BOARD GAMES AND VIDEO GAMES

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If you watch the PATV show Extra Credits, this week's show makes an interesting case for why board games should be studied when making a video game:

Check it out: A Case For Board Games
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I like Extra Credits a lot, but this one was pretty weak, especially for people making single player games. No real insight, just instructions to "go play board games and see what you can learn." And interpersonal interaction is something that single-player games have no part of, while mechanics obfuscation is a major and inescapable part of how they create challenges.

It's misleading to say that board games tell you exactly how they work in the rule book, if nothing else. You don't know exactly what's going to happen because the enemy AI in a board game is 100% obfuscated, far moreso than in a video game.



Anyone who likes making games should watch the hell out of Extra Credits though because those guys are fucking geniuses. You don't have to watch them in order, but the very first episode is probably one of the best ones for an RPG Maker user.
Can you conjure up an actual thought instead of linking to a video and leaving it at that? I have my gripes with GD&T but at least most topics have actual ideas behind them.
Ratty524
The 524 is for 524 Stone Crabs
12986
author=Darken
Can you conjure up an actual thought instead of linking to a video and leaving it at that? I have my gripes with GD&T but at least most topics have actual ideas behind them.

This. It's way more interesting to here your opinion on the matter and comment on it. That's kind of how discussion/arguments work.

Something else to consider about board games is that many of them, especially popular ones like Monopoly or Life, have a higher factor of luck than they do skill. This is obviously deterrent for single player or competitive multiplayer games, as there is a loss of satisfaction for winning a game based on luck. With that said, it's really important to figure out what audience you want to draw with your game. The gamble type of system works well with casual audiences, for instance, but not so much with others.
I think I learned more about making good games from being a game master in Pen & Paper RPGs (and designing or altering rulesets) than I ever learned from board games.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
for the sake of the discussion here I'm pretty sure those qualify as board games

I mean they do have obvious differences from other board games, but they have every quality of board games that the video is saying you should look at and learn from. (Plus RPG mechanics and continuous play over multiple sessions, which are important things to learn about. So it makes sense that they'd teach you more than other board games.)
I've previously commented on RMN that people should be taking more stuff from board games, but I said that basically from a mechanical perspective (considering the proportion of games here with turn-based or menu-based combat).

Most importantly, familiarity with a variety of games expands your toolbox of mechanics. Getting some of that from video games doesn't hurt, but you're going to encounter a broader set of basic mechanics faster in board games.

Second, board games can't get away with not making their mechanics clear, which I generally consider a lazy habit that makes turn/menu-based games less fun.

... I would make a third point about board-game prototyping being handy but I guess that's a bit off-topic.
author=LockeZ
I like Extra Credits a lot, but this one was pretty weak, especially for people making single player games. No real insight, just instructions to "go play board games and see what you can learn."

On the other hand what they explicitly said was that boardgame rules were the important thing to consider. How simple rules lead to interesting mechanics. And that's what boardgames can teach video game design. Starting out with a fairly simple ruleset and seeing how the game works for that.

Also with the rise of co-op boardgaming there's plenty of interesting rules for game AI and asymmetrical systems.

Boardgames will never be able to do all the math that computers can do but oftentimes it's better to actually be able to wrap your head around some of the math involved than... I don't know. Taking an existing system and fudging numbers without knowing what exactly they mean.

(For example "+4% fire resistance". That really means nothing. Most of the time.)
author=LockeZ
for the sake of the discussion here I'm pretty sure those qualify as board games

I mean they do have obvious differences from other board games, but they have every quality of board games that the video is saying you should look at and learn from. (Plus RPG mechanics and continuous play over multiple sessions, which are important things to learn about. So it makes sense that they'd teach you more than other board games.)
Well yes you are right, they are somewhat board games too. Though if the reasoning is "Board games try to be simple and fun and that's what you should try when making video games too", then you could argue that Pen & Paper rulesets are often much more complex and harder to understand than at least most JRPGs.


Thread also makes me think of Unlimited Saga, which is actually one of my most favorite games particularly because it feels more like a board game, yet is generally hated by others.
author=RyaReisender
Well yes you are right, they are somewhat board games too. Though if the reasoning is "Board games try to be simple and fun and that's what you should try when making video games too", then you could argue that Pen & Paper rulesets are often much more complex and harder to understand than at least most JRPGs.


Most JRPGs are as equally complex, if not more; however, they get to obfuscate most of the rules, so they look simpler - you don't need to worry about the math behind the attacks, they just happen, but the actual math going on is (generally) more complex than (let's say) D&D3.5's roll a d20, compare it against armor value, and then roll 2d6 damage if you 'hit'.
Dunno, many JRPG are just "Damage = Attack-Defense(+-20%)". Also the character progression is linear. D&D has a huge variety of possible viable builds, you won't see that in JRPGs. Even if they offer an unlinear leveling system it usually ends up with only one build being useful (see FFXIII-2 for example).

Also the complexity of what you can do is much higher in Pen&Paper too, because the GameMaster can adjust while a video game can't do that so well.
Board games are largely a social experience while most video games tend to be a solitary one, so I don't think you can draw much from one medium towards the other, especially if you're designing a single player RPG.

I'm actually a board gamer first and would rather play one versus a video game if given the option. The great thing about board games is that your experience can vastly change each time you play so it doesn't get as stale quickly. Of course, this greatly depends on the design of the board game in question; you can't compare the design of Monopoly to something like Settlers of Catan, or even compare Catan to something like Netrunner, and so on. There are so many board game designs and while there are certain archetypes out there (such as the much hated roll & move design, deck builders, etc.), I'd venture to say that there are many more unique designs out there in the board gaming world than there are in the video game one. Board game designers are constantly striving for new and innovative mechanics whereas it seems like video game designs have been stuck in a rut for a long time.

Plus there's nothing greater than the tactile nature of board games, being able to physically touch and connect with the design and all its components. Sure, the graphics of board games can't compete with video games but with just a little imagination (and great mechanics that tie in well to the theme of the game) you can really immerse yourself in the experience and actually feel like you are a farmer struggling to build up your own farm in Agricola, or the leader of space faring race seeking to dominate the galaxy in Eclipse.
author=Mateui
There are so many board game designs and while there are certain archetypes out there (such as the much hated roll & move design, deck builders, etc.), I'd venture to say that there are many more unique designs out there in the board gaming world than there are in the video game one. Board game designers are constantly striving for new and innovative mechanics whereas it seems like video game designs have been stuck in a rut for a long time.

I would strongly disagree with this. There is a lot more variety in video games than board games any day of the week. I mean especially in the last few years games have been stretching the meaning of what video games can be with loads and loads of new interesting mechanics and ideas.

Of course in video games theming is often more important than in board games. While a great theme can make the difference between a good and great board game in video games theming is indicative of the whole experience. So while a retheme might not seem like much there's a huge difference between Shelter and God of War.

I don't want to knock boardgames because I love them a lot, but saying that video game design is more stagnated than boardgame design is just factually wrong.
author=DFalcon
I've previously commented on RMN that people should be taking more stuff from board games, but I said that basically from a mechanical perspective (considering the proportion of games here with turn-based or menu-based combat).

I really feel like turn based gameplay is unexplored (there's like the occasional TBS but that's really it). Can you imagine a regular JRPG with a story and cutscenes but everything you did was turn based (basically a roguelike without dungeon crawling elements) with resource mechanics from board games? I kind of want to experiment with that at some point.

Unlimited Saga sounds terrible but looking at the videos and that 10 part tutorial video, I can kind of see what they were trying to do. Also it's not that scary when you consider the nature of the SaGa series.
Hey guys, only slightly related to the topic, but I'm looking for video games that feel like board games. They should be playable on a current gen console or windows vista and newer.

Basically something like Unlimited SaGa, but it can be even more board game-like.

I remember back in DOS days there were actually quite some games that really played like board games except that you could play against an AI and the board was larger than would fit into the living room. But something like rolling a dice then moving on the board and dependig on the field you landed there was some kind of event.

They can also be exact copies of board games, but then they should at least feel pretty RPG/Strategy like (not just a puzzle game or something).
Dokapon Kingdom for the Wii (or PS2, or DS).
The Mario Party series is essentially a glorified virtual board game, with mini games in between turns
Yeah, exactly like that, unfortunately I have those already. =3
Should play them again.
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