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PSA: THE GPL/LGPL LICENSES AND YOU
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darkwraith007
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CloseTLDR: Read it and weep. Or just read it as 'too many games violating GPL and LGPL'. Cut that crap out or get called out as selfish thieving bastards. Learn to properly attribute your scripts/code/stuff so you don't incur the wrath (and possible legal ramifications) in the future. This goes double for artwork, but I'll specifically deal with scripting/code in this post.
I've been exploring the coding/scripting of several popular (and hidden gems) RM2K3 and RMXP games lately. I'm a budding game designer inspired by the fantastic and awe-inspiring work that the RM community has released (for free!).
Unfortunately, I have noticed a very disturbing trend in use of RGSS coding and scripts that are specifically licensed under the GPL or LGPL licenses. For those that don't know what they are, feel free to follow the links.
There are many well-documented cases of large companies (Microsoft, Cisco, and others) that blatantly ignore the provisions of these licenses for their own commercial gain/benefit. They've faced legal action and have paid the price for their transgressions (although they seem unconcerned enough to have repeated violations without learning from the past).
Being the nature of the majority of RM games being 'freeware', the commercial aspect of these games is not in question. However, I've personally dissected the despicable 'commercial' RM games that do use LGPL and GPL-sourced codes/scripts in blatant violation of those licenses without any attribution, source code availability, or even a mention in the readme! Some of the worst offenders of these are (almost all) of the commercial games present on the 'Amaranth Games' website and specifically the 'Aveyond' series of games. Other games on that AG portal also violate these provisions, but the Aveyond series is the most well-known from that site.
In short, the GPL is very restrictive of commercial use of any of the code while the LGPL permits commercial use under certain conditions. One of these conditions is to provide the unedited and full version of the accompanying license and proper attribution for the source code that was used. That isn't asking much, is it? You used it completely free so just attribute it and provide a copy of the license (or if you're keeping file size down, a link to where it can be viewed/downloaded).
Many games across the entire RM community are guilty of this practice. It is trivial to see and know everything that goes on in RM games unless you care to do custom encryption (and even that can be broken fairly easily by certain people if needed).
Budding game developers, don't fall victim to this. The GPL and LGPL are there for the benefit of the entire open-source community. If you use codes/scripts/artwork from other people, then make sure you have permission to do so and ATTRIBUTE properly!
I'm one of you and I would love to see this community grow even further into a wonderful place to learn game development and bring about a new golden age for video games! We cannot fall into the traps of our predecessors and give in to temptation/greed/lethargy by ignoring the need for proper documentation/attribution of what we use from other sources.
That is all. If this is supposed to go into another thread, then feel free to move it there.
EDIT: Those that use 'game rips' as in sprites/artwork from other games. Go DIAFF, all of you. It is despicable for you to do such a thing. Come up with your own ideas or kindly GTFO. We don't need any more 'copyright infringement' non-parody games flooding the games list. If you lack the creativity for your own original ideas and world-building, then perhaps you should keep your games to yourself. If you can create your own unique variation on that material and make it distinct enough to not look like a blatant clone, more power to you. Audio remixes are a notable exception if they're done well, similar to nearly all the remixes at OCRemix.
I've been exploring the coding/scripting of several popular (and hidden gems) RM2K3 and RMXP games lately. I'm a budding game designer inspired by the fantastic and awe-inspiring work that the RM community has released (for free!).
Unfortunately, I have noticed a very disturbing trend in use of RGSS coding and scripts that are specifically licensed under the GPL or LGPL licenses. For those that don't know what they are, feel free to follow the links.
There are many well-documented cases of large companies (Microsoft, Cisco, and others) that blatantly ignore the provisions of these licenses for their own commercial gain/benefit. They've faced legal action and have paid the price for their transgressions (although they seem unconcerned enough to have repeated violations without learning from the past).
Being the nature of the majority of RM games being 'freeware', the commercial aspect of these games is not in question. However, I've personally dissected the despicable 'commercial' RM games that do use LGPL and GPL-sourced codes/scripts in blatant violation of those licenses without any attribution, source code availability, or even a mention in the readme! Some of the worst offenders of these are (almost all) of the commercial games present on the 'Amaranth Games' website and specifically the 'Aveyond' series of games. Other games on that AG portal also violate these provisions, but the Aveyond series is the most well-known from that site.
In short, the GPL is very restrictive of commercial use of any of the code while the LGPL permits commercial use under certain conditions. One of these conditions is to provide the unedited and full version of the accompanying license and proper attribution for the source code that was used. That isn't asking much, is it? You used it completely free so just attribute it and provide a copy of the license (or if you're keeping file size down, a link to where it can be viewed/downloaded).
Many games across the entire RM community are guilty of this practice. It is trivial to see and know everything that goes on in RM games unless you care to do custom encryption (and even that can be broken fairly easily by certain people if needed).
Budding game developers, don't fall victim to this. The GPL and LGPL are there for the benefit of the entire open-source community. If you use codes/scripts/artwork from other people, then make sure you have permission to do so and ATTRIBUTE properly!
I'm one of you and I would love to see this community grow even further into a wonderful place to learn game development and bring about a new golden age for video games! We cannot fall into the traps of our predecessors and give in to temptation/greed/lethargy by ignoring the need for proper documentation/attribution of what we use from other sources.
That is all. If this is supposed to go into another thread, then feel free to move it there.
EDIT: Those that use 'game rips' as in sprites/artwork from other games. Go DIAFF, all of you. It is despicable for you to do such a thing. Come up with your own ideas or kindly GTFO. We don't need any more 'copyright infringement' non-parody games flooding the games list. If you lack the creativity for your own original ideas and world-building, then perhaps you should keep your games to yourself. If you can create your own unique variation on that material and make it distinct enough to not look like a blatant clone, more power to you. Audio remixes are a notable exception if they're done well, similar to nearly all the remixes at OCRemix.
TheNecromancer
3160
How is this topic a Help Request or a Resource? If you can't figure out how to use a forum then kindly GTFO.
I don't really care about the script part, because I won't be using them much. Certainly not for commercial use. Actually, I'd never use any RM engine for a commercial game. If someone is making money off it, then I'd totally agree. Freeware, who cares.
But this...you post a whole bunch of gibber-jabber about ethics of using code, say you won't talk about graphics, then tack on a flaming comment at the end.
Anyways, the whole RM scene wouldn't have thrived if nobody could use ripped graphics. You'd end up with 10's of 1000's of RTP adventures, and that would be a fate worse than death. A person does NOT need to be a graphic artist to make amateur games for free in their spare time. And it certainly does NOT mean that if they do rip gfx, they need to keep them off the internet.
If a person doesn't have the creativity or talent to make their own resources, then keeping to themselves is not the way to develop those skills. The way to develop those skills is to work with what you can do and use existing resources to fill in the rest. That way you can have something that actually looks good and more unique than RTP. You develop the skills needed to put together a project, without having to spend years learning to sprite or make music. Then you show your work to other people who will comment and help you get better.
This is a hobby for most. It's about having fun. Not everybody has the ability to even be good at drawing or music composition, I guess they should give up on game design according to you. Or everybody use the same public domain resources. We don't need anymore shitty RTP games flooding the games list.
Nobody really cares what you think about rips, bro. You're about 15 years too late anyway.
I don't really care about the script part, because I won't be using them much. Certainly not for commercial use. Actually, I'd never use any RM engine for a commercial game. If someone is making money off it, then I'd totally agree. Freeware, who cares.
Those that use 'game rips' as in sprites/artwork from other games. Go DIAFF, all of you. It is despicable for you to do such a thing. Come up with your own ideas or kindly GTFO. We don't need any more 'copyright infringement' non-parody games flooding the games list. If you lack the creativity for your own original ideas and world-building, then perhaps you should keep your games to yourself.
But this...you post a whole bunch of gibber-jabber about ethics of using code, say you won't talk about graphics, then tack on a flaming comment at the end.
Anyways, the whole RM scene wouldn't have thrived if nobody could use ripped graphics. You'd end up with 10's of 1000's of RTP adventures, and that would be a fate worse than death. A person does NOT need to be a graphic artist to make amateur games for free in their spare time. And it certainly does NOT mean that if they do rip gfx, they need to keep them off the internet.
If a person doesn't have the creativity or talent to make their own resources, then keeping to themselves is not the way to develop those skills. The way to develop those skills is to work with what you can do and use existing resources to fill in the rest. That way you can have something that actually looks good and more unique than RTP. You develop the skills needed to put together a project, without having to spend years learning to sprite or make music. Then you show your work to other people who will comment and help you get better.
This is a hobby for most. It's about having fun. Not everybody has the ability to even be good at drawing or music composition, I guess they should give up on game design according to you. Or everybody use the same public domain resources. We don't need anymore shitty RTP games flooding the games list.
Nobody really cares what you think about rips, bro. You're about 15 years too late anyway.
papasan96
1021
While I agree with you that sources of scripts, graphics etc. should be credited, your edit is, as Link says, way too harsh. I'm personally not that keen on fan games but lots of people enjoy them and to dismiss them all as criminal is ridiculous. A free game using decades-old graphics or music harms no-one.
Why exactly does this bother you so much? Are you a copyright lawyer or were your parents murdered by a rogue copyright thief? And I don't think you have the right to come here and post, a few days after joining, a diatribe telling others to GTFO of their own hobby.
Ah, I understand! You work for Microsoft, am I right?
Why exactly does this bother you so much? Are you a copyright lawyer or were your parents murdered by a rogue copyright thief? And I don't think you have the right to come here and post, a few days after joining, a diatribe telling others to GTFO of their own hobby.
Ah, I understand! You work for Microsoft, am I right?
Shinan
4314
author=Link_2112
How is this topic a Help Request or a Resource? If you can't figure out how to use a forum then kindly GTFO.
Well it is kind of a request. A request not to be illegal when making games.
Could it be possible that the commercial game developers... Uhm... asked permission to be closed-source by the original script creators (maybe before the script creators themselves released the scripts under open source licenses?).
But yeah it always gets more complicated when money is involved and all of these things are pretty reprehensible. But sometimes it's just ignorance also and all it takes is a friendly reminder to the creator. Many commercial RM developers were hobbyists for the longest time and just sort of fell into making the games commercial without all of the knowledge.
And speaking of hobbyists, which is what most of us are. For us I'd say that there's no point in being overly strict about things. Oftentimes when working on a game on and off for many years it's difficult to even track down the proper attributions for certain things inside a game (personally I used a lot of CC-A sound effects on a project and in the end I had trouble finding exactly whose and which effects I used).
Of course it is always better to attribute all the things to the correct people but as long as it's amateur projects I think it's fair to give them a pass. (or ignore those projects. There's plenty of projects with proper attribution and/or made entirely by a few people)
"DIAFF"? Seriously kid, grow up. This kind of inflammatory language isn't useful, needed or constructive. (and yeah, you are about 12 years too late for this discussion). Also, you aren't the arbiter of who and who doesn't need to GTFO (I am that arbiter).
That being said, if I ever release a game in the new engines and use scripts, I'll try to remember to properly attribute my sources.
That being said, if I ever release a game in the new engines and use scripts, I'll try to remember to properly attribute my sources.
ubon
66
you know I am with you vis a vis the way a lot of commercial projects play fast and loose with the responsibilities inherent in making a game for profit, either out of ignorance or deliberate planning (hinging on the hope that the fly-by-night nature of most rpg maker commercial products will protect them from discovery and reprisal)
but honestly this is maybe the dumbest and angriest way to get the word out about something I've ever seen
but honestly this is maybe the dumbest and angriest way to get the word out about something I've ever seen
From what I've seen of the commercial side of RM, most people are responsible with keeping track of where their resources come from and whether they have permission to use them or not.
As a content creator (graphical resources) I've been contacted many a time by people who wanted to use my edits (and otherwise) in their commercial games and I tell the the same thing each time - as long as they bought Ace (or the engine the graphical edits are from) I don't mind. I don't make my resources for profit, but for my own amusement/use and I don't mind sharing.
A lot of scripters do the same, allowing people to use their scripts for free - and there are more than a few who allow commercial games to use them too! Yes, as someone who has been looking into commercial creation, I've actually paid attention to who does and does not allow use of their creations for free - as long as credit is given.
And a lot of people do that. A growing number.
Now, that's not to say the there aren't people who take and use and try to pass resources off as either theirs or allowed, but those are usually caught out when they try to sell their product (or show it off, even, in the case of a few people who 're-scripted' scripts but left certain identifying aspects within the scripts) and shamed by the community.
The RM community is quite adamant about not stealing from fellows-in-arms, so much so that when someone is called out for theft, they're usually regarded suspiciously for quite a while afterwards and watched each time they release a new game.
As for graphics when it comes to rips and the like? As long as there's no intent to sell the product, who does it harm? We're not making money, we're sharing the love of older games that newer generations may know nothing about and it just serves as a hobby. It's like fanfiction - there's going to be usage of others' creations, but we all know we didn't make Harry Potter up or create the characters of Final Fantasy 7 or draw those chips from Pokemon or compose that song by Uematsu.
Giving credit should be enough. No need to take the blocks that we use to build our leggo games with when we're not trying to sell them to art galleries.
As a content creator (graphical resources) I've been contacted many a time by people who wanted to use my edits (and otherwise) in their commercial games and I tell the the same thing each time - as long as they bought Ace (or the engine the graphical edits are from) I don't mind. I don't make my resources for profit, but for my own amusement/use and I don't mind sharing.
A lot of scripters do the same, allowing people to use their scripts for free - and there are more than a few who allow commercial games to use them too! Yes, as someone who has been looking into commercial creation, I've actually paid attention to who does and does not allow use of their creations for free - as long as credit is given.
And a lot of people do that. A growing number.
Now, that's not to say the there aren't people who take and use and try to pass resources off as either theirs or allowed, but those are usually caught out when they try to sell their product (or show it off, even, in the case of a few people who 're-scripted' scripts but left certain identifying aspects within the scripts) and shamed by the community.
The RM community is quite adamant about not stealing from fellows-in-arms, so much so that when someone is called out for theft, they're usually regarded suspiciously for quite a while afterwards and watched each time they release a new game.
As for graphics when it comes to rips and the like? As long as there's no intent to sell the product, who does it harm? We're not making money, we're sharing the love of older games that newer generations may know nothing about and it just serves as a hobby. It's like fanfiction - there's going to be usage of others' creations, but we all know we didn't make Harry Potter up or create the characters of Final Fantasy 7 or draw those chips from Pokemon or compose that song by Uematsu.
Giving credit should be enough. No need to take the blocks that we use to build our leggo games with when we're not trying to sell them to art galleries.
author=LibertyThe problem here is a bit more nuanced than that. The problem this thread is addressing is the widespread use of GPL/LPGPL code in commercial games. Applications that use the GPL are legally required to be released open source.
From what I've seen of the commercial side of RM, most people are responsible with keeping track of where their resources come from and whether they have permission to use them or not.
As a content creator (graphical resources) I've been contacted many a time by people who wanted to use my edits (and otherwise) in their commercial games and I tell the the same thing each time - as long as they bought Ace (or the engine the graphical edits are from) I don't mind. I don't make my resources for profit, but for my own amusement/use and I don't mind sharing.
A lot of scripters do the same, allowing people to use their scripts for free - and there are more than a few who allow commercial games to use them too! Yes, as someone who has been looking into commercial creation, I've actually paid attention to who does and does not allow use of their creations for free - as long as credit is given.
And a lot of people do that. A growing number.
Now, that's not to say the there aren't people who take and use and try to pass resources off as either theirs or allowed, but those are usually caught out when they try to sell their product (or show it off, even, in the case of a few people who 're-scripted' scripts but left certain identifying aspects within the scripts) and shamed by the community.
The RM community is quite adamant about not stealing from fellows-in-arms, so much so that when someone is called out for theft, they're usually regarded suspiciously for quite a while afterwards and watched each time they release a new game.
As for graphics when it comes to rips and the like? As long as there's no intent to sell the product, who does it harm? We're not making money, we're sharing the love of older games that newer generations may know nothing about and it just serves as a hobby. It's like fanfiction - there's going to be usage of others' creations, but we all know we didn't make Harry Potter up or create the characters of Final Fantasy 7 or draw those chips from Pokemon or compose that song by Uematsu.
Giving credit should be enough. No need to take the blocks that we use to build our leggo games with when we're not trying to sell them to art galleries.
Ah, that's what I get for staying up all night and not reading it fully. >.<;
Thanks for pointing that out, Sail!
That said, I tend to just accredit as asked by the creator. If they ask for a mention in a read-me with a link back to the script, do that. It's an easy enough thing to do. No need for legalese.
But as to the rest with the graphics and such, see my above post.
Thanks for pointing that out, Sail!
That said, I tend to just accredit as asked by the creator. If they ask for a mention in a read-me with a link back to the script, do that. It's an easy enough thing to do. No need for legalese.
But as to the rest with the graphics and such, see my above post.
ubon
66
yeah, usually that's enough. it's very important to develop at least a little knowledge of the legalese when you start dealing with money, though, because that's when the consequences for not knowing about them get heavy. I'm willing to bet that a lot of people who've violated this GPL stuff did it just because they never bothered to read up on it, and that's not the kind of excuse that can fly.
True. When money comes into the picture you have to be very careful how you handle things like other's content (even if it were made for you or you have permission to use it).
As hobbyists it's not just a case of 'oh, I'll just add a name to the credits' as per usual. Once money is involved it stops being a hobby and becomes a business so you have to act like it's one and make sure everything is in order.
As hobbyists it's not just a case of 'oh, I'll just add a name to the credits' as per usual. Once money is involved it stops being a hobby and becomes a business so you have to act like it's one and make sure everything is in order.
Heh; I was with you until the last paragraph, at which point I guess your little brother snatched they keyboard away from you or something... Seriously, that little 'preemptive" rant of yours kind of defeats your whole post, doesn't it? I mean, if you're going to belittle people for not coming up with their own ideas - for not making their own resources, then the same goes for using 3rd party resources, even if done with permission, doesn't it? Gee, why stop there? Real men, mak gams with their own engines only. No! their own scripting languages! xD And how is that audio remixes get a free pass? Is copyright except from audio files? Go figure!
Edit: @Mawk: Aww, don't spoil my fun. :(
Edit: @Mawk: Aww, don't spoil my fun. :(
When developing a game I keep track of all my sources in
a Word document. That way when I write my credits I
can't forget to include anyone who I have used material
from.
People like Yanfly, etc... are really cool for proving their
materials to the community. I think crediting them is the least
I can do for all their hard work.
Shinan
4314
Sometimes I also wonder if the people who are creating the resources know what license they are using. It seems that occasionally licenses are just slapped on without thinking much about the ramifications of the license.
Of course I guess it is mostly in game creators (who are clueless as usually) I've noticed this. People throw up a CC-license on their game. Even though their game is using resources that clearly prohibits any CC-license (like using rips or other copyrighted material).
But I sort of wonder if some script creators also just copy-paste the legalese license they've seen in other scripts without thinking about what licenses they're actually putting on their work.
Of course I guess it is mostly in game creators (who are clueless as usually) I've noticed this. People throw up a CC-license on their game. Even though their game is using resources that clearly prohibits any CC-license (like using rips or other copyrighted material).
But I sort of wonder if some script creators also just copy-paste the legalese license they've seen in other scripts without thinking about what licenses they're actually putting on their work.
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