ART AND YOU

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As an artist I am very glad that this is being reinforced as I have been the victim of art/resource theft before.

However, by LockeZ's logic I guess I must be an egotistical selfish artist and I therefore deserve to die 8D.

In all seriousness, I think graphics, music, eventing, programming all serve as important parts to the gammak pie so to speak and deserve to be credited.

The free resources that people like Archeia put out, seriously the least you could do would be to credit them also. We put lots of hard work into our resources, so credits is the least you can do.

As for using them without consent, you can just ask people with a simple PM or whatever works. I'm sure they'd appreciate the fact you are interested and will more than likely say "Why yes you may!"

And I like to treat people as people not as tools to be used and tossed into the trash once you are done or trodden upon like a piece of paper. I'm not a tool to be used. I'm a person who creates assets that you use but it doesn't make me a tool.

Seriously the "artists are tools / do not credit them / they are selfish" is only going to drive any and all resource makers away. And then you'll have to make everything yourself (which isn't that bad anyways, you learn a new skill!)

TLDR: Thank you for this new rule/reinforcement. It is a step in the right direction and I endorse it fully.

@mawk: Thank you for your wonderful post.
Ocean
Resident foodmonster
10503

I hope you guys like my new sonic fangame, I'm thankful for all the resources provided that I will not credit

Also it's really shitty to work hours/days/months/years and have someone using it without credit or permission. The old snes rips at least they got paid for their time and it's a general understanding I think that everyone knows what they are. Who doesn't know Chrono Trigger? But when it starts getting to taking from your peers and stuff in the interest of "but I want to make good games for community", you'll run the artists out of the community. It would be no fair for someone to quickly copy/paste something you worked hard on and MEANT for a specific project. If it's meant to be shared, go ahead and use it. Still give credit, it is not that hard!

Easiest when you're working on it as you go. When you find something, add it to your credit list and ask permission, rather than waiting when the game is done to try to remember everything.
yeah, that's a very important point. if you're doing things properly and paying due diligence as you go about making your game, crediting your contributors is something that hardly even takes any effort. framing it as an unreasonable demand in any context is silly.

and besides. if your 'art' only exists to take and take, what's even the point? why just build monuments to yourself?
author=Ocean
Easiest when you're working on it as you go. When you find something, add it to your credit list and ask permission, rather than waiting when the game is done to try to remember everything.


This is what I've learned to do to. I've got a Credits.txt in my game directory that has assets I've grabbed with the name of who to credit and a URL to where I got it. I also have a resources folder sitting around with stuff I've downloaded with a file in the root folder of where the resources are and the TOS of using them so I know what I need to do if I do use them (name/link, tell them I'm using their stuff, request permission, etc.). It's a hell of a lot better than my old method of "here are my chipsets and here are my charactersets and who knows where any of them are from". Which reminds me I should go to my old gameprofiles and try to reverse-credit those now that I'm not a dumb kid anymore.


Also not crediting for the ~glory of gammak~ can hurt future game making too. Back in the 2k days, before 2k3, there was somebody named Roco who made some nice facesets in 2k's format. It was real popular and widely used without a word of mention beyond answering "who made those facesets" (credits back then were "I made this and my buddy tested, thx!") . Eventually Roco got tired of all this abuse of her work and took her(?) ball home and the 2k scene lost a good artist and everybody went back to finding obscure SNES RPGs to rip graphics from. But I guess she was selfish for asking to be acknowledge for her hard work!

(other 2k vets please correct me if I'm wrong, this was a lo~ong time ago)
author=LockeZ
I think the egotisticalness of demanding that you be ~credited~ for something as trivial as a single piece of art is a cancer that needs to be stomped out. I am tempted to remove the credits from everything in my games just to spite you for being so petty. This policy will destroy the site.

If something makes a game better, it doesn't matter if its yours or not. Designers and artists are just tools to be used as needed to improve games. Games are what matter, and nothing else.

If something that you created makes someone else's game better, and you refuse to let them use it without crediting you, you deserve to die.

That is the most sickening post I have ever seen on this site.

If that's seriously your viewpoint, then I suggest you stop game development.

"Deserve to die"? Grow up or leave. Making such indirect death threats on a huge part of our community would normally be grounds for an instant ban, but I am charitable so I just gave you a warn.
Ratty524
The 524 is for 524 Stone Crabs
13391
author=Deckiller
author=LockeZ
I think the egotisticalness of demanding that you be ~credited~ for something as trivial as a single piece of art is a cancer that needs to be stomped out. I am tempted to remove the credits from everything in my games just to spite you for being so petty. This policy will destroy the site.

If something makes a game better, it doesn't matter if its yours or not. Designers and artists are just tools to be used as needed to improve games. Games are what matter, and nothing else.

If something that you created makes someone else's game better, and you refuse to let them use it without crediting you, you deserve to die.
That is the most sickening post I have ever seen on this site.

If that's seriously your viewpoint, then I suggest you stop game development.

Hear, hear!

LockeZ, one major point you are failing to consider is that artists put TIME and EFFORT into their resources. Even shitty art has just that put into them: TIME and EFFORT.

The reason crediting exists from the get-go is so that the people who work their asses off behind the scenes to make that final product feel like they are being represented. Yes, it is about ego, but to give you some perspective, just imagine how you'd feel if you've been passionately working days, months,even years to make a project happen and suddenly the project lead pretends you don't exist and doesn't credit you. That's a dick move. So yes, we artists ARE entitled to be credited for our work, because we are part of those people who actually care enough to help your project get made to begin with.
Frankly, I am ashamed at myself for having such poor credits in my old 2k/2k3 games. I know that was an era where everyone shared resources and things got lost in the shuffle, but we now live in a more aware time in which it's unacceptable to not credit unique visuals unless the artist doesn't mind. (The artist SHOULD want credits, because it's their work and their portfolio and their future.) Visuals and music are a HUGE driver in a game's success. Look at all the highly rated RM games out there. Most of them have a unique visual motif.
Can someone just ban LockeZ? I feel fucking disgusted after reading that filth. Designers and artists aren't fucking tools you grab out of a shed. I've been doing this for years and years, and have been an artist all my life.

I am not a fucking tool. If you said that around me your face would already be implanted in a table, you sick bastard. That post just perfectly sums up the absolute ignorance and self righteousness the RM community is looked down on for.

Seriously, I just. I need to get out. I fucking HATE just... FUCK.
I'm giving him a chance to apologize @Pizza.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5236
author=Ratty524
LockeZ, one major point you are failing to consider is that artists put TIME and EFFORT into their resources. Even shitty art has just that put into them: TIME and EFFORT.
I didn't forget about the time and effort; I just think that they're comparatively less important than the end result. The reason you put in that time and effort is so

author=Ratty524
The reason crediting exists from the get-go is so that the people who work their asses off behind the scenes to make that final product feel like they are being represented. Yes, it is about ego, but to give you some perspective, just imagine how you'd feel if you've been passionately working days, months,even years to make a project happen and suddenly the project lead pretends you don't exist and doesn't credit you. That's a dick move. So yes, we artists ARE entitled to be credited for our work, because we are part of those people who actually care enough to help your project get made to begin with.
It doesn't matter how I feel if the game gets done. It doesn't matter what happens to me if the game is improved as a result. My feelings and reputation aren't totally without value, but the value of the game is infinitely higher. What the artist wants should always come second to what improves the game.

And credits are distracting, bore the player, offer no interactivity, use up time the developer could be using to improve other parts of the game, and break the suspension of disbelief in one of the worst ways possible for the viewer.

Some of you need to get your heads out of your asses and stop imagining that the game exists for your sake. The truth is the opposite. You exist for the game's sake.
I don't even want to take the effort to respond to such a ridiculous point of view. You should post what you PM'd me, though.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5236
Pizza, learn some humility. We are all tools. Game designers exist for the sake of games.

I apologize for leading you to believe I don't think artists have any value. I think they have tremendous value and are an integral part of the game design community. I also think people's feelings and reputation have value, and that their lives have an inherent value. But I think the value of games is higher than any of those things.

Your life's value is based on the amount of joy you bring into the world. Your life has worth because of what you give to others. Entertainment is one of the surest ways to create happiness. If you are taking joy away from the world, then in a country ruled by me you'd be a criminal.

These people who want to shut down games because they don't include credits aren't artists. They're anti-artists, wanting to take art out of the world.
You're taking joy away from the world by universally insulting every artist who ever lived. Artists have every right to be credited for their work. Artists need to make a living. They need to build up a portfolio and a reputation, just like game developers. It's a hard life as an artist, and marginalizing their chances for success even further is just disgusting.

You somehow fail to realize that people need money to live, and some people want to be professional artists and game developers.
Immanuel Kant in the house, better watch out :/
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5236
How am I insulting them? I think they're incredible people, doing some of the most important work on the planet.

I just think that work is so important that its use shouldn't be restricted.
Wow. Well, this blew up, but hey, drama means more focus so at least a lot more people have seen this topic now. For that I'm glad.

LockeZ, I don't know where all this anger towards giving credit is coming from, dude. It's a pretty easy thing to do - put a name under a heading in a read me file and boom, the very least way of doing it is done. Of course, it does mean you have to keep track on who did what (but a lot of tiles and the like are easy to track down or you can do the whole 'adding name in title' for songs, so...)

Just to remind people, though - the rule currently being discussed is the one that focuses on Game Pages. Using art on your game page to show off a character's design, show inspiration for a place or creature and the like. This is what we're ordering people to credit - art taken from places like DeviantArt and other sites like it (and Google Images) and shown on game pages.

Art used in your own games is up to your discretion but while it's not currently a hard and fast rule that credits must be given for what you used in-game, it is heavily encouraged.

It made sense, many years ago, not to give credits. We had no idea where bits and pieces came from. So many communities were spread around, little shacks of RMing where people didn't know each other from one to the next. Only well-known resources like Mack and Blue were credited, and people created games with the knowledge that their engine and graphics was stolen (rips) so why bother?

The community has changed since then. There's a lot more people, a lot more artists and a lot more legality. The newer makers are now purchasable, as are new resources and it's viable to sell a game created. Add money to any equation and suddenly things have to become more organised.

It doesn't matter that you aren't selling your game, the fact that games can now be sold at all makes it a matter of import that you at least give people the due they deserve.

You want to know a very sad thing that shows this community how important it is to give credit for the things they use? Roco. A lot of you don't know who that is, even you older peeps. Ah, but you do know who she was, you just don't realise it.

Who is she then? Only a wonderful artist who did some collaboration work with Blue (the one who created all those charactersets in 2k style, you know the one - Mack and Blue) but never got the credit she deserved, leading to her leaving the community behind for good. You might know her better as the creator of this piece:



Also, the one who did all those darker-skinned, gold/silver/black/blue haired facesets. Yes. Common to almost every game at one point in RM history, and yet never credited for her work, she left the community downhearted because of this. One of the best face artists we had, gone.

And that is just one of the reasons we should aim to always give credit. Because people and their work have worth and deserve to be shown to have it.

And hey, sharing is caring. People like resources? They might like to use them too, or at least look up the creator and see what else they have to offer. It gives the creator more coverage, increasing their joy at being acknowledged/brings in more commissions for them and thus their willingness to create more is enhanced - bonus for everyone.
author=LockeZ
How am I insulting them? I think they're incredible people, doing some of the most important work on the planet.

I just think that work is so important that its use shouldn't be restricted.

Then why shouldn't they be credited for their hard work? It's a simple action. It doesn't have to be IN the game. People just need to see who made that aspect of the game. If they are impressed by the work, they may then be able to seek out that artist and commission them. That will give them more incentive to get better!

The work is restricted because artists deserve to be credited for their work, but also because they have every right to have a say in what their work lands up in. If their work ends up in a shitty game, then the artist's reputation may be damaged, and their chance of future commissions may decrease significantly.

How would you like it if something you made was published in some 15-year-old's shitty Star Wars fanfiction?

Use your brain, please. Art is a trade that takes time and effort to master. The phrase "starving artist" wasn't a fluke. Artists need every commission they can get. They have to build a portfolio and reputation. They can't just work a day job and then do their artwork at night; that will burn them out and the day job will prevent them from ever reaching their true potential as an artist. You would take that chance of professional success away from them, essentially destroying an entire school of creativity. Good luck learning how to draw in that case.

Also, I can't believe you said "How am I insulting them" when you just condemned them all to death. Unbelievable.
the wise course of action with something you consider important isn't usually to devalue it so massively. just something to consider.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5236
The anger is due to the phrasing of the OP. Your demand wasn't that we need to credit artists for our games to be accepted. Which would annoy me a bit, and I'd make sure you knew I thought credit sequences were boring and break the suspension of disbelief in games, but it wouldn't anger me like this.

But you said we need to credit artists or we could be banned. I don't find that acceptable. Once someone is banned they can't fix the problem, or post any more games in the future. You've destroyed a game, possibly multiple games, which likely would have provided hundreds of thousands of hours of collective entertainment for all the players. For the sake of what, one artist?

Placing requirements on games is something I can live with, but destroying them is something I can't.

author=Deckiller
Also, I can't believe you said "How am I insulting them" when you just condemned them all to death. Unbelievable.
The only people I condemned to death are the ones who want to end the lives of games because they used their work without permission. At that point they're not creating art. They're destroying it.

I admit that death is overkill though. They should be tossed in jail, and forced to create public domain art in place of picking up litter on highways.
author=LockeZ
And credits are distracting, bore the player, offer no interactivity, use up time the developer could be using to improve other parts of the game, and break the suspension of disbelief in one of the worst ways possible for the viewer.

I'm pretty sure the minority of people who believes this is incredibly tiny. Certainly on this forum, you're the only one.

For one, credits sequences can be used as a means of engagement at the start of your project, or to provide closure at the end. Nothing says "the end" more than a black screen with vertically scrolling text.
For two, people like credits. It's not just artistic self-congratulation and back patting. Players like to know who/where that BGM came from. 'It exists, therefore appreciate it's existence' isn't enough.