Full Games List
Featured Games
New Games
Reviews
Media
Images
Blogs
Game Updates
Images Feedback Summary
Game Design Highlights
Tutorials
Articles
Scripts
Utilities / Plugins
Resources
Engines
Engine Bulletins
What is Makerscore?
Past Events
Achievements
Misaos
Forums
Post History
Chat
New to RMN?
Full Store List
RMN Music Pack (free)
DIFFERENT WAYS OF LEARNING MAGIC/SKILLS
Posts
Luiishu535
View playlists
CloseI've been thinking on this for a little while now, mostly since some people complained about the enemy giving to little exp in my game.
The reason I made it like that is because you learn magic/skills by leveling up. Gaining the latter, powerful skills early on would break the balance, which I did not want.
After playing the original FF, I realized the other way of learning magic by buying it from shops.
The reason I enjoyed this was because I could level up a lot faster without necessarily making the game a cakewalk.
In my game, the estimated end level would normally be around 30, meanwhile in FF, you could easily get level 50+ and even be maxed out to 99 before facing the final boss. If that would be the case in my game, it would of most certain be a cakewalk.
I'm basically wondering what you guys think about this. Do you enjoy the sweet touch of learning your magic by leveling, or do you rather prefer the majestic excellence of buying magic from shops?
From a developers perspective, I believe the second option is easier to implement to your game.
The reason I made it like that is because you learn magic/skills by leveling up. Gaining the latter, powerful skills early on would break the balance, which I did not want.
After playing the original FF, I realized the other way of learning magic by buying it from shops.
The reason I enjoyed this was because I could level up a lot faster without necessarily making the game a cakewalk.
In my game, the estimated end level would normally be around 30, meanwhile in FF, you could easily get level 50+ and even be maxed out to 99 before facing the final boss. If that would be the case in my game, it would of most certain be a cakewalk.
I'm basically wondering what you guys think about this. Do you enjoy the sweet touch of learning your magic by leveling, or do you rather prefer the majestic excellence of buying magic from shops?
From a developers perspective, I believe the second option is easier to implement to your game.
Avee
5794
Both are unoriginal and overused, so I can't say I prefer one over the other.
I like learning spells through leveling when the stat bonuses granted by levels are also very useful (DQ3). It makes fighting and earning EXP more meaningful and more enjoyable to me.
I also like how Wild Arms handled magic shops. You find Crest Graphs around the world and inside treasure chests. Magic shops then let you pick which spell you want to buy (you have access to all spells right away). But you can only have as many spells as you have Crest Graphs.
I like learning spells through leveling when the stat bonuses granted by levels are also very useful (DQ3). It makes fighting and earning EXP more meaningful and more enjoyable to me.
I also like how Wild Arms handled magic shops. You find Crest Graphs around the world and inside treasure chests. Magic shops then let you pick which spell you want to buy (you have access to all spells right away). But you can only have as many spells as you have Crest Graphs.
author=luiishu535
meanwhile in FF, you could easily get level 50+ and even be maxed out to 99 before facing the final boss.
Nope. FF1 level cap is 50.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I can probably name almost as many ways of learning skills as I can RPGs. Maybe more - it's not at all unusual for a single game to have five or six different ways of learning skills in it. FF7 for example has some skills bought from shops, others found in dungeons, others learned by having the first two types of spells equipped for long enough that the spells gain experience points and level up, and others gained by using your existing skills a certain number of times. Choosing which skills to bring into battle once you own them is also rather complex - it uses one system for limit breaks and a second system for other types of skills.
Regarding levelling up: I find that the ability to gain a large amount of power by leveling up makes a game's difficulty not matter. If all your power comes from grinding, then the game can never actually be difficult no matter what the designer does. You can easily become twice as strong or ten times as strong if you want to, and doing so doesn't require succeeding at anything difficult whatsoever. So you can be the worst player ever and still win, it just takes a little longer. Even if you don't see it this way - I hear people who like grinding for power because they feel it lets them choose their own difficulty level - I don't think it's good to have too much of your game's power come from grinding.
Most people like to become more powerful by succeeding, not by grinding. It is vastly more rewarding. The downside is that the player loses the ability to easily boost their power if they cannot succeed - but giving them the tools to succeed is your job as a game designer.
If you do have level ups that give spells, I would recommend some sort of scaling level cap. Like making enemies stop giving experience once you're three levels above them. Otherwise the game is, as you said, a cakewalk - for people who grind, anyway. If someone grinds less than they're supposed to, this method can still make the game really hard. Giving the player more of their power through other avenues instead of XP grinding is my personal preference, so that the player's power at any point in the game is more predictable.
Unlocking new shops that sell new skills by advancing in the story is a very effective way of rewarding the player for succeeding. There are lots of other ways that also do that though. They can be absorbed by stealing the souls of defeated enemies, or learned as blue magic, or learned by wearing certain equipment, or directly earned from defeating certain bosses like summon spells in many games, or unlocked through a talent tree that you get points in by earning achievements.
Regarding levelling up: I find that the ability to gain a large amount of power by leveling up makes a game's difficulty not matter. If all your power comes from grinding, then the game can never actually be difficult no matter what the designer does. You can easily become twice as strong or ten times as strong if you want to, and doing so doesn't require succeeding at anything difficult whatsoever. So you can be the worst player ever and still win, it just takes a little longer. Even if you don't see it this way - I hear people who like grinding for power because they feel it lets them choose their own difficulty level - I don't think it's good to have too much of your game's power come from grinding.
Most people like to become more powerful by succeeding, not by grinding. It is vastly more rewarding. The downside is that the player loses the ability to easily boost their power if they cannot succeed - but giving them the tools to succeed is your job as a game designer.
If you do have level ups that give spells, I would recommend some sort of scaling level cap. Like making enemies stop giving experience once you're three levels above them. Otherwise the game is, as you said, a cakewalk - for people who grind, anyway. If someone grinds less than they're supposed to, this method can still make the game really hard. Giving the player more of their power through other avenues instead of XP grinding is my personal preference, so that the player's power at any point in the game is more predictable.
Unlocking new shops that sell new skills by advancing in the story is a very effective way of rewarding the player for succeeding. There are lots of other ways that also do that though. They can be absorbed by stealing the souls of defeated enemies, or learned as blue magic, or learned by wearing certain equipment, or directly earned from defeating certain bosses like summon spells in many games, or unlocked through a talent tree that you get points in by earning achievements.
@Jude:
Nope. FF1 level cap is 50
I was referring to Dawn of Souls(the GBA version).
@LockeZ:
The FF games have indeed a lot of different mechanics regarding magic learning. I especially thought the blue magic mechanic was cool.
My game wasn't necessarily a "grind your way to power" type of game, all battles(even RE) could be fairly cleared if you had a good strategy. There were some skills that required a certain level that could make the fights easier/faster, but it would mostly not change the overall difficulty.
Note that not ALL skills in my game are learnt from leveling: some skills can be learned by finding Skill Books, while the Overdrives are learnt from clearing a world/beating the main bosses.
I've always liked the mechanic from the Grandia series. You basically earn SP(Skill Points) & MP(Magic Points) from battles, which you later spend on learning your spells/skills. The thing here though is that it is not the characters themselves that learn the spells, but the Magic Eggs(which can be equipped by whichever character in your party you'd like).
Customization is usually golden RPGs.
Unlocking stuff in games have always felt rewarding though. ^^
Nope. FF1 level cap is 50
I was referring to Dawn of Souls(the GBA version).
@LockeZ:
The FF games have indeed a lot of different mechanics regarding magic learning. I especially thought the blue magic mechanic was cool.
My game wasn't necessarily a "grind your way to power" type of game, all battles(even RE) could be fairly cleared if you had a good strategy. There were some skills that required a certain level that could make the fights easier/faster, but it would mostly not change the overall difficulty.
Note that not ALL skills in my game are learnt from leveling: some skills can be learned by finding Skill Books, while the Overdrives are learnt from clearing a world/beating the main bosses.
I've always liked the mechanic from the Grandia series. You basically earn SP(Skill Points) & MP(Magic Points) from battles, which you later spend on learning your spells/skills. The thing here though is that it is not the characters themselves that learn the spells, but the Magic Eggs(which can be equipped by whichever character in your party you'd like).
Customization is usually golden RPGs.
Unlocking stuff in games have always felt rewarding though. ^^
RyaReisender
200
How is "spells by leveling" related to how fast you level up?
Just make it one spell every 3 levels instead of every level. Problem solved.
I personally don't like the "buy spell" system too much because you learn too many new spells at once and then for a long time none. I rather would like to learn spells slowly one by one but with shorter intervals in between.
Yeah the prices could be so high that you can't afford all at once, but then that's a second thing I don't like: Having to decide. Of course there's no indication which of those spells I need for the next dungeon, so there's no point giving me that choice in the first place.
Nah, what I like most is still learning by leveling. Though admittly I liked the Esper system in FFVI too and Materia in FFVII was ok as well.
Skills by equip needs to be done well, though. Often it ends up with me having to keep switching equips and that makes the game too menu heavy.
Just make it one spell every 3 levels instead of every level. Problem solved.
I personally don't like the "buy spell" system too much because you learn too many new spells at once and then for a long time none. I rather would like to learn spells slowly one by one but with shorter intervals in between.
Yeah the prices could be so high that you can't afford all at once, but then that's a second thing I don't like: Having to decide. Of course there's no indication which of those spells I need for the next dungeon, so there's no point giving me that choice in the first place.
Nah, what I like most is still learning by leveling. Though admittly I liked the Esper system in FFVI too and Materia in FFVII was ok as well.
Skills by equip needs to be done well, though. Often it ends up with me having to keep switching equips and that makes the game too menu heavy.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=RyaReisender
How is "spells by leveling" related to how fast you level up?
Just make it one spell every 3 levels instead of every level. Problem solved.
How is "how fast you level up" related to anything that anyone said? What problem do you think you're solving, exactly?
author=RyaReisenderNever mind. You're the worst human being on the planet to be making RPGs. This is a genre where the only gameplay that exists is making intelligent decisions. I've learned from your posts that you actively hate everything that's enjoyable about RPGs. Don't even answer the above question. I don't want to hear anything you have to say any more.
that's a second thing I don't like: Having to decide.
RyaReisender
200
You really have to learn that not everyone share's your test.
And I'll point out the OP anyway:
He clearly states he made his game grindy because he doesn't want player to learn powerful skills early on and because people complained about it he now thinks about different approaches.
Well my reply is, make powerful skills be learned at later levels.
And I'll point out the OP anyway:
I've been thinking on this for a little while now, mostly since some people complained about the enemy giving to little exp in my game.
The reason I made it like that is because you learn magic/skills by leveling up. Gaining the latter, powerful skills early on would break the balance, which I did not want.
He clearly states he made his game grindy because he doesn't want player to learn powerful skills early on and because people complained about it he now thinks about different approaches.
Well my reply is, make powerful skills be learned at later levels.
One way is to not make enemies random encounters and focus on strategy for battles instead of just damage-dealing. That is, make the skills count and not the levels themselves.
There are so many ways to add skills to a game. Just looking at one of my older ones where each character has their own way of learning, I've got - Blue magic (learning by seeing the enemy cast a spell), spell books (one-use items that can be bought or found and teach a spell), equipment binding (skills are bound to a weapon and if you change the weapon your skills change too), weapon levelling (skills are bound to a weapon type and level up to grant new spells, but when you change the weapon you change your skills as well - though in this one I allowed the mastering of a weapon to allow you to keep one skill permanently), mixology (mixing things in battle - usually is items but in this case elements: pick two and add a modifier to create a different spell. For example Fire and Earth will make earthquake, add power modifier to increase the damage or an affliction modifier to inflict the enemy with stun), mime (repeat what an ally or enemy does), puppetry (take control of an enemy and use them against others, thus allowing you to use whatever skills they have)... there's a lot of different ways to learn skills and you don't need to make the skills learned permanent, either.
There are so many ways to add skills to a game. Just looking at one of my older ones where each character has their own way of learning, I've got - Blue magic (learning by seeing the enemy cast a spell), spell books (one-use items that can be bought or found and teach a spell), equipment binding (skills are bound to a weapon and if you change the weapon your skills change too), weapon levelling (skills are bound to a weapon type and level up to grant new spells, but when you change the weapon you change your skills as well - though in this one I allowed the mastering of a weapon to allow you to keep one skill permanently), mixology (mixing things in battle - usually is items but in this case elements: pick two and add a modifier to create a different spell. For example Fire and Earth will make earthquake, add power modifier to increase the damage or an affliction modifier to inflict the enemy with stun), mime (repeat what an ally or enemy does), puppetry (take control of an enemy and use them against others, thus allowing you to use whatever skills they have)... there's a lot of different ways to learn skills and you don't need to make the skills learned permanent, either.
@RyaReisender:
I did make the powerful skills available at later levels. It's a pretty long game(50+ hours), but I did not necessarily make it grindy. The actual problem in this case was that some players could not find good strategies against the enemies & bosses, therefore some people thought that grinding was the only solution.
I think it's more fun and rewarding when you level up more frequently. What I could've done for my game: give all enemies and bosses more xp, while some skills are learned every 5-6 levels, instead 1-3.
@Liberty:
Those mechanics sounds interesting, Liberty! Is this game of yours available in one for or another?
Also, I believe that everyone has their different tastes, but I really think that choices and customization is kind of what it's originally about. I have only tried out one "pen and paper RPG"(something my friends came up with) and it all came down to the power of one anothers decisions. Make the right choice: you win, make the wrong choice: you die.
I did make the powerful skills available at later levels. It's a pretty long game(50+ hours), but I did not necessarily make it grindy. The actual problem in this case was that some players could not find good strategies against the enemies & bosses, therefore some people thought that grinding was the only solution.
I think it's more fun and rewarding when you level up more frequently. What I could've done for my game: give all enemies and bosses more xp, while some skills are learned every 5-6 levels, instead 1-3.
@Liberty:
Those mechanics sounds interesting, Liberty! Is this game of yours available in one for or another?
Also, I believe that everyone has their different tastes, but I really think that choices and customization is kind of what it's originally about. I have only tried out one "pen and paper RPG"(something my friends came up with) and it all came down to the power of one anothers decisions. Make the right choice: you win, make the wrong choice: you die.
I think I may have a solution. How about learning skills from "teachers" (e.g. when you level up you don't get new spells, you have to buy them). Payment for those may be various - exp, gold, rare items (or in case you game have crafting items that are very very expensive to craft) are all the options.
Plus it is easy to setup "classless" gameplay with such system in place. I've always liked games that let you be powerful mage wearing heavy armor and who can use sword or axe if magic runs out.
Plus it is easy to setup "classless" gameplay with such system in place. I've always liked games that let you be powerful mage wearing heavy armor and who can use sword or axe if magic runs out.
I (copout) would prefer both, since it allows more room for strategy. But if it had to be one over the other, I'd say the latter. This is simply because you can choose the moves that are available to you that you can use to your own purposes. Choose the skills that you really like and create a strategy out of them. The con to this would be that you might get stuck if you get the wrong build. But perhaps that's a good thing. It worked in BioShock (some may disagree on this).
@luiishu: Not yet. The game is a WIP and some of these will probably be taken out since I found it a little much for just one game but most of them will still be part of it.
@Rave:
That is a good idea, since the game I'm thinking about: you play mostly as students (with teachers/masters as the students guide). It would not be exactly class free I think, since the students are mainly focused to master one element. It might be possible to make it class free though, or at least have the characters being able to learn from 3 elements, but they can only pick one.
@CashmereCat:
I believe it worked good in Bioshock mainly because you played as one character. Mixing it up to a degree wouldn't hurt, I guess.
How it could end up in one of my game:
For a story reason, the students you play as will learn most magic/skills from their masters/teachers in the first half of the game. At the second half, the students will be forced to learn magic on their own, in order to grow stronger independently(also, some masters will disappear). They will mostly learn magic/skills by leveling from here on, but they could also be able to learn magic from shops and libraries etc.
That is a good idea, since the game I'm thinking about: you play mostly as students (with teachers/masters as the students guide). It would not be exactly class free I think, since the students are mainly focused to master one element. It might be possible to make it class free though, or at least have the characters being able to learn from 3 elements, but they can only pick one.
@CashmereCat:
I believe it worked good in Bioshock mainly because you played as one character. Mixing it up to a degree wouldn't hurt, I guess.
How it could end up in one of my game:
For a story reason, the students you play as will learn most magic/skills from their masters/teachers in the first half of the game. At the second half, the students will be forced to learn magic on their own, in order to grow stronger independently(also, some masters will disappear). They will mostly learn magic/skills by leveling from here on, but they could also be able to learn magic from shops and libraries etc.
caparo
25
As an alternative, you could make it so that players gain access to the better skills only after they complete a trial quest (or exam).
Kind of like a rank up quest that unlocks better stuff in the shops/library; or the masters deciding that the students are skilled enough to learn the higher rank skills.
Kind of like a rank up quest that unlocks better stuff in the shops/library; or the masters deciding that the students are skilled enough to learn the higher rank skills.
Make your skills more situational. There's a reason why Terra learns Fire at Lv 3, Fira at lv 22 and Firaga at l.43. These are mostly non-situational spells, and until she learns Holy at L. 57, they are her only directly offensive options (With the exception of Drain at l.12. but it is weak and indirect as its purpose is more on the means of sustain than actual damage.)
That's ~20 levels between each direct damage spell.
The rest of her arsenal is rather situational and indirect, such as status management and Teleport.
BTW Since you're looking at Final Fantasy 1 for reference, I suggest looking at FF4. They earn skills by leveling, too.
Look at Rydia's LV chart in here :D
As you can see, she gets a LOT of magic, but most of it is highly situational, so when she levels and learns Sight, she doesn't really get overpowered, haha
Hope I helped ;w;
That's ~20 levels between each direct damage spell.
The rest of her arsenal is rather situational and indirect, such as status management and Teleport.
BTW Since you're looking at Final Fantasy 1 for reference, I suggest looking at FF4. They earn skills by leveling, too.
Look at Rydia's LV chart in here :D
As you can see, she gets a LOT of magic, but most of it is highly situational, so when she levels and learns Sight, she doesn't really get overpowered, haha
Hope I helped ;w;
Someoneman
1318
My idea for a skill system is that there are skill tokens hidden in chests, as sidequest rewards, and as rare monster drops, and once you have enough you can go to a combat school to exchange them for new skills (alternatively, you can have this at save points, or even in the menu so you can learn new skills anytime).
Also, every character has their own type of token, avoiding the difficult question of whether to use all your tokens on teaching one character ultra-powerful skills or having a well-balanced team.
Of course, you'd need to find a good balance between the cost of skills and the frequency at which tokens are found, so you don't end up with Ultima after the first dungeon or are still stuck casting Lv.1 Fireball against the final boss.
Extra idea: While writing this post, I had an idea for an alternate version of this system where you can also remove skills from you characters and get refunded your tokens, allowing more flexibility and keeping you from screwing yourself over permanently by learning the wrong skills.
Also, every character has their own type of token, avoiding the difficult question of whether to use all your tokens on teaching one character ultra-powerful skills or having a well-balanced team.
Of course, you'd need to find a good balance between the cost of skills and the frequency at which tokens are found, so you don't end up with Ultima after the first dungeon or are still stuck casting Lv.1 Fireball against the final boss.
Extra idea: While writing this post, I had an idea for an alternate version of this system where you can also remove skills from you characters and get refunded your tokens, allowing more flexibility and keeping you from screwing yourself over permanently by learning the wrong skills.
I believe there will be different ways of learning skills in my (next) game then.^^
I've always tried to have the point when the character learns a skill to be convenient(situational). I also like to add in some extra skills that may not be as important at first glance, but if used correctly, they'll end up giving the player more strategies to take on enemies.
@Someoneman:
You're idea is interesting and I think it would actually fit in the game I'm thinking of. I'll probably try to implement something like this.
EDIT: Maybe I should give FFIV a shot...
I've always tried to have the point when the character learns a skill to be convenient(situational). I also like to add in some extra skills that may not be as important at first glance, but if used correctly, they'll end up giving the player more strategies to take on enemies.
@Someoneman:
You're idea is interesting and I think it would actually fit in the game I'm thinking of. I'll probably try to implement something like this.
EDIT: Maybe I should give FFIV a shot...
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I like having new gameplay to explore as the game continues. Once every gameplay system in the game has been fully revealed and explored, I start to get bored. So introducing a new skill learning system for each character makes perfect sense to me. It spreads them out over the game.
Then I believe the game I'm planning won't bore you in that manner. The game will more or less be divided in two parts. One part where you mainly act as a Student, following orders and going on various missions for and WITH your teachers.
At the turning point of the game, this type of plot and gameplay will be somewhat changed. I mean, the basic core of the gameplay will still be there, but other things will be different. You will be able to play and explore the world more freely, learn skills on your own, since your teachers will be more or less gone. That also means that the player won't follow orders anymore.
I really like when games introduce you to new mechanics(say, a type of puzzle for example) in the beginning of a game. At that point, the puzzle is quite simple. After you've cleared it, you won't run into puzzles like that until much later in the game. Once you finally do, the puzzle will prove itself to be quite a challenge.
I like this because it makes the things you learn matter in the end. In general, I WANT to find use from things I've previously learned!
At the turning point of the game, this type of plot and gameplay will be somewhat changed. I mean, the basic core of the gameplay will still be there, but other things will be different. You will be able to play and explore the world more freely, learn skills on your own, since your teachers will be more or less gone. That also means that the player won't follow orders anymore.
I really like when games introduce you to new mechanics(say, a type of puzzle for example) in the beginning of a game. At that point, the puzzle is quite simple. After you've cleared it, you won't run into puzzles like that until much later in the game. Once you finally do, the puzzle will prove itself to be quite a challenge.
I like this because it makes the things you learn matter in the end. In general, I WANT to find use from things I've previously learned!
