WHAT DO YOU CALL A "GREAT MARIO LEVEL"?

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Seiromem
I would have more makerscore If I did things.
6375
I'm in the process of making my second Mario game, and have realized I had several amazing levels, yet plenty of terrible ones in my first one. I'm trying to figure out what makes them good and what makes them bad.
What do you feel makes a Mario level good and bad?
Is it the Graphics, the amount of enemies, the music?
Even the name?
What about it made it amazing or terrible, or both?
The topic title fooled me... I had such a great name for a mario level that I came up with just for this, and then I read the post, and it's not about what to call a great Mario level. Why would you do this to me?
1. Secrets
2. Multiple paths to exit
3. Feels "fast paced" rather than forcing the player to solve a stupid jump puzzle.
There aren't really any concrete rules of what makes a "great" level, but the most common mistake I see (especially in SMBX levels) is levels that are really, really long. It's amazing how many designers forget (or ignore) the fact that SMBX limits you to one checkpoint per level.
One thing I've often noticed in ROM hacks and SMBX levels is them lacking themes.

Let's take the desert world in SMB 3 as an example. There are multiple levels there with the desert theme. However, if you look at the maps, you should see that each of those levels while sharing the desert theme also has a unique theme on their own. Sometimes the theme is easily described, such as the level with multiple mini pyramids. Other times the theme is a type of obstacle that's repeated multiple times. Basically, the levels don't look like random platforming challenges stitched together.

This says nothing about challenges or such, but I feel that this part is what many people overlook.
A good level is challenging without being overwhelming.
There should be variety in visuals and obstacles, but there should also be consistency. One solution is to use an obstacle or gimmick a few times with variation.
Secrets are important. They reward the player for being clever or skillful. Make them tricky to find or reach, but not impossible. For example, put invisible blocks in conspicuous rather than arbitrary locations.
Secrets can also include alternate routes and hidden rooms. Those are usually good places to hide secret exits or stars, or helpful powerups. You should usually make it clear that these are not part of the normal path, otherwise they don't seem particularly special. If a player finds a secret area and doesn't realize it's a secret area, you probably did it wrong.
Enemies are not always necessary, but I think most levels should have them. It's better to place a few enemies in the right spots than a ton of enemies everywhere. And don't always put enemies in the worst place for the player to deal with them; save that for the really tough levels.
Lastly, platforming levels should not be too long or confusing. The player should be able to tell which way they need to move, unless the level is a maze; in that case, there should at least be some indication of how to reach the goal, with very few situations requiring trial and error.
All the things that make it "hard" make it bad.

1. Lack of powerups
2. Lack of useful variety of powerups (i.e. don't keep providing only a fire flower when the situation clearly calls for a racoon or cape)
3. Lack of usable platforms (dealing with multiple enemies is a challenge, doing it while having to jump from platform to platform, while also having a time limit is annoying)
4. Making levels too long with no halfway points.

In short, much of what's on the download list I've played and discarded because it didn't provide enough resources to deal with the issues supposedly making the game challenging. I trashed my SMBX after playing a series of crummy games.

halibabica
RMN's Official Reviewmonger
16873
from bulmabriefs144
I trashed my SMBX after playing a series of crummy games.

Yes, because playing a few bad games warrants the disregard of an entire engine. I downloaded RM2K3, played about three games with it, and they all sucked so I uninstalled it.

Anyway, I don't really agree with you saying hard = bad. The things you listed are indeed pretty aggravating, but I'd file all four of them under 'fake difficulty'. There's a reason commercial Mario games don't pull that crap (at least not always, heh).

But there's nothing wrong with a game being a bit of a challenge. I'm one of those developers who thinks games are too soft on players these days. As long as the challenge is fair, the player can only get upset at their inability to meet it, not the design of the challenge itself.
Ratty524
The 524 is for 524 Stone Crabs
12986
I just wanted to mention something to SMBX level designers as I am doing the same thing with a SMB1 mini-project I've got going on: Make EVERY PIECE of the screen count for something.

Don't just slap in stuff because you can. Think of how whatever block/npc you place affects the gameplay. Let's take a look at the first level of SMB1:

http://ian-albert.com/games/super_mario_bros_maps/mario-1-1.gif
(I'm using a link because the image is huge)

It's the first, and easiest level in the game. It takes about a minute to beat it if you are not terrible, but look at how much stuff there is to DO in this level. Platforms are not just straight lines where you hold right to win, there are pipes and pits that serve to break it up. Even better is that section with the pyramid-shaped blocks. The one to the left is the first one you'll encounter, and falling into that warns you of the potential consequences for messing up your jumps, and the structure that follows actually has a pit leading to your death. That's called DESIGN. Every space in this level is used for something and it actually has a meaning behind it.
When you design a Mario level, you have to ask yourself why you're even creating a level. Each level should have an intended purpose, whether it is to show off a new enemy, obstacle, or gimmick.

Generally speaking, platforming levels are nothing more than linear paths taking you from point A to point B. It is the game designer's job to maintain the illusion that the level is anything but linear. Secrets and multiple paths are a good way to accomplish such a goal.

When it comes to enemy placement, be mindful of where you put them. Improper placement can slow down a level or even kill the forward progression. Proper placement allows the enemy to serve as an obstacle that the player can easily dodge and vault over.

Anything that artificially draws out the duration of the level or needlessly slows down the player detracts from the gameplay experience. Slowdowns should be kept to a minimum.

As for the music, it compliments the atmosphere of the level and sets the mood the player will be in. Music can be very important. I remember, when I was much younger, replaying certain sections in games just so I could hear a particular musical track. It really helps set a good experience.
author=halibabica
from bulmabriefs144
I trashed my SMBX after playing a series of crummy games.
Yes, because playing a few bad games warrants the disregard of an entire engine. I downloaded RM2K3, played about three games with it, and they all sucked so I uninstalled it.

Anyway, I don't really agree with you saying hard = bad. The things you listed are indeed pretty aggravating, but I'd file all four of them under 'fake difficulty'. There's a reason commercial Mario games don't pull that crap (at least not always, heh).

But there's nothing wrong with a game being a bit of a challenge. I'm one of those developers who thinks games are too soft on players these days. As long as the challenge is fair, the player can only get upset at their inability to meet it, not the design of the challenge itself.

Why do people always assume I'm whining? I played most of the (completed) games here actually, but yea that was awhile back. I had the following beefs.

1. I couldn't figure out how to work it myself. Not the teleports, not the mapping (I couldn't figure out how to make long screens). This was the major reason, in order to have a game, I had to rework someone else's game. Because being a user friendly maker is one reason to keep a maker even if the games people make suck.
*1.5. Btw, I typically have to disable my antivirus because it declares it a virus and removes it immediately on install.
2. I'd have liked to see someone build an actual plot. I mean, c'mon we have the ability to run events, so why not have more talking than "I'm sorry but the princess is in another castle." We had the apparent backstory listed for most games in their page, but nothing there to support it.
3. I've played SM1, SMB2, SMB3, and SMW (and beaten most of the later ones). I have a general sense of how long each level is, and how hard it is. The typical game here was too long in terms of level without the sense of a break. I'd like more levels, not longer ones.
4. Difficulty is fine, no, I've played original SMB series and even some of Lost Levels. Fake difficulty is not. The most frustrating level I remember of SMBX was someone designing a water puzzle mid-level that you had to get through rather than around, and had fish and squid in a closed space but no fire flowers until the very end of the game. So, no I never meant hard = bad. I meant hard, without any way of dealing with the difficulty = bad.
5. A good game is like a puzzle. It's hard, definitely, but all the pieces are present to solve it. Example, SMB2 has pretty much every boss give you the tools to defeat him, if you can dodge them first. A given room ought to give at least some powerup, even if it's almost the wrong one for the job (if only one enemy can be frozen by the ice flower, but you can kick the cube at the others, or jump past them using it as a block, you have challenge while still maintaining winnability).

In short, a Great Mario Level is difficult, but finishable even if you are small Mario, and only an average player. But has added dimensions for people with fire flower or racoon (secret rooms with much greater challenge, one-ups, etc). Example, I managed 2-2 of SMB with no hits and small mario (I'm okay at it, but I never was that serious a Mario player) but got beaten at 2-3 by fish while I was popping a treasure for a mushroom.
1. I couldn't figure out how to work it myself. Not the teleports, not the mapping (I couldn't figure out how to make long screens). This was the major reason, in order to have a game, I had to rework someone else's game. Because being a user friendly maker is one reason to keep a maker even if the games people make suck.

It's actually pretty simple, it's just different than most engines. Just because you couldn't figure it out, or ask for help or even look at the help file, that doesn't mean it's not user friendly. As a user, you are just lazy.

You use the arrow keys to move the screen in order to make longer maps.

For teleports, you set the options(Facing Down and Entrance), put down the entrance. Then set the options for the exits(Facing Down and Exit), and put it down. It's not that hard.

If someone opens Gamemaker, and they can't figure it out, does that mean it's not user friendly? By that logic almost everything is not user friendly. "I couldn't figure out to drive stick, why can't cars be more user friendly!" "I don't get Calculus at all..." You get the point.
halibabica
RMN's Official Reviewmonger
16873
Some things about SMBX are more intuitive than others. It comes with the help manual, and that's enough to get you started, but some of its more advanced features are almost backwards. I've been meaning to write more tutorials about it.

Still, yeah, it can be hard to work with at times (no undo, argh!).
author=Link_2112
1. I couldn't figure out how to work it myself. Not the teleports, not the mapping (I couldn't figure out how to make long screens). This was the major reason, in order to have a game, I had to rework someone else's game. Because being a user friendly maker is one reason to keep a maker even if the games people make suck.
It's actually pretty simple, it's just different than most engines. Just because you couldn't figure it out, or ask for help or even look at the help file, that doesn't mean it's not user friendly. As a user, you are just lazy.

You use the arrow keys to move the screen in order to make longer maps.

For teleports, you set the options(Facing Down and Entrance), put down the entrance. Then set the options for the exits(Facing Down and Exit), and put it down. It's not that hard.

If someone opens Gamemaker, and they can't figure it out, does that mean it's not user friendly? By that logic almost everything is not user friendly. "I couldn't figure out to drive stick, why can't cars be more user friendly!" "I don't get Calculus at all..." You get the point.


There was something or other that I tried to run but my online only filters through Firefox due to my proxy settings. That was probably the help file.

Well, Calculus I buy, but there's alot that I learn pretty quickly, given enough time. The point is, I learn by trial and error/intuition, and there was a great deal that wasn't intuitive and wasn't inclined toward just grinding away (you actually had to get why it worked the way it did). Stuff like that is such that the average no-talent person like me can't just pull crazy all-nighters to figure out.

I'm perfectly willing to work 14+ hours on a game to do some code, I've a different kind of laziness. If a program doesn't "think like me" so to speak, I usually stop messing with it after awhile. Considering I did all kinds of things with my mouse and never figured out that screen scroll, I'd say that qualifies.

Ratty524
The 524 is for 524 Stone Crabs
12986
author=bulmabriefs144
Well, Calculus I buy, but there's alot that I learn pretty quickly, given enough time. The point is, I learn by trial and error/intuition, and there was a great deal that wasn't intuitive and wasn't inclined toward just grinding away (you actually had to get why it worked the way it did). Stuff like that is such that the average no-talent person like me can't just pull crazy all-nighters to figure out.

I figured out how to extend the screen, place npcs/blocks/players, and even add pipe warp events all on my own within the first day I tried SMBX, not even pulling an all-nighter. Aside from a few things, the editor very obviously points out what does what. Your argument is invalid.
I've always wanted to share my personal thoughts on a good Mario level, and I guess now's my chance!

.Make it challenging, but not overly challenging. Mario levels are at their most satisfying when they're introducing a significantly creative and attentive design.

.Make the length just right; not too long, but not too short. I'd say a level around 2-3 minutes is long enough. Make it a bit longer if you want, but ONLY if you introduce enough good design and interesting concepts to justify the long length.

.TAKE EVERYONE'S SKILL LEVEL INTO ACCOUNT. Or, more specifically, the casual player's skill level. If you're aiming for a game that everyone can play, don't make the design overly complex and hard. This kinda overlaps with my first point, but that solely dealt with difficulty. I feel this point is slightly broader.

Thoughts from your friendly favorite cracker-eater, everybody.
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