ART AND YOU

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Efforts will indeed be made. We'll contact them through various mediums (such as DA, art blogs, etc.) to ensure that there are no imposters if we're suspicious. Many members of our team are also artists themselves and know quite a few of the artists in the community, which will help with the verification process.

In cases such as the latter, the original artist would have to naturally step forward with proof that it is their material. We generally discourage using the resources of others unless you (1) have permission or (2) they have clearly been released into the public domain. However, we are not going to actively police everyone's game.

Many older 2k/2k3 games have so many resources passed around. It's a tangled web of shared art/resources from a time when the internet wasn't really as big on permissions, rights, etc. That is why we can't police this personally (nor would we want to, because we're not a dictatorship); we have to rely on the artists coming forward, and then we can enforce. Naturally, some infractions are really obvious and we'll notice right off the bat. Most cases are more subtle than that, where, like you said, it's near impossible to track down the source without said source coming forward with proof that it's theirs.

This is why we encourage artists who do not want their work shared in the public domain to be very defensive of their work, outlining specific usage criteria and the like.
BurningTyger
Hm i Wonder if i can pul somethi goff here/
1289
Good. That's a level-headed approach that I hope would even please LockeZ. Now as long as you don't hop on me for using a Weinna song in a game I'll be fine :P Which reminds me, Conor tossed me the link to the latest version of Chaos Divine. You'll find in in the summary comments.
Sailerius
did someone say angels
3304
author=Travio
author=Deckiller
The artists will report. Also, if people notice a possible issue, they could contact the artist for confirmation. Mods won't be policing things here; they will be enforcing the rules based on confirmation and consent from the artist.
Will efforts be made to ensure said person is actually the artist?

And what of materials that have been passed around to a point where finding the original artist is virtually impossible? I know I have a couple resources where, after finding them public with the phrase "I don't remember where I got these," I've tried to track the artist down and have been unsuccessful.

Easy: Don't use it.
I'd like to point out again that this isn't about policing what you put in your game but about what you show on your game profile.

If we're approached by an artist who created work that wasn't for sharing, then we'll make sure that is sorted out - as we have done multiple times in the past.

However, this rule only affects what you put on your page - art that might look like a character in your game. A good example of this is Nessiah's portraits for the Ace characters. Someone posting just the portrait up with a description saying "This is Jack" will be asked to provide a credit, even if it's to change the description to "This is Jack. (Portrait by Nessiah)". That is what this rule is aiming for.

No more grabbing random pictures from sites and using them to pretty up the page (this means backgrounds of game pages, too - even if it's an 8 point credit at the bottom of your page... add it in). Credits for artists.

That said, on the resource issue, we'll do as we've always done - if someone reports the use of something they know isn't allowed to be used by people (that someone being either the artist or just a person who knows about it) then we'll look into it. An example of this is if someone took, say, Wilfred the Hero resources and used it in their game. Now, we all know that those resources were made for just WtH, so we'd need proof from the person using them that they had received permission to use them.

That is what we've always done and it's always been a part of the community (except in those dark areas where anything is allowed) - not stealing fellow RMers' work.
BurningTyger
Hm i Wonder if i can pul somethi goff here/
1289
Clear enough. I vote this meeting be adjourned.
I'm glad this got unlocked too and I wanted to bring up an important point especially to LockeZ.

A lot of the artworks used in this site don't even have the permission from the creator to use their works on your game or any game at all. And a lot even ignore the wishes of the artists on their site to NOT USE THE ARTWORK ANYWHERE ELSE. Think about it for a moment. That's stealing and not crediting their source means you pretty much claimed that you created/owned that artwork.

Art, Music, etc. all existed before games. They're a symbol of people's passion to share a vision or a message. It does not necessarily mean that they would want just anyone to touch something close to them in a deep way.

Games can be considered as an art form as well. If you insist on ignoring that some people do treat their own games as an art piece in the same way they view art. Then you're just saying that go ahead, trace over the Mona Lisa, give her blonde hair, blue eyes and whatever. And change the title of the artwork. It's FOR THE SAKE OF ART. Nobody would accept that.

It's like, this is your RL Wife, you can bang her if you want. Does that sit right with you? While for some people that this is a hard perspective to understand, a lot of people get attached to fictional or technically intangible things.

Humans are complex sentient beings. We're not 'tools.' Everyone does things for a purpose. Games might be a work of passion but it's still a self-serving medium. You want more games since you prolly like the concept of games. Some make games because they want to tell something about themselves or their own experience. Or a story that the just can't get over with. Or just some technical genius.

Without that motivation, the phrase, "for the games" isn't enough to kick off the efforts of anyone who contributed to the game's final product. Failure to acknowledge the contributors of the project is a bad mentality we got from Rm2k/3 times and shows an image on how we don't appreciate our community. Especially when you wished them to die.

While I personally didn't care and just laughed it off, I just realized you just asked the majority, if not all, of the amazing people that helped our community grow to just die. We already do charitable work for one another. The last thing you want is to make them feel thankless. Nobody is 100% martyr.

Also ps. I do watch credit scenes. And people react to this by pointing out a singularity about what they like about a medium. X composer is great, Y artist is amazing. I want to see more of their works. To the internet on our private search!

If Yoko Kanno was never credited for her work on Cowboy Bebop or any anime or game she worked on we will never know who made the OST for that amazing anime and roll on our beds wondering just who it is. I know I go crazy when I don't know who made the amazing pixel art in a kickstarter game.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5236
author=Liberty
The harsher the penalty (if they don't listen) the more likely they are to do the right thing. Like I already said earlier, we're not going to ban a person just because they couldn't find the correct credit fast, but if they do act like assholes (as, again, has been done before) or claim the piece when it's been proven that it's not their work, then yes, banning.
But you can actually just do the right thing for them.

You don't even have to delete the game. That's overkill. You can just delete the offending image from their game profile. Problem solved.

I mean lack of crediting just seems like such a trivial issue to punish someone so severely for, even if they refuse to fix it. The final punishment if they refuse to fix it could be like -25 makerscore or something.

(and frankly as long as it's credited in the game download, it doesn't need to be credited on the website also, does it?)

author=Archeia_Nessiah
Stuff
I know people make games for a lot of reasons. I can't expect other people to agree with my reasons, or with my views of the role of art in society. But I still want to make them known! And I don't want people who feel the same way as me to be in danger of being banned from RMN if they refuse to compromise.

author=LockeZ, February 2012
I don't even think professional games and films should have credits to be honest, I think they should just list the director and the star actors at most, and that's only so viewers can seek out similar films. Sometimes I wonder if maybe there's something wrong with society when everyone demands personal recognition for work on anything creative and it's not enough for them to just know that they improved the product. Like I can understand wanting money, but credits don't do anything for you except boost your ego. If it's just for the sake of your resume, you don't need your name on it any more than you need your name inscribed on the wall at your office job to prove you worked there.

And it only happens for creative works. We don't attach credits to non-creative work, we don't read off a list of all the management and workers and contributors every time you get your TV repaired or buy a new sofa, or even when erecting a building or installing a multi-million dollar sound system. That's weird, right? What makes creative work deserve individual credits displayed to every consumer moreso than non-creative work?
No, I don't believe we can change game pages. Or at least I can't. Not sure if Decky or Kentona can. Besides, we don't want toxic people in the community - toxins spread and it is toxic behaviour and attitude to take, take, take and never give a shout-out or thanks in return.

Why shouldn't we demand that people abide by rules? If anyone decided to jump on someone else in personal attacks - like what happened in this thread - then they fall to the rules and will get warned/banned depending on how they react. We have rules, we let you all know the rules, we expect the rules to be followed and if people challenge the rules we will listen but we are under no obligation to change them, especially when there's no good reason to do so. Which, in this case, there is not.

It's a good rule and it's not going away. In fact, I'm ashamed that we hadn't had it added years ago, but hey, better late than never.

It's not stepping on your precious rights to use images you find, just asking that you give credit where it's due and add a name to that image. Use it in your game, use it on your game page, make a game around them - as long as they're not stolen, we don't care! But giving them the credit of a name in a read me file at the least is just the decent thing to do.

FFS, it's not a hard concept and doesn't take long to do. But, once again, this is about game pages - credit that shit or erase it. We don't want to have to argue to the ends of the earth and back that you put up one measly credit for each piece of art you use to pretty your page up, but if you act like an ass and refuse to do it? Ban. You know the rules now and we won't stand for it. Done, dusted, over.


Edit:
And I don't want people who feel the same way as me to be in danger of being banned from RMN if they refuse to compromise.
Uh... that's how most people get banned from the site anyway. They get told not to do something but still do it. Just abide by the rules, ffs. It's not a hard concept - if someone continuously double and triple posts even after being told not to? Ban. If someone keeps spamming a thread or attacking a person after being told to drop it? Ban. If someone tries to hack the site or threatens a member of the site? PermaBan. If someone doesn't take down an image or at least add a name to it after being told to? Ban. If someone claims stolen work as theirs? Permaban.

Frankly, it's not forever - it's, what, 3 months off the site? And besides, warnings first, bans after, but before all that, PMs and talking. People will get told to do it, people will do it or take it down. Those are the options. Don't want to credit? Take it down. It's the same with vulgar images. Either censor or take it down. Refusal to do so leads once more to banning.

Rules. Follow them.
author=LockeZ
I know people make games for a lot of reasons. I can't expect other people to agree with my reasons, or with my views of the role of art in society. But I still want to make them known! And I don't want people who feel the same way as me to be in danger of being banned from RMN if they refuse to compromise.

Your reason of almost being banned in RMN is for your death wish on people having an opinion though.

author=LockeZ, February 2012
And it only happens for creative works. We don't attach credits to non-creative work, we don't read off a list of all the management and workers and contributors every time you get your TV repaired or buy a new sofa, or even when erecting a building or installing a multi-million dollar sound system. That's weird, right? What makes creative work deserve individual credits displayed to every consumer moreso than non-creative work?

People actually get recognition on inventing something first. And some people BUY the rights for the product so they don't have to credit people.

And comparing Technical Work to Creative work where, in Creative Work, recognition can get you miles, if not the most important, in your career is something you shouldn't really compare. The more you make a presence with your art, the higher chances people will recognize your talent. In Technical Work, do hands on and you can do something. You don't have to worry about -style-.

And Programmers as well deserve this recognition since their style in their code actually complement certain artists. It might seem technical for some people but the artist-programmer chemistry actually matter a lot to their individual style. I would explain it better but it's something that just happens on a partnership.

I'm talking about as an indie developer than a corporate person hiring and buying the rights of materials they can get. And even then it's still better to have a game record that you worked on a game since Game Companies come and go but a Game is a testament that you contributed to it.

It's still a memorabilia that you were a part of that game too. There's nothing wrong with that. Plus flaunt it to your kids.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5236
I wasn't talking about me getting warned for being an asshole, which was probably justified. I was talking about Liberty's policy of potentially banning people if they refuse to follow this new rule.

I guess I'm not really sure what your point was with the rest of your last post. I wasn't saying it should be secret that you did things. Just that you don't need your name on a billboard. It's enough that, if someone wants to find out who did this work, they can find out you did it. If someone calls Square-Enix and asks who did the quality control for spell animations for Final Fantasy 13, they can find out it was you. You can put it on your resume and tell anyone who cares. It shouldn't be necessary to tell people who weren't asking, though. That's just stroking the artist's ego.
That's just stroking the artist's ego.

No, it's fucking not. It's about respect, courtesy and realising that YOU HAVE NO FUCKING RIGHT TO JUST TAKE AND USE. The least you can do is add a fucking credit if you use something to enhance your own page. You didn't make it so you don't deserve people thinking that you did. It's also about letting people know about that artist because most of the time the art is taken from those who need that recognition to make enough money to survive.

You have two choices: Give credit or do not. But if you do not and prove to be resistant to either removal of said image or adding the credit, then fuck, good-bye to bad news.
I like turtles.

edit: LockeZ, I recommend just stepping back and being quiet about this issue. Just a suggestion and all. We all know your stance and let's not perpetuate things.
marimo
Nessiah's Seme-kun
2458
author=LockeZ
It's enough that, if someone wants to find out who did this work, they can find out you did it.


Uh Sir.

author=LockeZ
If someone calls Square-Enix and asks who did the quality control for spell animations for Final Fantasy 13, they can find out it was you.


Uh...no. The reason why they have a list of credits at the end is to pay respect to all of the collective effort that went into creating the game and ALSO so that there doesn't need to be someone (or very many someones) calling up the head of Square-enix to know who did what (and as well known as square enix is, this would be a monumental effort to even keep up with that I wager). It's not so difficult to set up a list of credits so I'm really not sure why you're resisting this rule.

author=LockeZ
It shouldn't be necessary to tell people who weren't asking, though. That's just stroking the artist's ego.


You're completely missing the point of why we credit anyone. It's not ego stroking, it's an acknowledgement that YOU yourself know and appreciate the work of everyone else on the game. If you don't want to credit someone, don't use their work. It's really that simple. You can't insist on using the work of others and then not credit them because you don't like being ~forced~ to.

It's because people refuse or are too lazy to credit that this rule is being installed in the first place.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5236
But... that's not just taking and using, nor is it causing anyone to think you made it. That's hiring someone, paying them for their work, and making sure anyone interested knows who was responsible for the work. Just without a giant list of credits shown to every single person in the world.

I mean, imagine if your mousepad had a list of credits on the front of it, listing every person involved in making the mousepad. That would be ridiculous, right?

Edit: Deckiller, I have. My original argument ended when the topic was locked the first time. I'm talking about commercial projects now, because I think the whole phenomenon is sort of crazy. (And also I wanted to suggest the idea of mods just removing the image if it's not credited, and see if Liberty liked that idea.)
author=LockeZ
But... that's not just taking and using, nor is it causing anyone to think you made it. That's hiring someone, paying them for their work, and making sure anyone interested knows who was responsible for the work. Just without a giant list of credits shown to every single person in the world.

I mean, imagine if your mousepad had a list of credits on the front of it, listing every person involved in making the mousepad. That would be ridiculous, right?


Are you seriously comparing something creative like art to an assembly line job?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5236
Well, that's what I'm asking. Why does creative work get credited publically but non-creative work doesn't? It seems like a huge double-standard.
Let's remove this double standard then!

Effective immediately, you won't know who made games on RMN. We are removing all usernames from game pages and all creator feedback will be anonymously handled via a support ticket system.
marimo
Nessiah's Seme-kun
2458
The difference IS. That when you use someone else's art, you're using their property. If they want to be credited, you credit them.

Then you have people who don't bother asking for permission and then don't bother crediting. This rule is just to circumvent that sort of situation. If you can't bother asking, AT LEAST CREDIT. (Though I still maintain that you should ask the artist too, if it wasn't made for your project specifically.)

Not everyone who did artwork for the games here were paid for everything, either, but the people who made your mouse were!
And the cycle continues. Locking.

Edit: we could go into point and counterpoint with this whole "creative vs. non creative works" crediting debate. This is not the venue (edit: the topic) for that. Simply put, "it's how we do things".
Look, the reason for this topic is to let people know about the new rule so they aren't caught unprepared. Mission complete. From now on, if you are caught breaking the rule, shame on you. You'll be the one to deal with the consequences. Done. No more to be said. Over and fucking out.