GAMES SEQUELS, STAY THE SAME OR GO DIFFERENT? WHY AND HOW?

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Well I always have the fight with my brother that zelda and mario are the same all the time (in pokemon we agree is the same), me being on the side that they are alike but they have their difference that make them different but he clasify this games in the same shelf of pokemon, less exagerated but still the same shelf.

And that final fantasy is the opposite, but I tell him FF isn't getting any better with the new games, and he did agree. On the other hand we do have cool spin offs of games in the past that have been well received like... metal gear, resident evil 4? I haven't play any game in 5 months and when I did it was the first monkey island, so I don't have many clear examples of new games but I know you could find some.

So should games stay with the core element that made them great or try for discovering new methods. why and how?
I guess if buyers enjoy your gameplay enough to ask for more, the next game doesn't need to change it much, from the industry's perspective.

The 8-bit Mega Man series has kept its core gameplay almost untouched for 20+ years and it's still immensely popular. Dragon Quest is another title in which the gameplay system receives minor changes from one game to another but most entries in the series aren't sequels. FFs aren't sequels to one another either, except for a few titles (X-2, 13-2, AY and DoC).
Changing other features such as 2D to 3D graphics might give an illusion of new and difference, but gameplay wise you're still doing the same things in DQ8 than you were in DQ3.

The best sequel I've ever played is Shadow Hearts: Covenant. You have to fully play both SH and SH:C to truly appreciate the story. The gameplay in SH:C had had minor changes only.

Core gameplay is often a defining aspect to a series, but there's never been any obligation not to change it and try something new.
Well, first of all people need to get into their head that copying a successful game concept isn't a bad thing.

There might be game ABC that I really enjoyed, but I played through it three times already and wish for a game that's exactly like that just with new story and dungeons.

However the most important aspect here is: Have many other games like this already been released the past 1-2 years?
That's the determining factor. If your game concept is unique, everybody loves it and nobody else releases games like that these days, go on and make another game of that concept. You made a popular game but hundreds of people already copied you and the concept got boring for most already? Better think of something new and be a pioneer every time.
A game sequel only needs to be as different from the previous as the concept/story requires. Also you need to be able to determine the core gameplay first rather than just copying a majority of the gameplay and slapping on a story. IE You may be flexible on allowing revival from game to games because it might mess up the logic of your story if you're not- did you change a core gameplay thing? Perhaps, but it wouldn't have felt right if you hadn't! And perhaps it'll feel different but maybe that difference will be positive! Imagine that a logical story is a key part of the series - if you choose to keep revival because you THINK it's what makes this series what it is you've suddenly have a game that feels different - and probably not in a good way.

One of my pet peeves with FFXIII is that if your main character dies it's game over but if your side characters die no biggie - there's no reason for it as you observe that your side characters don't actually die when they lose all their HP. They also switch your POV a lot so why couldn't the character just die and you have your POV switched? FF13-2 handled that better.

Short short version: Industry should probably keep it the same and only change what aids the core experience which may not be what you think it is.
i don't think you can create a rule out of this. It really varies from series to series. For example i can't wait for Dark Souls II which is third game in the series and seems to retain gameplay from previous games. But then there're games like Zelda, which i'd really hope to change things up big time.

if a series goes on too long stagnated, fans might be more shocked from a change. There're countless examples of this. More recent being DmC and Dead Space 3.
I want a sequel to keep what I associate with whatever brand name it has. On the other hand, I do want sequels to improve on their predecessors and improving means change. Generally, I prefer when a sequel changes things for the sake of improvement, but not for the sake of change itself or for trying something new.
It's up to the creator. In my case I went for a sequel that's different from the original in a lot of ways, but still keeping some old things in it. To me it would feel boring to make the same game over again but with a different story or character, it's fun to try out other things.
But yeah, it's not like my first game was popular anyway. In the case of a popular commercial franchise it's different. They know they probably won't sell as many copies if they go with something completely different, so they stick to the same thing. I don't blame them, it bring in the best profit and it's what the fans want: more of the same.
What Crystalgate wrote reminds me of another thing:
If you want to keep your sequel basically the same as the original game, be aware you are not falling into the trap of changing too much.

There are many games that you play and think "Man this game is almost perfect but XYZ ruins it all.", but you often could fix it with just a few minor changes. What often happens however is that the developer will go exactly the opposite way due to all the complaints and change too much about it, which fixes the original concerns but brings a lot of new ones along as well.
That reminds me of something that happened in Kingdom Hearts II.

In the original KH, many people complained about the rather poor platforming. Then KH II came and the worlds were made more or less flat. There was some elevation differences, but nothing that leads to platforming. Now many people instead complained that the worlds are flat and boring. On a first glance it may seem like the fans are never pleased. However, it makes sense when you realize that SquareEnix never did improve the platforming, they just removed it altogether.

Whenever you make changes, think very carefully about what exactly you're accomplishing.

Anyway, I think I should explain more why I prefer changes that's geared towards improvement rather than making something new.

Imagine you make an RPG. You notice that a lot of tactical option simple aren't used by vast majority of the players, be it equipment, skills or special features like formation. Looking at for example skills, you see that 95% of the players only use about half of them (many RPGs have way lower skills existing vs skills actually used ratio.)

What you could do in a sequel is to make various changes to the underused skills. You can improve a skill, you can remove and replace it with something else or you could change other parameters that creates situations where those skills are called for. Even if you only have the same success as before, meaning you only managed to make half of the underused skills useful, you still improved your useful skill ratio to 75%. However, if you instead make a new battle system altogether, it will be much harder to make use of the feedback you got from your old game and it's likely that you again find that the players only use 50% of the skills.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
As an indie developer making freeware games, I don't honestly see the point of making the same game again. That doesn't seem to fit any sort of artistic vision, it's not a meaningful addition to the gaming community, and it doesn't add anything useful to your portfolio. Hell, why not just keep adding new stuff to the first game? It doesn't cost you money to release a patch or even an expansion pack like it would for a real publisher.

As a commercial developer, on the other hand, I totally do understand why you'd do it. If you make something that turns a big profit, you can make it again and turn a big profit again. This is why we have ten Phoenix Wright games and ten Angry Birds games and ten Pokemon games. I don't even know if this is a major problem. It could be cool if they innovated a little, but it's not like I'm not going to enjoy the hell out of any new Phoenix Wright game. All I really wanted was to keep playing Phoenix Wright after it ended.

The thing about Kingdom Hearts 2 platforming is interesting. I definitely felt like the jumping was really awkward in KH1 and it was one of my big complaints about it. Then in KH2 the physics were still the same but didn't bother me any more; I guess I never noticed that the platforming sections were gone. I think I'm okay with taking a system that's busted and just scrapping it in favor of soomething else entirely in some cases. You don't want to do it often, but it's okay to do sometimes.

As a guy who's been running an online game for a long time, there have been a few systems we've had to scrap, including three different equipment crafting systems. We replaced them with better ways of earning equipment. Updating an online game is different from making a sequel in that there's an even stronger negative reaction to any changes, but we still got away with it without driving away too many players (though people do still complain about one of those changes, even five years later).
so basically in both options you need to improve the quality in the next game, sounds pretty legit. As for staying the same the answer is if it is selling or if is unique in that moment, or just because you don't want to change. As for making it different is only if the gameplay changes to fullfill the needs of the story, or the developer wants to show more cool stuff that doesn't happen too much with big titles.

As the how, taking aside the part of just making it better, how would it be?

But for example, with the last zelda I was like a little bit dissapointed since I think the temples were quite easy, and looking back most of zelda had quite simple dungeons once you knew the dynamic in them, despite this there is a zelda game that I hate half of it but love the other, and it was Majoras Mask, hate because it was slow as hell when you had to repeat days and repeat days over and over and I really wished there was a very good improvement of this because the exploration really take another dimension and it was very well planned, were you even had to think a lot in order to get things like hearts and masks and I liked that, and the temples even were they were less, there were a lot more dynamic, with the masks it was a really sweet combination of mario bros, and had their uniqueness among most of the temples of zelda, like the up-down temple that was beautiful and really add a new layer of difficulty, so I agree with Orange, I wish zelda really take big step like when they did Majoras that still had the core elements of the others , thought that game was slow as heck sometimes.

As for changing it, I really null of ideas of how it should change the core element of gameplay and had the audience to have a great time playing it without thinking is another game, taking it as a serious sequel, maybe it is like gourd said, all based on how great is the story.
It depends on whether it's a sequel, or a spinoff.

A sequel should generally carry on the spirit of the original, unless it's KH. The tradition of KH is to break tradition a bit (KH1 to KH2 had the Reaction commands update, KH2 to KH:BBS had team commands).

A spinoff is generally similar characters, or the same general universe as the original, but the rules might be different.

Also... don't do this.
author=LockeZ
As an indie developer making freeware games, I don't honestly see the point of making the same game again. That doesn't seem to fit any sort of artistic vision, it's not a meaningful addition to the gaming community, and it doesn't add anything useful to your portfolio.


I suddenly remembered Alter AILA Genesis and Alter AILA Variant :(
The game's sequel is a massive difference that the reception was a mixed and all that. I guess what I'm saying is that if the First Game is just really good then carrying it over to the Second Game with an entirely different concept does make a difference.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Yeah, the only thing carried over in those games was the plot, right? The gameplay was completely different. And the plot wasn't completely identical either, it was just suspiciously similar. I'm fine with that.

The original Alter AILA felt like Neok wanted to make a story-based game, and kind of ignored the gameplay. The second one felt like he had figured out how to make good gameplay, and wanted to spend time on gameplay instead of story this time around, but instead of making a story-less game he just used a story he already had. That's a legit decision, IMO.
Depends strictly on the series.

If certain concepts and whatnot worked well enough in the initial entry, then keep it the same. If you want to present new elements that both compliment and expand upon the original, by all means, do so. Just make sure the changes aren't too drastic (though, like I said, that's alright as long as it doesn't contradict the intention of the game... unless that's what you're aiming for); unless it's done right, that never ends well.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
That should depend on the kind of story you want to tell. If you choose to keep the sequel close to the original then you have the basis for a good, continuous story. A sequel that differs from the original should also have a different type of story from the original, in my opinion.
The way I see it, games should stay the same way they were designed...

Like for example, if you think about it; the original SNES games loaded up way faster than today's PS3 or Xbox 360 games.

Yeah, you can understand how it takes MORE information for these games; but the concept was simple.

In other words (for those who don't get it), it's like having a standard house with no furniture inside vs a house cluttered with stuff.

The house with NO furniture may be simple, basic, and rather dull... but it still houses the person.

The house with lots of furniture is complex, full of stuff, and rather exciting... but it takes too much to handle.


Or, the way you can look at it is... the original idea was good, but adding onto it isn't really that bad either; it just matters how you handle the additions.

Adding custom wheels to a expensive vehicle is nice and all, but is it really necessary?

That's the way I see it... older and more "original" versions of these games were and are still fun; but I suppose people always want more.

With their "fake achievements" and all...
@LockeZ
Actually I think re-using the same gameplay is valid even in the indie scene. Maybe not on RMN, buuuut look at dungeon crawlers. Dungeon crawlers are all about exploring a non-randomly generated often maze-like dungeon. The gameplay in all is almost exactly identical (except maybe for different traits / skills). There is a good fanbase on this genre, but games like this aren't really developed much anymore. The fanbase has literary already played all existing games of this genre and replaying a dungeon crawler isn't really fun, because you already know the dungeon layout. The wish to have the same concept again and again but with new dungeons to explore is always there in the fanbase, that's why new indie releases of dungeon crawlers are so popular (for example Legend of Grimrock).

You might say "Well why not add more dungeons / floors to the first game instead?", but I think this has mainly to do with the story. Often dungeon crawlers have a very minimalistic but yet interesting story (interesting enough to make you want to see what's on the last floor). Each new story deserves a new game, not everything mashed into one. Plus a new game is also easier to sell than an expansion, especially in the indie scene (also not relevant for RMN, though).
If you have a solid formula that people like, stick with it. For Eample, Mega Man has been the same since the 1980s, but it still is very popular. Mario keeps the same stuff, but adds innovation along with it. Reusing the same core gameplay can be a good thing and a bad thing. In most cases this is good because people are going to remember how the previous game played and will be able to easily pick up the gameplay of the sequel. Some of the best examples are Super Mario Galaxy 2 /Kingdom Hearts 2/Final Fantasy X-2. Although the gameplay was the same, they added enough innovation, content, and gameplay fixes to keep it fresh. Every sequel I've played plays just like its predecessor, but new things and updated gameplay is what keeps it from becoming an extension or slight addition. Nobody wants a game that plays completely different with every entry.

However, It strictly depends on what the series is. Not all sequels will be the same, some will continue a story, while others may go in a totally different direction.
Well pretty much following with everyone opinion, so don' have too much to say n.n' but that something interesting XBuster, just for the fact that thinking about mario games, the change from Super Mario World to Super Mario 64, it was a huge spin off, you have life bar, you have water meter as well, you don't have many level but stages were you have to find the stars instead of finishing the level, you have like 15 syle of jumps, so the core element really change there, more in the future they went trying again those aspect like finishing the level like you said, but M64 was a great spin off because few people take at as a spin off, because it still about Mario jumping on funny worlds.
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