I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU ALL, BUT A FEMALE SQUALL FOR FF8 WOULD HAVE BEEN COOL.

Posts

unity
You're magical to me.
12540
author=Mr_Detective
author=Yellow Magic
author=Mr_Detective
What was really not cool is the way Liberty responded. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you have to be hostile and create controversy about it.
I don't see anything hostile about what Liberty wrote. You sound awfully offended by a valid point, dude...
Not quite offended, but more like disturbed with her attitude. I thought she was drunk or her account was hijacked by someone else. If you didn't see the hostility, then that's fine. Her point might be valid, but she was still extremely overreacting and it was unnecessary for a thread like this.


The only hostility in Liberty's post was against the annoying trend of sexing up female characters, not against anyone in the thread. Do you really think she doesn't have a right to express those opinions here? And you equate that with being drunk or having your account hijacked!?

Liberty and no one else are doing anything to take anything away from you. You can look at all the fanart of genderswapped characters you want, with as little clothing on them as you want. But if you have a problem with someone else not thinking bikini-clad ladies are a cool representation of their gender, then you've crossed the line. Geez.

author=Avee
Welp, Welp! might not be the best place to discuss character aesthetics and sexualization anyway.
If anyone wants to start a topic in the GD&T forum, I'm sure many of us have an opinion on the subject.


That sounds like a great idea.
Yellow Magic
Could I BE any more Chandler Bing from Friends (TM)?
3229
author=Mr_Detective
I thought she was drunk or her account was hijacked by someone else.
Yeah, next time someone disagrees with my own opinion I'm going to assume they're either wasted or the NSA.

author=Avee
If anyone wants to start a topic in the GD&T forum, I'm sure many of us have an opinion on the subject.
I'd approve of this were it not already a frequent area of discussion all over RMN...
author=unity
The only hostility in Liberty's post was against the annoying trend of sexing up female characters, not against anyone in the thread. Do you really think she doesn't have a right to express those opinions here? And you equate that with being drunk or having your account hijacked!?

Liberty and no one else are doing anything to take anything away from you. You can look at all the fanart of genderswapped characters you want, with as little clothing on them as you want. But if you have a problem with someone else not thinking bikini-clad ladies are a cool representation of their gender, then you've crossed the line. Geez.

author=Yellow Magic
Yeah, next time someone disagrees with my own opinion I'm going to assume they're either wasted or the NSA.

She has the right to express whatever her opinion is, and I was pointing out that she was overreacting. She wasn't comfortable with the fanart, that's fine, I get that. The hostility I was referring to is the tone in her post. I have never seen Liberty posted anything with that much hostility, not to mention the extremely overreaction, that's what disturbed me.

No one is taking anything from me. That wasn't what I trying to say at all. If you still don't get my point, then we have a serious miscommunication, and I am too exhausted right now to explain further, nor do I feel like to.

author=Avee
Welp, Welp! might not be the best place to discuss character aesthetics and sexualization anyway.
If anyone wants to start a topic in the GD&T forum, I'm sure many of us have an opinion on the subject.

Yeah.
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
32378
I'm probably opening myself up for something here, but I don't care.

I TOTALLY agree with Liberty, hostility and all. Seriously, I have been playing RPGs since...since...a day when no Americans knew that Dragon Warrior was properly called Dragon Quest. Star Ocean, Final Fantasy, I can't even remember half of what I've played and I've got a memory like an elephant.

Being an RPG fanatic, I have seen women dressed in swimwear, comfortably braving snowstorms (Xenosaga II if you got the bikini bonuses. Uh-huh, you see that there and not just KOS-MOS). You know, Final Fantasy XII was one of the best FF games ever, yeah Vaan left a little to be desired, and Fran totally rocked, but somebody has to say it, she was dressed like a Playboy bunny. I haven't played the game in awhile, but I think she even had rabbit ears. WTF? Don't even get me started on the Grandia series.

I understand it's all anime, and that most anime writers use this art as an outlet for their puerile fantasies. I get that. It's a healthy outlet for an artistic man who would otherwise be regarded a pervert. But now this stuff has filtered down into the mainstream and all of the puerile garbage is filtering down with it. (I'm serious, in Grandia III there was one girl at a desert village. I was thinking it would be just one pixel one way or the other and this game would be porn.)

I am an artist. I rebuild pianos for a living. I write and draw as a hobby, I dabble in computer programming. There can be no doubt about what I am. All I do relates beautifying the world. My life is entirely lived delving into intellectual pursuits. Neither am I rich or even middle class, so it can be deduced that I am fairly skilled at what I do otherwise, I would not have the time for such pursuits. Whenever I write, or whenever I draw, I have always found strong female characters easier to relate to than male characters. I'm sorry, I've just gotten tired of all of the Schwarzeneggers, Stallones, Norrises, and Willises. So that's what I write. In my stories, the heroes are the women.

Frankly, I want to see more Nancy Drews, more Supergirls, more Wonderwomen, more Lara Crofts, but honestly, if everyone's too busy looking at their breasts, nobody is ever going to take the characters seriously. Some of you may want to take a look at Image comics. Those books draws all of their superheroes as musclebound buffoons (even Spawn doesn't get a break here), but in many cases (and I laugh my ass off every time I see it) they are drawn very realistically, except for their muscles, and it's kind of hard to take them seriously when you see their wads bulging in their tights (with irregular shadows to leave even less to the imagination). Gentlemen how do you feel about being sexualized like that?

We need to have a rate it button for comments like Liberty's. I'd have given her five stars if I could. Right on.
Firstly, Mr. D we usually get along well which may be why you're questioning whether I'm drunk or being overly hostile. Neither is the case - or at least, I'm sure I was neither hacked, drunk and I wasn't aware I was being hostile if I was.

Secondly, you might not like what I'm about to say. Rest assured I still like you and encourage you to follow your RM dreams. I'm fond of you, being one of the better newbies we've had throw themselves into the site. That doesn't mean I won't speak my mind. I've always been encouraged to do so and I doubt I'll stop now.

For the record - I am currently not drunk. I am, however hacked... off. Let me start.

This topic began as a 'look this is what Squall might look like as a woman how cool an idea' which is great in and of itself. I like GB. Just ask anyone who's had the misfortune to know why I've acquired the nickname Cherry Pie Princess.

What I take issue with is that the 'redesign' of Squall as a character that was shown off is one that is not true to Squall 'as a character'. Squall - the character - is no-nonsense. He wears comfortable clothes that are pretty generic - Black leather jacket, black pants, white tee. He then adds accents - belts, silver bits etc. I can assure you he didn't buy them in a store like that. Those bits and bobs are part of his personality. They show just as much who Squall is as the story does - a seemingly blank character with spice that makes him different to others. So why should female Squall be different?

She'd still be a soldier. Still be the same Squall - brooding, thoughtful, intelligent - just with breasts instead of a dick. And this is the crux of the matter at hand - why do people feel the need to take a character that just so happens to be female and sex her up.

An example - Ashe. Ashe is in hiding. She's trying not to bring notice to herself while travelling and engaging in rebellious activities, so of course the occasion calls for her to wear that blindingly pink miniskirt! What else would you wear to avoid notice? -.-
And no, don't say 'she's being civilian, she's blending in'. No one else was wearing that skirt or anything close to it. The top, okay, but for the most part the NPCs wore pants and long skirts. Nice airy pants and long airy skirts perfect for desert areas. And don't get me started on Fran's heels. >.<;

This is actually a good lead-in to clothes - To quote myself from the RMW Female Character thread:
"
Sexy women in video games, eh? Let's name a few shall we? Tifa, Yuffie, Celes, Katt, Nina, the Shamans from Breath of Fire II (though kudos for having a dark skinned one, even if she is a bit obese - this was created in the early-mid 90s. Very progressive for that time.), Jeane, Rinoa (you couldn't wear a normal skirt? Or longer shorts? Really?), Quistis, Selphie, Marle, Ayla... most women fit tropes in video games. They're either the 'pure virgin' like Aeris, Realm or Eiko; the 'androgynous battle anthro/furry chick' like Freya or Bleu; the 'sexy badass' like Tifa, Celes and Katt; the '"weak"* sexy one' like Terra, Nina, Rinoa and Jeane.

There's a bit of crossover but for the most part womens' clothes are revealing - either they're cut short/low, they're tight-fitting or they're missing pieces (hello Katt with no pants. Yes, it's her official design. Yes, she's still freakin' awesome. Yes, she can kick your and my asses).

On the other hand, mens' clothes are almost always full-bodied and/or badass/protective. It's stupid that women 'can't look good' and still kick ass - and by looking good I do not mean 'looking like sex objects'. I mean looking like someone who is ready to kick all kinds of ass without needing to show tons of skin. Fair enough, tight suits if they need to move around fast and easily (especially for close combat experts). And sure, if the character themselves likes to dress a certain way and it fits with her character, fine. But don't go saying 'she wears short-shorts and a tank top because she likes to look good kicking ass'.

No.

The first thing a woman thinks of when going to kick ass is whether her boobs are gonna get in the way and how to strap them down so they don't. (Second would be "what armour can I put on that will not chafe and will still protect my body"... just like men. Imagine that!)

Speaking of breasts - most of the time skinny women don't have size F bazookas unless they're fake. And if she does, they're strapped down tight in a fight. None of this 'no bra bouncing around like they're bubbles swaying on a breeze' shit, for the love of all that is holy. >.<;

*I am well aware that Terra, Nina and Jeane are absolute beasts in battle. However! They are portrayed by the game as either women who need saving (Terra, though I gotta admit, VI did a great job with character progression and giving the girls a fair chance to be real people) (and Nina), women who are weaker physically (drat that upper arm hold! Drat it, I say!) or are easily killed in battle (to be fair, Nina and Jeane are both mage-types. Nina's defences are ridiculous, though. Almost always a one-hit KO on certain monsters unless she's really levelled up.)

"


More? More.

"
There's a difference between feminine, walking around in the street and being dressed in cut-away clothes when you know you're going into battle. A very big difference. No right-minded women would dream of wearing high-heels into battle. Not if they want to live. Nor would they wear a mini-skirt or anything that would make it hard to move.

Believe it or not, women know what clothes limit their movement. They wear those clothes for various reasons - it makes the feel good about themselves, they like to look good, they have a business function and that's the required clothing, they think men want to see them in those clothes, they're hot, they're cold, they're feeling promiscuous. Fine. That's what they wear in every day life.

HOWEVER, ask any woman to get dressed for fighting and in the majority of cases they will pick clothes they can move in. Runners, pants, jumper and tie their hair back. Also, bra that grab and hold in place. Only those who have no idea what they're getting themselves in to would pick constrictive clothing. Most women feel vulnerable enough in a short skirt walking down a street at night, never mind running into battle with one on. And I guarantee you that only the completely idiotic women (which do exist, as with men) would wear high-fricking-heels into battle.
"

To be fair, there are times when a character will wear something that seems odd in battle. Say, oh, Selphie. HOWEVER - as we've seen Selphie in and out of battle, in at least a few outfits, we know that those clothes are very much part of her character. If suddenly she started sporting bra and shorts we would wonder what the ever living fuck was going on - because it's not in her character to wear such things.

Which is my complaint with the Squall GB. Float it as a sexy design, okay. Float it as possible character in-game redo of SQUALL - NO. That is not Squall. She would not wear that - it's not her character to. It's a complete rewrite of his already established character - something that would not change from male to female. We're not that fucking different guys - at least, not enough to rewrite a whole character just because they suddenly have breasts.


And please do not get me started on realistic body sizes... please. We'll be here all night. >.<;
Anyone who mistakes passion for hostility needs a slap in the face and to be told to open their eyes. RMN is full of opinions, all of them valid for one reason or another.

Accusing another of being DRUNK for posting a simple opinion. Is that seriously what we've come to? "I don't agree, so that means you're not thinking clearly and therefore must be drunk."

Wow. I'm shocked that this topic hasn't been hit with a shiny padlock.
Anyone who mistakes passion for hostility needs a slap in the face and to be told to open their eyes.


Passion could lead to hostility.

Accusing another of being DRUNK for posting a simple opinion.


That wasn't just a simple opinion. If it was, I wouldn't have argued with her.

"I don't agree, so that means you're not thinking clearly and therefore must be drunk."


The fuck...? Stop using that statement as an excuse. You really have problem with reading comprehension.

Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=Mr_Detective
You really have problem with reading comprehension.


Stop using that statement as an excuse. You really have a problem grasping when you may simply be in the wrong.
unity
You're magical to me.
12540
I think our words are going to fall on deaf ears. Liberty wrote a lengthy and very well put defense of her statement, and despite it being addressed primarily to him, Mr. D didn't even acknowledge it.

It's sad, but I don't think anything we say will change his mind, and he doesn't seem open to a mature discussion about it.
author=Corfaisus
author=Mr_Detective
You really have problem with reading comprehension.
Stop using that statement as an excuse. You really have a problem grasping when you may simply be in the wrong.

Or maybe you just didn't bother to read.

author=unity
I think our words are going to fall on deaf ears. Liberty wrote a lengthy and very well put defense of her statement, and despite it being addressed primarily to him, Mr. D didn't even acknowledge it.

It's sad, but I don't think anything we say will change his mind, and he doesn't seem open to a mature discussion about it.

I didn't? OK. This discussion isn't going anywhere if you just close your eyes and ignore what I tried to explain, anyway.

I'm done with this.
Squall's personality is just so... at odds with going around wearing just a bra and nothing on her legs. If anything, female-Squall would be likely to wear exactly what male Squall is wearing.



This is a game that had female characters in lead roles. From the start, Quistis is above Squall in both age and rank. She is the leader of the party (you're just controlling it because, playing Squall, it's easier). Then Rinoa commands things.

...and neither of them are particularly exploitative. Sure, Quistis has a whip, but she wears normal clothes, as does Rinoa.



That neckline. We'll never see such a neckline again.



Nice casual attire.

What if Squall was female you ask?

This is what she'd look like:

unity
You're magical to me.
12540
Absolutely fantastic, Amy. :D

author=Mr_Detective
I didn't? OK. This discussion isn't going anywhere if you just close your eyes and ignore what I tried to explain, anyway.

No you didn't. Did you even read what she wrote?

Okay. You think I'm being unfair. That I'm closing my eyes. That I'm ignoring what you're explaining. Will you try one more time, aside from just saying "she was hostile?" Can you point to what, exactly, specifically, she is saying that is bothering you so much?

Because I want to understand what's gotten you so upset. But if you keep repeating "she was hostile" without providing what, exactly, she said that's wrong, then I'll never know.
Gentlemen how do you feel about being sexualized like that?

Nothing. Probably because 1) I'm not a prude (Is that the word I'm looking for?). How a character is depicted makes me think no more or less of them, or of their authors for that matter. I find it's way more reasonable to simply evaluate the 'character' of a work as a whole and determine if it is the right thing for me - if it's a work I would enjoy. And if it's not, simply seek for alternatives, or decide if I want to indulge on it anyway despite it's shortcomings (We've all done this). ...For the record, criticism is always valid. But you know, "keep it real, yo!"

And 2) No one is "sexualizing" ME. They're sexualizing a fictional character. Idk, I just don't get how people see themselves "represented" in media... Let's say your name is Alex, and you see a character named Alex doing something that you disapprove of. You don't go: "For shame! We Alexs are not like that!" do you? Then why do people do this when it's their gender, ethnicity, etc. that loosely links them to a character? Because unless you have evidence this was the author's INTENT (and I think is very easy to spot propagandistic stuff) your concerns are misplaced. You're a fully-fledged human being. And that character was never meant to come even close to what you are.

"But HISTORY/SOCIETY!" ...Ok, sure. But I mean, let's help break the cycle. Just looking at things a bit more objectively can do wonders.
slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4158
author=alterego
Look at things a bit more objectively. That alone can do wonders.

Objectively, when a daunting amount of characters that share some trait (women) are portrayed as also having other unrelated traits (hypersexy), it encourages the viewers to make a subconscious link between the two in their minds, and many will.

Anyway, sexy men and women are fine, but like Liberty's saying, it's gotta make sense in-context and in-universe. Squall is mopey and brooding, it doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense to wear a lace bra or whatever she's wearing in that one pic.

(I think there's probably an argument to be made for certain games with outrageous sexualization - see Dragon's Crown - but much-too-frequently lazy sexiness is only applied to women. It's the easiest, cheapest, lowest-common-denominator of character design.)
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=slashphoenix
author=alterego
Look at things a bit more objectively. That alone can do wonders.
Objectively, when a daunting amount of characters that share some trait (women) are portrayed as also having other unrelated traits (hypersexy), it encourages the viewers to make a subconscious link between the two in their minds, and many will.

This is exactly how passive racism works as well. Even if your next door neighbor isn't a hardened criminal, overexposure to subject matter that portrays someone like your neighbor as such without equal or greater exposure to a positive portrayal instills distrust and fear in anyone who may or may not consciously connect it to prejudice.
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
32378
author=alterego
Gentlemen how do you feel about being sexualized like that?
Nothing. Probably because 1) I'm not a prude (Is that the word I'm looking for?). How a character is depicted makes me think no more or less of them, or of their authors for that matter. I find it's way more reasonable to simply evaluate the 'character' of a work as a whole and determine if it is the right thing for me - if it's a work I would enjoy. And if it's not, simply seek for alternatives, or decide if I want to indulge on it anyway despite it's shortcomings (We've all done this). ...For the record, criticism is always valid. But you know, "keep it real, yo!"

And 2) No one is "sexualizing" ME. They're sexualizing a fictional character. Idk, I just don't get how people see themselves "represented" in media... Let's say your name is Alex, and you see a character named Alex doing something that you disapprove of. You don't go: "For shame! We Alexs are not like that!" do you? Then why do people do this when it's their gender, ethnicity, etc. that loosely links them to a character? Because unless you have evidence this was the author's INTENT (and I think is very easy to spot propagandistic stuff) your concerns are misplaced. You're a fully-fledged human being. And that character was never meant to come even close to what you are.

"But HISTORY/SOCIETY!" ...Ok, sure. But I mean, let's help break the cycle. Just looking at things a bit more objectively can do wonders.


And you're missing the point deliberately. The truth is, you can't break the cycle and you can't look at things more objectively. Why? Because frankly, men aren't sexualized in our culture.

They're not. Flat out. I tried to argue that it did occur. I mean, look at Playgirl and Chippendales. That right there is oversexualization of men. So my wife, in fact one of the last things she did before she died, tried an experiment with me. We went to Barnes and Noble. She told me to count the magazines with half naked men on the cover. I found one. It was called "Out". She next asked me to count all of the magazines with half naked women on the covers. I lost count. They were on most of the men's magazines, all of the women's magazines, not one dressed in anything less revealing than skimping bathing (Lady Gaga was on the cover of Vogue--nothing but cleavage), and I was even hard pressed find knitting and craft magazines that didn't show sexy women dressed in next to nothing. Vogue Knits had woman on the cover in a nice wool shirt, and a wool skirt so short you could see her underwear.

Oh, you don't feel anything about it because it's not about YOU. Well, if you're a women, you're nice and enlightened but seem to be expecting a bit much of the rest of the women in the world, who have to live everyday with headlines where judges let rapists go because the woman was somehow the reason he couldn't keep his fucking pants on. Who have been allowed in the military since 1942, but to this day, STILL have to fight for the right to help men defend this country. Where Rand Paul insists there is no war on women while he casually drafts bills systematically stripping women of their right to healthcare. If you're a man, well, we see why you'd take the attitude you have, right there, now don't we?

And you think this is going off the deep end, you'd be dead wrong. This is discussing the prevailing attitude in society that men are the only ones that have anything worthwhile to contribute whereas women are nothing more than walking wombs to dress up nice pretty, get off on, and toss them aside.

All Liberty and I are asking is that women be taken seriously, but this simple thing, of course, becomes a major controversy.

Liberty made the best points on this post, and what did she get for her trouble? She was accused of being DRUNK AND HACKED. That's as old the Pharaohs: a woman who doesn't agree with the menfolk is somehow mentally impaired. Mr. D wonders that we're still going on about that comment. Well I'll tell you why, Mr. D. You aren't the first man to dismiss an intelligent and strong woman as mentally impaired, you aren't the first to accuse her of being drunk. Hell, in the 1930s, you could have had her committed to a mental institution for the rest of her life for making a statement like that, a very common way men used to get rid of inconvenient wives, daughters, employees, and other women that caused trouble for them (you know, a good movie that explores this problem is Changling with Angelina Jolie.)

How old is this argument? Woman was, according to tradition, made from the rib of Adam. According to tradition, the rib came from the left side of Adam's body. Did you know that a left-handed man in medieval times could not be a knight because he was considered a spawn of the devil? The Left Hand Path is the proper name for following the ways of Satan. It is also considered the feminine side of religion. You do the math. Women have been vilified by the "superior" man for thousands of years.

I don't know if Liberty is hacked off, but I sure as shit am. "She must be drunk or hacked," is straight out of the neanderthal's mouth. It perfectly sums up the chauvinist's rallying cry for the ages past.

It's not about you? Well, here's the best part: when you're sitting in a court room sitting on the other side of the room from a rapist while the whole court listens with sympathy while describes that horrible, evil, bewitching woman who lied/cheated/enticed him into doing what he did and you hear the not guilty come down, it sure as shit will be about you. If it happens to your wife, it will sure as shit be about you. If it happens to your daughter, it will sure as shit be about you.

Puerile fantasies are fine. A world built on them is a travesty.
I just want to remind everyone that this is the welp, welp forum, meaning no one should be taking anything too seriously and too much to heart in this forum.
I'm actually glad this topic veered into that direction to be fair. If it helps to change people's perspective on objectification in the media then it's a win win. Otherwise the thread would of devolved into masturbation for a page or two and nothing would of been gained from it. =/
Wow.
Just wow.

This has become way off-topic. Requesting lock.

Edit: still supporting an official thread where civilized discussion can take place and no off-topic comments will be tolerated.
@pianotm: Let me just say that I can. After all, it's not like I'm incapable of empathy or haven't experienced prejudice myself. But at the end of the day I think I can look at things objectively. I sure do wonder sometimes if this is too much to ask from others, though. But I just ponder that if only everyone else could too, there would be no judge in the world who would let a rapist go free... But I'm not really touching that or any of the other subjects you brought up because, they have little to nothing to do with my post. So, yeah.