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PERFECT TIME LENGTH FOR FIRST DUNGEON?
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ShortStar
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CloseI'm play testing a map I made for someone. It is 180 paces through without any deviation. From the start of the game to getting through the first dungeon its 2 hours long. Battles every 20 paces and the town is very minimal. With the enemies I was given to play with, I had to return to the first town 2x.
So I'm thinking the first dungeon is too long or I need to make encounters happen every 30 paces. I am thinking that I need to make a different brief first dungeon that is maybe 40 paces instead of 180.
While the guy I'm mapping for is uber happy to have a map that big 2 maps 80x80 I don't think it should be what the player first walks in at a 2 hour investment of time right off the bat.
What is the perfect length for the first dungeon?
So I'm thinking the first dungeon is too long or I need to make encounters happen every 30 paces. I am thinking that I need to make a different brief first dungeon that is maybe 40 paces instead of 180.
While the guy I'm mapping for is uber happy to have a map that big 2 maps 80x80 I don't think it should be what the player first walks in at a 2 hour investment of time right off the bat.
What is the perfect length for the first dungeon?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
This is like basically impossible to answer, and so of course I'm going to try.
- How long do your battles last?
- How many dungeons are there going to be?
- How many different enemy groups are there?
- Are these groups encountered randomly?
- Can you warp back to town or do you have to walk back?
- If you do part of the dungeon and then have to return to the town, do you start where you left off or do you start over?
- How long do your battles last?
- How many dungeons are there going to be?
- How many different enemy groups are there?
- Are these groups encountered randomly?
- Can you warp back to town or do you have to walk back?
- If you do part of the dungeon and then have to return to the town, do you start where you left off or do you start over?
Aegix_Drakan
6037
author=LockeZ
- Are these groups encountered randomly?
For the love of gaming, please say no. If you do make them random, at least throw up an indicator when you're close to getting jumped on.
;_; Every time someone implements random encounters that aren't engaging, a kitty dies. And they're so hard to get right...
Personally, I'm a fan of short dungeons. Endurance based dungeons are rarely fun, unless you have a way to retreat to town to resupply and you can open up shortcuts to get back to where you were without re-doing the whole dungeon.
IMO, the first dungeon shouldn't be more than 30 minutes (not counting time killing the boss).
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
The chance of having random encounters based on his description is about 98%. But I had to be sure.
Nothing inherently wrong with them, and they're perfect in a situation like this. They can help add variety when you have to redo a section of a dungeon multiple times. Otherwise you'd be doing the exact same battles again.
Nothing inherently wrong with them, and they're perfect in a situation like this. They can help add variety when you have to redo a section of a dungeon multiple times. Otherwise you'd be doing the exact same battles again.
author=LockeZ
This is like basically impossible to answer, and so of course I'm going to try.
- How long do your battles last?
- How many dungeons are there going to be?
- How many different enemy groups are there?
- Are these groups encountered randomly?
- Can you warp back to town or do you have to walk back?
- If you do part of the dungeon and then have to return to the town, do you start where you left off or do you start over?
- I'd say longer than the average RPG Maker battles. 5 vs 4 most of the time.
- No idea. Just making this one.
- A lot of groups. Enough to keep it interesting.
- Random every 20 paces. Looks like the game recommends 30 paces.
- I was able to warp back thankfully.
- Gotta start back from the beginning.
In the time it took for me to get back to you, I already have a 70 pace dungeon done. Without the side paths of course.
Edit >> And now, I play tested from start to the boss, 20 minutes. No backtracking, 2 people dead. Much better and if anything the dev gets 2 dungeons.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
So it sounds like battles are long enough to feel individually meaningful, but nowhere near like tactical RPG length.
For a dungeon later in the game, I'd say there are two major options. The first option is that you care more about preventing repetition than about making sure the player sees all the enemies. In this case, you want the number of battles to be about 3/4 the number of enemy groups; for example, if you have 20 unique enemy groups, put the player in about 15 battles. This is about the point where they hit a 50% chance of seeing the same enemy group twice.
The second option is that you really want to make sure the player overcomes almost all the battles you create, even if this means he has to see a few of them twice. In this case, if you're using purely random battles, you probably want about twice as many battles as there are enemy groups. This will create about a 50% chance to see more than 90% of the enemy groups. (A 50% chance to see every single enemy groups will require several times this many battles.) Though a cleaner method would be to keep track of which enemy groups the player has seen before and have a decreased or nonexistant chance to encounter enemy groups that have already been fought once, and then have as close as possible to the same number of battles as enemy groups.
For the first dungeon, though, the second option is actually probably what you want. Your battles in the first dungeon should effectively be tutorials on how to play, each one designed to present an aspect of the gameplay to the player, to prepare them for challenges that will be repeated later with more difficulty. You don't want them to miss those. And the player won't be used to the game enough for the repetition to really become bothersome - the same battle will be played differently the second time around just because the player is still getting used to the game and trying out all his skills.
Because of this I'd recommend having far fewer enemy groups in the first dungeon than in other dungeons. This will let you make it shorter than usual while still getting this effect.
Regarding the ability to warp back to town, if warping back to town twice is the goal you're going for, then you're adding a few battles. At most, two recalls will double the number of battles the player fights in the zone. But more likely both of those recalls occur close to the entrance, as the player is initially outmatched by the enemies, but then as soon as the player is capable of getting halfway through the zone he's capable of finishing it.
For a dungeon later in the game, I'd say there are two major options. The first option is that you care more about preventing repetition than about making sure the player sees all the enemies. In this case, you want the number of battles to be about 3/4 the number of enemy groups; for example, if you have 20 unique enemy groups, put the player in about 15 battles. This is about the point where they hit a 50% chance of seeing the same enemy group twice.
The second option is that you really want to make sure the player overcomes almost all the battles you create, even if this means he has to see a few of them twice. In this case, if you're using purely random battles, you probably want about twice as many battles as there are enemy groups. This will create about a 50% chance to see more than 90% of the enemy groups. (A 50% chance to see every single enemy groups will require several times this many battles.) Though a cleaner method would be to keep track of which enemy groups the player has seen before and have a decreased or nonexistant chance to encounter enemy groups that have already been fought once, and then have as close as possible to the same number of battles as enemy groups.
For the first dungeon, though, the second option is actually probably what you want. Your battles in the first dungeon should effectively be tutorials on how to play, each one designed to present an aspect of the gameplay to the player, to prepare them for challenges that will be repeated later with more difficulty. You don't want them to miss those. And the player won't be used to the game enough for the repetition to really become bothersome - the same battle will be played differently the second time around just because the player is still getting used to the game and trying out all his skills.
Because of this I'd recommend having far fewer enemy groups in the first dungeon than in other dungeons. This will let you make it shorter than usual while still getting this effect.
Regarding the ability to warp back to town, if warping back to town twice is the goal you're going for, then you're adding a few battles. At most, two recalls will double the number of battles the player fights in the zone. But more likely both of those recalls occur close to the entrance, as the player is initially outmatched by the enemies, but then as soon as the player is capable of getting halfway through the zone he's capable of finishing it.
Battles averaged out to be around 90 - 120 seconds. Its good to have the little clock in the menu. Which would be like 50 battles minus town and walking time in that first scenario with the 2 hour dungeon.
The newer first dungeon is only like 10 battles to make it through.
Anyway, done with my end of the project. But I'm still open to hearing everyone's take on what a first dungeon should be. There are plenty of people starting games.
The newer first dungeon is only like 10 battles to make it through.
Anyway, done with my end of the project. But I'm still open to hearing everyone's take on what a first dungeon should be. There are plenty of people starting games.
author=Aegix_Drakanauthor=LockeZFor the love of gaming, please say no. If you do make them random, at least throw up an indicator when you're close to getting jumped on.
- Are these groups encountered randomly?
;_; Every time someone implements random encounters that aren't engaging, a kitty dies. And they're so hard to get right...
The problem with RE isn't that they're inherently bad, but that people insist on using the default in-engine version... which is terribly flawed. The number given to a map for the RE counter is like a weighted die. Roll it and more often than not it will hit the lower numbers. It doesn't matter how high you set that number, there is always - always - the chance of a one-step encounter.
It's a lot better to implement your own using variables. You can even add a random chance to it very easily (base variable +/- two random rolls that are set to about 1/3 or 1/4 of the amount of the base. So say base is 20 steps. One roll would be between 1 and 5-8 points. First roll is 3, second 5. 20 + 3 - 5 = 18. So on the 18th step an encounter. So freakin' easy.)
Short enough that you waste no space with the dungeon design and only have what you need. And therefore don't spend a lot of time walking to where you need to be.
Long enough to make you feel like a badass for walking in and walking out in mostly-one piece. And gives you the basic information for what you should expect when you go into a dungeon. Should I expect dead ends? Should I expect treasure to be hidden out in the open or as shiny gleaming dots? Can I interact with certain objects? Does clicking on objects make events happen? Can I hopscotch over water?
Generally, short enough that if there were no random battles, you could walk to the end and back out in less than 3 minutes.
Long enough to make you feel like a badass for walking in and walking out in mostly-one piece. And gives you the basic information for what you should expect when you go into a dungeon. Should I expect dead ends? Should I expect treasure to be hidden out in the open or as shiny gleaming dots? Can I interact with certain objects? Does clicking on objects make events happen? Can I hopscotch over water?
Generally, short enough that if there were no random battles, you could walk to the end and back out in less than 3 minutes.
RyaReisender
200
I'd say this is a lot of design choice and there is no real answer to it at all. I like my games with random encounters, however if you only have 3 formations per dungeon and you need to fight 100 battles then that of course is super boring.
I wouldn't be as critical as LockeZ and say that the same formation shouldn't be fought more than once (because I personally would want the player to repeat them to notice how he can clear them faster now knowing the better tactic), but there sure shouldn't more than twice the battle than different formations and each region should also at least have 5 different monster types (which in theory allows you do create 100+ different formations, but often you will want to combine them so that the battle remain strategic and fun).
As for dungeon length, does it really have an upper limit at all? I don't think so. I like dungeon crawlers where your first dungeon is the whole 20-hour-long game and you have to go back to town multiple times (good ideas for big dungeons: instant escape spell, unlocking shortcuts). It's also fine to have a small first dungeon to give the player some short introduction into combat before continueing with the story (though I personally like my dungeons big and the story as minimalistic as possible).
You sure can make your dungeon 2 hours long, but always keep in mind that it needs to stay interesting. Not only a good variety in encounters is needed. Different scenery, different ways of "getting further", different floor layout and a puzzle here and there. Also a "wide" design is much better than a "long" design. And as said, you will want to allow the player to retreat to town and then be able to shortcut significantly, so he can feel his progress.
I wouldn't be as critical as LockeZ and say that the same formation shouldn't be fought more than once (because I personally would want the player to repeat them to notice how he can clear them faster now knowing the better tactic), but there sure shouldn't more than twice the battle than different formations and each region should also at least have 5 different monster types (which in theory allows you do create 100+ different formations, but often you will want to combine them so that the battle remain strategic and fun).
As for dungeon length, does it really have an upper limit at all? I don't think so. I like dungeon crawlers where your first dungeon is the whole 20-hour-long game and you have to go back to town multiple times (good ideas for big dungeons: instant escape spell, unlocking shortcuts). It's also fine to have a small first dungeon to give the player some short introduction into combat before continueing with the story (though I personally like my dungeons big and the story as minimalistic as possible).
You sure can make your dungeon 2 hours long, but always keep in mind that it needs to stay interesting. Not only a good variety in encounters is needed. Different scenery, different ways of "getting further", different floor layout and a puzzle here and there. Also a "wide" design is much better than a "long" design. And as said, you will want to allow the player to retreat to town and then be able to shortcut significantly, so he can feel his progress.
3-4 screens. Plus a boss screen. They should be medium-large screens with a few twists, but nothing overwhelming.
If it's a zelda game, I think the first dungeon was 17 screens. But they were small squares while you'd expect the average dungeon screen to be at least 4 times that, and possibly have some simple mazes and/or puzzles.
Btw, that was the actual tutorial dungeon length in Lufia II, about three or four main screens and a few connector screens.
The time it should take is roughly 15-30 minutes.
If it's a zelda game, I think the first dungeon was 17 screens. But they were small squares while you'd expect the average dungeon screen to be at least 4 times that, and possibly have some simple mazes and/or puzzles.
Btw, that was the actual tutorial dungeon length in Lufia II, about three or four main screens and a few connector screens.
The time it should take is roughly 15-30 minutes.
author=Liberty
It's a lot better to implement your own using variables. You can even add a random chance to it very easily (base variable +/- two random rolls that are set to about 1/3 or 1/4 of the amount of the base. So say base is 20 steps. One roll would be between 1 and 5-8 points. First roll is 3, second 5. 20 + 3 - 5 = 18. So on the 18th step an encounter. So freakin' easy.)
Come to think of it. make the variable 15 - 25 if you want around 20. Looks like the game system would prefer a method like encounter_count - 5 + rand(10). It would always hit about the 15 - 25th instead of having the possibility of hitting 1 - 40. Adjust the 5 and rand(10) accordingly.
Any length is fine, as long as it fits the line of difficulty you want to keep consistent throughout the game.
Maybe 3-5 rooms/screens/whatever that take around 10 minutes or so. Again, it depends on whether the game has a gradual progression of difficulty, it stays the same throughout, or it's kinda schizophrenic.
Maybe 3-5 rooms/screens/whatever that take around 10 minutes or so. Again, it depends on whether the game has a gradual progression of difficulty, it stays the same throughout, or it's kinda schizophrenic.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=RyaReisenderAny game with "one giant dungeon" is going to have it broken up into floors, or stratums, or topographies, or some other sort of cutoff like that, where the dungeon changes somewhat when you go from one to the next. If a game didn't do this, it would feel like you weren't getting anywhere. People like to feel a sense of accomplishment for having beaten a section of the game. When you get to the end of the first floor of Etrian Odyssey (and the end of every floor!) you unlock a bunch of new item synths and other stuff that use ingredients obtained on the next floor, and also new sidequests in the pub, and other stuff like that. Sometimes there's also a boss or cutscene. The kind of stuff that makes you go "YEAAAAAHHHHHH"
As for dungeon length, does it really have an upper limit at all? I don't think so. I like dungeon crawlers where your first dungeon is the whole 20-hour-long game and you have to go back to town multiple times
I think back to Final Fantasy Legend 2 with the dungeon / cave world. It was such a long painful dungeon that they made it optional.
Aegix_Drakan
6037
author=LockeZauthor=RyaReisenderAny game with "one giant dungeon" is going to have it broken up into floors, or stratums, or topographies, or some other sort of cutoff like that, where the dungeon changes somewhat when you go from one to the next. If a game didn't do this, it would feel like you weren't getting anywhere. People like to feel a sense of accomplishment for having beaten a section of the game. When you get to the end of the first floor of Etrian Odyssey (and the end of every floor!) you unlock a bunch of new item synths and other stuff that use ingredients obtained on the next floor, and also new sidequests in the pub, and other stuff like that. Sometimes there's also a boss or cutscene. The kind of stuff that makes you go "YEAAAAAHHHHHH"
As for dungeon length, does it really have an upper limit at all? I don't think so. I like dungeon crawlers where your first dungeon is the whole 20-hour-long game and you have to go back to town multiple times
Those moments are what make the Etrian series so awesome.
You beat the big bad boss, you take a walk down those stairs and then go "WOW" as you see the new environment you'll be exploring. Even though the game itself doesn't change, the change in environment makes it feel like it did.
Hack, Slash, Loot needed new environments. Randomly generated dungeons, but every one of them the same color.
Aegix_Drakan
6037
author=ShortStar
Hack, Slash, Loot needed new environments. Randomly generated dungeons, but every one of them the same color.
UUUUGUASAASFJASKLDJFALSKJDFADS!
Do. Not. Mention. That. HORRIBLE. Game. To. Me.
It was worthless. I'm glad I got it as part of a humble bundle with stuff that was worth it and didn't have pay for it by itself.
There was no strategy in the game. Just open door, hide in doorway to prevent more than one monster from hitting you, and pray you get a Holy weapon to heal you when you attacked. You couldn't even run away from a bad fight since any activated enemy would chase you endlessly. A good roguelike dungeon crawler (say Dungeons of Dreadmore) gives you options to deal with threats. Hack Slash Loot gave me none.
It was basically a slot machine. I gave it a good 3 hours before I had enough and deleted it.
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