to 'get over it' anytime soon.
hehe Probably not. I didn't say get over it because I actually want you to get over something. I don't care either way.

I have no problem with anyone using whatever game engine or programming language they like.
Your posts contradict this statement.

I merely stated my views based on personal experience.
You did, then I stated mine, but you refused to play.

That's what the point of this thread was, was it not? A 'what do you use and why' type of thread?
NO. There's been some light discussion about comparing features, in the context of explaining why that person hasn't switched to newer engine. The point of the poll/topic was to talk about 2k3 dying out. Not to explain why people shouldn't use 2k3 and to try and sell them on RGSS.

Instead of giving up on the forums, maybe you should recheck your attitude and try again. People don't look for that kind of discussion, so don't expect any PM's xD
author=mawk
honestly, as far as I'm concerned VXA replaced 2k3 and so on as soon as it turned out that its editor wasn't broken in some fundamental way. if you prefer to event things, I'm fairly sure that Ace and 2k3 are just about on par, and the scripting can close whatever gap there is (albeit in a more complicated way).

I'm not about to make some huge ideological stance about it, though.

e: as far as resources go the conversion's always been pretty simple from my perspective. I fuck around with tilesets more than I care to admit, though, so that might just be my familiarity talking. (I think becoming familiar with all aspects of whatever you're using is pretty much necessary no matter what, though)

Actually, there is an issue with the eventing side of Ace that, while there is a script fix, still makes it a bit hard to work with when used to 2k3.

Event lag.

Because of the FPS that Ace (and to a lesser extent, XP and VX) run at, when too many events are on a map a lot of lag is generated. As I said, there is a script or two that help with this, but it's not a real cure.

As someone who uses events as a third layer, I have to be careful not to use too many of them so that I don't create lag on the map. And it gets worse when used in conjunction with certain event/tile manipulating scripts.

2k/3 runs at what I would say is a better FPS (though this is because it's not as high-resolutioned) and hardly lags unless you have something going on in parallel processes and events that trigger all over the place at the same time. Even in those cases, there are ways around it to help lessen the load (good event usage, of course, and wait commands<3).

That said, I've been using Ace a lot more. And now I've been told of a mysterious script that allows you to use a 16x16 grid... Which is another huge bonus that 2k3 has over the newest makers. 32x32 isn't horrible, but 16x16 will always be my preferred grid.

I will still use 2k3, if only to round out the series for Map Madness and work on older games, but I'll also use the newer software.

Oh, and just an observation that I had when answering an askfm question:

Do you think RM classics only apply to rm2k/3 games or is Nostalgia a huge part of it? Normally Classics are associated with Nostalgia right?
Normally that's true, though there's also the factor of expanding horizons. Back in the day (and I know, I sound old saying that~) we had no scripts to create functionality. We didn't have basic sensibilities to build off - mapping technique, right and wrong ways to create events, whether ABS was better than DBS or CBS and the like. We had to rely on experimentation. Things were created that hadn't been seen before, that hadn't been thought possible due to the limitations of the engine and we worked hard to learn how to do these things without the aid of normal scripting languages.

It was an age of exploration, of experimentation and new discoveries were made with every game shown. We went beyond the limits - it wasn't just about playing games. The nostalgia is often thought to be like that of playing SNES or older consoles - it's not. It wasn't just playing games, you see. It was creating games. It was learning about what actually went into game creation. And the community as a whole was excited to share in the discovery.

That's why those games are lauded more as classics - because they were the building blocks to the rules we now consider just 'there'. "Oh, this is too barren." Many a game went into creating that sensibility. Many a bare map and two-house village. The classics took those points and rose above them, helping to craft better understanding of the eventing side of the engine and that's why they're so loved. Not just for the enjoyment factor of playing them, but because they invented the rules of RMing. They helped to craft the understanding that 'this tile is a wall' and 'two tile high doors are for tile and a half character sets'.

Now don't get me wrong - XP and VX have their classics. The games that showed charm and atmosphere and just how scripts could help create great games, but the hard work had gone before them and so there are less of them. They already had the knowledge the years of 2k and 2k3 had wrought so they didn't have as much to explore, as much to experiment with. Things became easier with scripts. The personal touches were gone - mass used scripts weren't as special as eventing your own systems and the plug-and-play systems ended the exploration into the hows and whys for most people.

It was a different time and community and those who lived in it remember it fondly for many reasons. Those games are the ones that carry those memories of hard work and learning to understand into the future.


It's relevant-ish.