META-MAPPING

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Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
So here's another topic--not a super broad one--that I've been wondering about.

Let's say you're about to map an area in your game. Because well, games need stuff to do, and stuff to do needs places to happen, so we all need to make maps so that we can put the stuff from the database places players can find, use, and/or fight it (a necessary evil where I'm concerned, I'm not a fan of mapping, and it feels more like a chore to me than other aspects of game making, bla bla bla I digress).

Anyway this thread isn't about mapping exactly, but it's about um...what to map. (Clarification: I am talking about "area" or "field" maps, not "world maps".)

I mean, you have an idea of the story of your game and the locations it will require the characters to walk through. You know something like "this is a medium-sized forest, this is a small castle, this is a huge cavern, this is a massive space station" whatever that's good. And maybe you've even had some practical ideas like "I want this dungeon area to be 6-12 maps large" or "the PCs are only going to walk through a tiny corner of this space station, so I only need to map that" or whatever, which is great.

But what do you do next? Do you jump in mapping right away, or is there some kind of preparatory process that acts like an interlocutor? Do you create a rudimentary map i.e. a diagram of the area in image editing software like paint.net, to show how many maps the area will be comprised of and how they connect? Maybe you like to do it on graph paper or construction paper, old school/kindergarten style? Do you create a simple textual document with an idea of the flow of the area? Something else entirely?

This is the area I find myself struggling with and looking for tips on. See, I've always found "mapping" i.e. actually laying the tiles down horribly tedious. But now I'm experiencing a new phenomenon where basically like I find the step right before that, figuring out what exactly I'm going to map, to be terribly daunting without a "meta-map" of the maps that I'm about to map. This never used to happen before and I'm not entirely sure why. My current guess is that before I was in high school or college, and this meant I had lots of boring classes I had to suffer through, during which I could think about and plan ahead what I wanted to map in my game. So when I actually opened the editor, I had a plan firmly in mind. Nowadays, when I'm not doing RPG Making, I'm usually not thinking about RPG Making. I've got a lot of other projects tying up the mental bandwidth.

Anyway I think "mapping best practices" gets talked about a lot but I can't remember seeing as many discussions of meta-mapping practices, so I thought it was an interesting topic for discussion. (Final thought: I'm not talking about making a sketch map or diagram of a single individual MAP before you map it. That's a level of detail and perfectionism that is scary to me, I'd never get anything done. I'm talking about the on-paper planning steps prior to mapping out a large area consisting of multiple maps.)

Bonus Question: What do you find to be the sweet spot or sweet spot range, in tiles (RPG Maker VX Ace tiles) for maps of various types i.e. towns, forests, dungeons, houses, whatever.

Bonus Question 2: How do you add the illusion of three dimensionality to (sequences of) fundamentally 2D maps i.e. for mountains and valleys and whatnot?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Hmm. I draw out the outlines of maps in MS Paint for complex maps - ones with multiple interactive elements such as puzzles, branches and locked doors. I don't do any more than just the outline.

For maps that are simpler, where the location of each thing on the map isn't super important as long as the player can get there, I really just open up the editor and start creating the space.

I do most of the decorations as I go, rather than waiting until all of the ground and walls are there, which is technically a bad practice - but it really helps me stay interested. My ADD prevents me from doing all of one thing before moving to the next, I flip back and forth a lot because I'm already thinking about what a space on the map will be used for when I'm laying down the space. And I probably do my best work on something when I'm thinking about why I need to do it and what else it interacts with. If that makes sense.

For a giant wall of text example, to let you get inside my head:
The last area I made (that wasn't refurbishing an old shitty map, which is a very different process) was an abandoned oil platform. I started by making a small platform, trying to figure out how to make it look like it was above the water. This required adding some new tiles to my tileset, so I did those in Photoshop and then got back into RPG Maker. (I make that step sound so easy. Ugh.) Created a small platform, I knew I wanted a clearing overlooking the water on three sides for the heroes to start at, so I made that. Fully doodaded it. Extended the platform to the right. Decided a fenced-in area around the edges of a small shed would help add some shape to the zone, created that. Expanded my map size and moved that fenced-in area a little further away, and added a raised platform in between. Made a very large open area to the south of that stuff, with a track down the middle. Doodadded part of it. Decided to make the map a little more interactive, and added a second platform connected by a bridge that had to be extended with a switch. Doodadded that. Decided to make a small section at ocean level, with a ladder leading down to it. Decided to make a second one at another spot. Added doodads to both of those. Decided to put a second building on the main platform that you have to break into by destroying the wall with a puzzle - bad idea, now I have to come up with a puzzle. Motivation suddenly plummets. I tarry for about a week and a half. Eventually I put a note that says INSERT PUZZLE HERE and decide fuck it, I can do that later. Problem solved, motivation returns. I add some more objects like cranes that I thought of over the last week. I decide that oil platforms should go up more and be kinda vertical, but I can't imagine any way to do this, so I just make some steel girder-pillars ascending from the platform off the top edge of the screen; this implies that there's more stuff up there that you can't get to. Map is done now. I consider adding monsters but decide, no, I should really do that later. I can't help myself and start adding monsters.



Bonus question: I don't really have a sweet spot for the size of most things, other than that I try to make a lot of areas as small as possible because it's less work. This mostly applies to areas other than dungeons - especially towns and cutscene locations. In dungeons sometimes you just need more real estate to make the area feel more oppressive to the player - two areas can both take exactly 20 minutes to finish and involve exactly 8 battles and no real exploration, and one of them will still feel less like a "real zone" if it's a third the size. I do almost always try to make the interiors of houses fit in the upper two-thirds of the screen, so that dialogue windows can fit in the black space underneath without covering anything up.

Bonus question 2: Lots of entrances and exits leading to different maps can help. Go in a cave, come out the other side, and there's a 500 foot drop below you. Congrats, you went up a mountain while you weren't looking! This is really common in games, and I've even seen it in comics and movies, human brains don't seem to usually notice it unless they're attuned to the fact that it's happening. Though on the other hand, if I want the player to feel like they're walking through a valley or skimming a mountain slope, I've never had a problem just making a bunch of cliffs and adding ramps to let you go up them. You only need the trickery when the player needs to feel like they actually ascended or descended a long way.
This is actually one of my favourite aspects of game design.
I have never once planned out a map for any of my games. I just sort of... go with the flow. I 'see' the maps in my head, then take it from there. So I can't really explain my level-design process. ><

But I usually start off with the default map size, then expand it ( and shift ) the map as I go along. Playing a song that sets the mood for you map helps a lot too. It's what I do.

To answer your bonus question:

As for creating the illusion of depth, shadow overlays can help ( like clouds drifting overhead ), or using 'event mapping' to make a '3rd layer' for VX/Ace users. Parallax backgrounds help a lot as well. For example, if you're making a valley and want to create the illusion of distance when the player is standing on top of a cliff: make the map like you'd usually do, take a screenshot, then shrink it down and turn that map into a parallax. Makes an even bigger impact if you have some mountains that fade into the distance.
I like to create a very basic map on paper first. I'm talking like... "This is a village; I will need a weapon shop and an inn and a few houses for flavour and w/e", so I figure that out, draw a real big rectangle, and then draw a bunch of little rectangles to decide where I'll place everything. I do this mostly for the sake of saving myself a headache when I get to staging cutscenes -- because if I need a town square and left no room for a town square, that is a Problem -- and/or realizing I left an important building out.

As for area maps, I start with thinking of how many maps I want the dungeon to be, assigning them a number/letter (Map A B C, or 1 2 3, etc.), and then figuring out how they would connect to each other, i.e. which map exits into which map, what is the path of this dungeon like, etc.

BASICALLY I LOVE THE PRE-PLANNING STAGE because just going at it is not a thing I am good at wrt map design. OTL
LouisCyphre
can't make a bad game if you don't finish any games
4523
I just make games with no maps.

edit: When I did map, I'd use bridges and other overpasses for depth because they add tons of it. The simple act of looping over or under a path while exploring a map can give a powerful "aha!" moment as recognition kicks in and the player realizes they've made concrete progress. It also further incentivizes the player to examine their surroundings as they walk, since they might see destinations to go to, such as a chest at the bottom of a cliff.
Then my tests, or trys hawe ... go from my head.

Well... somtime i seen that i should cut off map at 2...
2 maps at area... is my max.
When inside, need see out?
I tried to prepare my maps once, but than I created things which aren't possible with square tiles xD
- So I basicaly start to think about how big my map should be.
- Then I start filling the ground with gras or something and with another tile
I paint some outlines to imagine how it could look like. How building structures
and other things could work.
- And then it's time to add real stuff and make the map \o/

Yeah, somewhat like that. I'm really chaotic xD
Making maps is probably one of my favorite things to do while making a game. I like the feeling of building the entire world from the ground up. I have no real process for doing it, though. I'll be making the game and realize that I need a forested area that leads from a village to a larger city, and then I just go for it. I'll usually start by drawing a trail/path/road through the area (if there is a trail/path/road), and then build up the world around it. I strive to make each area as unique and interesting to look at as possible, throwing in as much detail as I can to make the world seem alive.

My maps are usually 60x60 tiles. A forest might contain four or five such maps. That being said, I don't usually fill every single inch of real estate. I only detail what the player is going to see. Because I don't have some grandiose vision of the entire world, this unused space gives me some extra room in case I need to add a road to another map somewhere down the line.

That being said, I am anal about continuity between areas. If there's a tree halfway off the screen near the exit to one area, the other half of the tree better appear near the entrance to the next area. My maps are all 60x60 for a reason--placed side-by-side every single one of them will knit together to form a single, uniform world. So my process isn't entirely random. As the world grows, and maps start falling in line next to each other, I'll know that I *need* to have an exit here or there, and that helps the process along.
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
I just make games with no maps.

Well now I'm curious, how do you get away with doing this in traditional c/jrpg games?

@AlphaOmega247: I was doing something similar with my last project, only instead of 60x60, every map was 17x13 (the exact size of one "screen" in RMVX ACE).

Is nice to see this thread getting some activity, but I would like to remind people this thread isn't about your mapping process: there's lots of great threads dedicated to that. This one is about area planning.
Plans are similar at records... if say my plans...
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Max McGee
I would like to remind people this thread isn't about your mapping process: there's lots of great threads dedicated to that. This one is about area planning.
I'm not sure what the difference is, then. I feel like the only parts of area planning that aren't part of the mapping process are deciding where in the game the area is going to be, and what sort of theme it's going to have. Can you give an example?
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
hmm let me try and explain...if it is something you do while preparing what a single map is going to look like and how it's going to be laid out, it's not part of what I'm asking about...unless that map is fucking HUGE AND GYNORMOUS.

If it is something you do to help decide how many maps you're going to make, what they're going to be maps of, and how they will connect, then it's what I'm specifically asking about.

Basically, I am asking about the process of thought and design that is "how many maps am I going to make, what is going to be in them, and how will they connect" and not "how do I want this specific map, which I've already decided on, is going to look and flow". It's EARLIER in the level design process.

Is that a little bit more clear? I know that it's a subtle distinction and my use of a vague and billowy term like "mapping process" doesn't make it any more clear. (Darken: whateva ya posted, you should probably go ahead and edit it back in anyway. I am sure someone will find it useful or interesting.)
Bonus Question: What do you find to be the sweet spot or sweet spot range, in tiles (RPG Maker VX Ace tiles) for maps of various types i.e. towns, forests, dungeons, houses, whatever.

Bonus Question 2: How do you add the illusion of three dimensionality to (sequences of) fundamentally 2D maps i.e. for mountains and valleys and whatnot?

But you are asking questions related to mapping. So naturally they will talk about their actual mapping process.

Most people are in fact saying what their meta-mapping process is, mostly that they don't do any meta-mapping. They go right into mapping and they explain how and why it takes the place of what you are calling meta-mapping. It's all part of the same process - mapping. If you want to prevent people from talking about one, they probably won't have much to say about the other.

If you want to meta-map your entire game, I think you are wasting your time. In my experience the best maps come out of just going with the flow. I literally just fling my mouse around and then refine the lines. Just like doing a rough drawing before you draw solid lines. When you create a map you have an idea of what needs to be there, like a cave entrance or a castle, but it's surroundings aren't so crucial that you need to plan so much. Maps can be altered as you go, so just jump right in start creating. Having a rudimentary diagram can help design the flow of the game but it won't always help with the flow of the maps. With most games, anyways.

The type of game matters. If it's an action game you design the space the player will be fighting in. If it's an RPG, depending on the battle trigger type, you probably want to make something more maze like where you don't have to worry about have open areas for the player to fight on. If it's meant to be a short game, you would make shorter more straightforward areas. But it's not something to be planned, it's more of a dynamic thought process that works best on the fly.

So yeah, in conclusion, I don't think meta-mapping is actually a thing. Which is why you don't hear people talking about it. You might be over thinking it a bit. Start by drawing the thing you actually need for the game, like a house or castle, and then expand the map outwards from there based on the needs of your story and gameplay.
I usually try a minimalistic approach to meta mapping. I've found that if I meta map more than a bare minimum, it stifles my creativity. I can get around that by getting the creative work done while meta mapping instead of the actual mapping, so that's an option if I do need to plan out too much.
LouisCyphre
can't make a bad game if you don't finish any games
4523
It would seem that, no, no one gives much thought to the pre-planning stage of maps. They give so little thought to it that they barely even consider it a concept.
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
Hmm, interesting. As an example of the thing I'm talking about, for the dark/high fantasy roguelike-like (I say roguelike-like because the area generation isn't random so it can't be a true roguelike, but it will be a single-character dungeon crawler with substantial randomization and character development options) I'm working on, Grand Grimoire, which is inspired very much by things like D&D (the tabletop game, specifically 3.X), Demon Souls/Dark Souls, and Vagrant Story, the entire game takes place within the ruins of a massive "lost city", easily the size of a large town (which even by medieval standards is quite a large piece of real estate). The first and hardest thing I had to do was figuring out what would be my guideline to mapping that place and so I probably spent more time at the outset than I've actually spent MAPPING scouring over the hundreds of D&D adventure modules from every edition I had on my computer and browsing through fantasy cartography sites and so on and so forth just to find some kind of MAP of what I was going to MAP because the idea of "map the ruins of a vast lost city" was just super daunting and I had no idea where to start. (Note, when I was younger, this was way less of a problem for me, although the results weren't great, I would just jump and stop mapping a gigantic space station (like for Iron Gaia) or a thirteen story wizard's tower (for The Tower).

So anyway I finally found and modified THIS to my liking (including creating a version I could use as an in-game graphic, remembering where I'd found it so as to provide credit, etcetera) and then once I had a plan of what I was going to map, mapping seemed possible. I could just start in X corner and work outwards from there. It's still a ridiculous ambitious undertaking, probably prohibitively so, but I at least have a "plan of attack".

Next thought: since the age of 13 I have generally been heavily biased in favor of (obsessed with?) RPG games that take place in a vast, contiguous field location (like Dark Souls) rather than games that use a traditional world map (like Dragon Warrior/Quest, Final Fantasy, et al.) connecting smaller non-contiguous field locations and dungeons. It's probably unfortunate I have this obsession because honestly bite-sized dungeons and towns connected by a nice looking world map are way easier on the brain to create. But for some reason part of my brain really digs on contiguous spaces as opposed to representative distractions.

For the roguelike-like I was working on before that, Impetus, it's a science fiction horror action roguelike-like RPG that takes place on a large civilian space station that has just been impacted by a strange meteorite from out-of-system which seems to have been swarming with alien bioweapons. In this case, I probably went a bit procedurally crazy as far as meta-mapping went. See I made every map in the game exactly 17x13, and made every map in the game a modular "puzzle" piece that could be reused over and over again with slight variation to create "templates" of area types. I thought that all of this preparation would help me to create an area that held, if not the randomization of a roguelike, then at least the same sense of depth and breadth. Then I began making a literal "meta-map" of how I would connect the modular corridor and habitat pieces, using that as a guideline to begin the actual mapping process.

This massive image can be found here if you're curious. (WARNING: HUGE IMAGE!)

Anyway again that's the kinda stuff I'm talking about but I mean again if no one else does this than that's fine, that's still an answer to my question. The answer is just "I don't think about it and just dive in and start mapping in the engine with no plan, diagram, or schematic except the one in my brainmeats". Which is fine.

Also people aren't like...prohibited from talking about the actual process of mapping qua mapping here. I just thought there's been many a topic and tutorial on that in the past but I don't recall seeing this specific topic ever being discussed.

LouisCyphre: I still wanna know how you get around the problem of making maps at all in RPGs.
LouisCyphre
can't make a bad game if you don't finish any games
4523
Easy. Make your RPGs into visual novels and text games instead.

edit: basic grammar and formatting
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
When everything connects together like a Metroid game, you're right that meta-mapping becomes a way bigger deal. I'd go so far as to suggest that that might be the only time it really even becomes a thing at all. This is a more interesting topic now.

Unfortunately I don't have a lot of good advice! I still pretty much make each path the same way I'd make an area in a game with Final Fantasy style areas. The only big difference in the way I handle it is recognizing that areas have more than one exit. If I've decided ahead of time what areas I want to connect to a certain zone, then that's that. Sometimes I decide later to add a connecting area to an older zone, in which case I add the connection in by adding more stuff to the older map. Deciding how and were on the old map I want to put the connection is kind of just a matter of picking a nice-looking spot that was otherwise kinda boring, and then making the path go for the correct direction/distance to make it actually connect.

This would get more complex in something like Castlevania or Dark Souls 1 where you're constantly unlocking all kinds of shortcuts to go back and forth, and travelling in every direction. My maps, though all linked, are still basically one-way roads. You might have multiple "ends" of a level, but you almost always start from the same spot, because when you're done you use a warp crystal to get back to a kind of town hub that's in a central location between all the areas for that "stratum" of the game. This might be cheating, I guess?
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9159
When everything connects together like a Metroid game, you're right that meta-mapping becomes a way bigger deal. I'd go so far as to suggest that that might be the only time it really even becomes a thing at all.

Well I mean let's say that it's a regular JRPG and you're just about to set about making a really big dungeon ,or a really big castle, or a really big town. You don't think that most people have some kind of pre-map planning process (for the general area, not an individual map) that takes place "on paper" so to speak?

Kind of the same thing, just not as insanely vast in scope as a Metroid/Dark Souls.
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