NEW GAME+ AND HOW TO MAKE IT FUN.

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Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
This probably boils down to personal preference, but I have rarely found any enjoyment in New Game+. Carrying over stats from a previous cleared game when there's no changes to the game itself, or being given a super weapon that makes the game itself trivial just destroys any sense of balance and/or challenge that the vanilla run tried so hard to maintain. Usually, when I want to start over again, I'll just make a new save file and start the game over from the beginning.


What I like to see in New Game+:

Earn the OP abilities, weapons, etc.: this probably contradicts what I said in the initial paragraph, but the key difference between the two is the fact that you have to EARN these weapons. I don't mind having them if I feel like I've done something to earn them. If I beat a game that was relatively easy and am given a room clearing weapon, then I just feel silly. There's no fun or challenge in just walking into a room, press a button, and clear the room. You can add them as rewards to new side quests. Oh, speaking of which:

New side quests: Of course, you can't really go overboard with this, because then you'll be detracting from the initial game.

New game modes: I like games that remix enemy waves, or add an unexpected twist to the formula (like making all enemies invisible) to keep players playing. Resident Evil REmake is a perfect example of this. Three different modes are added on after beating the game at least once: Real Survivor mode, where the difficulty is set to hard and item boxes are no longer linked, forcing you to make decisions on what should be carried over and what shouldn't. Invisible enemy, which is pretty self explanatory, and One Dangerous Zombie, where a random zombie in the game is replaced by one strapped with grenades which will result in a game over if shot. Those kinds of additions make additional runthroughs feel fresh and exciting again.


What I DON'T like to see in New Game+:

Boosted enemy stats: Yeah. We beat the game. We've already gone through all of this before. Simply increasing the numbers on the enemy's side doesn't particularly engage me, especially if the strategies for beating them do not change.

Carrying over all stats from a previous game: Do you find enjoyment stepping on grass while walking? I don't. I don't even think about it because I'm concentrated on where I'm walking, not taking pleasure on stepping on grass. It's this reasoning why I don't like carrying over stats, because all the battles at the start of new game+ will draw your attention to stepping on grass, a deed that one would think to be so boring and uneventful that you would just want to breeze over it.


Some games I felt handled New Game+ pretty well.


Tales games: Throughout your initial run, you are given GRADE, which is a score that increases or decreases based on how well you performed in the various battles. At the end of the game, you are taken to a shop which allows you to spend GRADE to carry over your equipment, abilities, records, etc. as well as unlock new features, like double EXP, give a slight boost in initial stats or even HALF all exp gains if you're looking for a challenge run. To me, this feels like you can customize subsequent runs to make a playthough that you personally want.

Dark Souls 2(Before the expansion): As soon as you begin your second journey, you are greeted with a bunch of enemies that have not made an appearance in a game until now. In addition, you are attacked by very power Red Phantoms at different locations as well, and many of them will even drop equipment you can't find anywhere else. There are also small, subtle tweaks to enemy behaviors that will throw you for a loop, like a boss suddenly ambushing you on your way to fight it. Dark Souls 2 does so many awesome things on New Game+ that it kinda sorta makes the initial game boring.

Resident Evil REmake: By the time you've beaten the game two or three times, there's not a whole lot left to discover. At this point, players who play through the game a third or fourth time will be given a plethora of new game modes to play in, keeping the experience fresh and exciting. This is especially helpful in horror games. By the time you actually beat the game, it just isn't scary anymore because you already know what's going to happen. I think it's safe to assume that subsequent playthroughs will be more about beating the game than it will be about being scary, so new game modes will made the game fun as opposed to scary.


Anyway, what are you thoughts on New Game+, RMN? Agree with my points? Disagree? What do YOU personally want to see in New Game+?
I love it that stats carry over from the previous run. That's, like, the core point of having a New Game+. It's the + in New Game+.

Without that, all you have is just a new game.


The trick to making New Game+ fun is to make the original game fun, and then giving them all the equipment, stats, and option they've unlocked during the original game to them right from the start.
I like the "points to choose what to carry over" system, as it allows further replays of the game to remain fun and challenging.

But on the other hand, being able to carry over your stats to experience other endings is often a good idea as it allows you to just zip through the game and experience the content you missed.

Anyway this topic is really important for me to keep an eye on, because I'm planning a new game plus mode for my current main project (Mayhem Maiden) and I'm trying to think of how to handle it.

I think I'm just going to offer the player the option to carry over their stats if they want and carry over their equipment/mods if they want (Mods are equipment that grant new skills or alter existing ones), so that the player can start the game with all the skills they unlocked already available from the start.
Throw out all the boundaries, your game is now playdoh! Congratulations you beat Zeromus. Now when you start a NG+ of FF4 you have unfettered access to all characters at any time! Play through the game with Dark Knight Cecil instead of Paladin Cecil? Why not!

Okay, so FF4 isn't the best example because Dark Knight Cecil doesn't have any equipment after Fabul. I'd still like to see a game that removes story/progression based restrictions like characters or classes or so on. Years ago I played though Seiken Densetsu 3 and used a save editor to make everybody their level 3 class right away. This game me access to all magic when I got the elemental sprite and stats for it, level 2&3 techs, and no caps on stats. Starting stats were still based on the level 1 class too. It was surprisingly difficult because you take a lot more damage from enemy magic/skills when you're a level 3 class. Even early bosses were dangerous because of that. All in all it was pretty fun! I'd like to see more shit like that, basically.
Yanno, thinking about it, Wind Waker is the only NG+ I've ever done. Spending the whole game in your pajamas is great. Other silly stuff, like maybe something akin to Halo's IWHBYD Skull (activates weird dialogue), could be fun.

I like how Tales games let you pick and choose (though I haven't actually done and NG+ yet), but I don't really care for it being limited to how much Grade I got.

GreatRedSpirit

you have unfettered access to all characters at any time!

This reminds me how much Pokemon needs an NG+ option (and some non-linearity). I'd probably play the game a bit more if I could start with 3~6 Level 5 versions of whatever I caught last game. Starting off with all the HMs (and ability to use them outside of battle) might be fun.
Craze
why would i heal when i could equip a morningstar
15150
I was talking with louiscyphre about my dream FF1 remake a day or two ago. It would be fully 2D (but animated) still and, on your first run, be the classic six options for jobs (with some visual customization, maybe two options for styles e.g. sword warrior or axe warrior, hitlots monk or passive healing monk, etc.). BUT THEN ON NG+ it unlocks another 4-6 classes from other FF games to screw around with, the option to power up the bosses, etc.

...okay i just want to an animated Kary that actually puts up a fight, is that too much to ask
author=kentona
The trick to making New Game+ fun is to make the original game fun, and then giving them all the equipment, stats, and option they've unlocked during the original game to them right from the start.

I...guess, man.

If a New Game+ just carries over all of my gear/levels/etc, it sounds fun, but in execution it's still kinda boring! The power rush of "9999 damage against everything yeah!!!" fades after I've obliterated the 20th Slime with 'Doomsday Ultimate Spell', regardless of how fun the game was initially. It really just feels as if I'm playing the game with a Gameshark.

I like New Game+ that fundamentally alters the game. I don't even mind the carryover so much, just don't make it the same thing. Reward me with a different experience.

Dark Souls New Game+ lets you carry over your gear when you start from the beginning, but jacks up the difficulty in response (and again, and again, and again, through multiple New Game+(++++++?????)). The Chrono series opens up new endings that are impossible to achieve in a first playthrough. The Tales system has it's Grade.

I don't mind playing a game twice, New Game+ or no, but the whole 'lol carry over your shit' just turns a regular game into a cheat code. Hell, I'd even be satisfied with the 'carry over your shit from the beginning but the difficulty is jacked way up'!
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I actually dislike the Chrono Trigger method. I find replaying the game without any difficulty to be really boring, and I wish it weren't necessary to do so multiple times in order to get all the endings.

However, I didn't dislike it when Chrono Trigger was new. I was in love with it. It let me experience the story again, and it let me redo the exploration and find all the things I missed, and it let me use different characters and see what they had to offer, while allowing me to skip all the challenges which would have been extremely similar to my first playthrough anyway. It also let me become extremely powerful - something I enjoyed a lot, especially if I was getting that power legitimately and not via cheating. I was far more interested in all those other aspects than in overcoming challenges, at the time.

Twenty years later my tastes are very different. I don't think my tastes in 1996 were "wrong" or "worse." There are people who will enjoy a straight up New Game+ option with no gimmicks, and it's almost no effort to include. If you want to do more, though, then by all means, do more.
Isrieri
"My father told me this would happen."
6155
New games+ make more sense to me when I consider them like the 2nd loops in arcade games where it was the same game but with more enemies/more damage/harder in general.

It just doesn't make sense why you'd want to do that in an RPG. But then Chrono Trigger opening up all that content and bonus endings you missed in your first run through, and yeah, its pretty smart from a design perspective. I can see where the appeal is in that. But really, if you want your RPG to have a hard mode just have it on the options menu.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm pretty netural to New Game+. If the main game was good, then that's all I need to know, really. Playing the game a second time but NOW ITS DIFFERENT I might do once if the game's short enough or I like it enough (hello Zelda 1) but if the game's got great post game content and you have to slog through 412 hours of hallways I'm not going to buy it.
nhubi
Liberté, égalité, fraternité
11099
New Game+ only works for me in a story context. If all NG+ is going to give me is an opportunity to whack the same enemies (even if they are boosted) in the same situations then I'm not going to replay the game. I have too many others I want to try. If however the story branched at certain points making some areas unavailable, say in a battle for the crown between two twin siblings I chose to aid the king to be rather than the queen to be in one iteration I'd happily go back and make the other choice just to see how it would play out.

This isn't the same as replaying a game you enjoyed, as I've recently rediscovered when played RoI again. The game has a few new story tweaks and a few other extras but the basic storyline is the same, it's just good enough to get a reaction out of me second time around. But for NG+ you have to give your player a reason to start the journey again, either the story was so compelling that another playthrough with the ability to side step the superfluous battles (something like the low level grunts realising you carry the +45 sword of godliness and running away before you even see them) so you can get to the juicy parts, or a completely different story path that you get to experience for the first time.

If it's just the same road but with crushing your enemies underfoot with the same amount of effort as you would squash a bug, I can't see the appeal. Then again combat is about 3rd on my list for enjoyment in a game, so as always YMMV.
Cap_H
DIGITAL IDENTITY CRISIS
6625
I've never finished new game plus. Usually I don't finish 'the original' run either. I don't know, but I don't like my game getting harder. Being super strong multimillionaire at the end of the game, now I have to struggle with every slime, while being totally broke. It's big deal in diablolike action rpgs. I don't like these.
author=Craze
I was talking with louiscyphre about my dream FF1 remake a day or two ago. It would be fully 2D (but animated) still and, on your first run, be the classic six options for jobs (with some visual customization, maybe two options for styles e.g. sword warrior or axe warrior, hitlots monk or passive healing monk, etc.). BUT THEN ON NG+ it unlocks another 4-6 classes from other FF games to screw around with, the option to power up the bosses, etc.

...okay i just want to an animated Kary that actually puts up a fight, is that too much to ask

DQIX really needed a New Game+, where it was the exact same game EXCEPT the classes you unlocked are available from the start, and you don't have to start the game as a #!@% Minstrel.


Also, if you aren't looking to play the exact same game but with your current stats/equipment/skills/whatever in New Game+, maybe what you actually want is better post-game content? Because New Game+ to me is "same game, less tedium (because you beat it legit once already)"
Craze
why would i heal when i could equip a morningstar
15150
I have a weird thing against post-game content. I'd rather just have a meatier game, with the final boss being the Final Boss. I often feel that i'm in the minority though
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
author=Craze
I have a weird thing against post-game content. I'd rather just have a meatier game, with the final boss being the Final Boss. I often feel that i'm in the minority though

I'm with you on this one most of the time. Whenever I see the credits, I usually think that the game is over and done with, minor epilogue scenes being the one exception. However, I've seen a few exceptions in which case the post game content would make more sense to be in the, you know, post game. The first example that comes to mind would be the Pokemon games, with Gold and Silver being one of my favorite instances. but in all Pokemon games, because you're not (typically) there for the story. So "beating" Pokemon doesn't mean the same thing as beating, say, Final Fantasy.

Has anyone ever played the Spider-man game that came out in 2000? (It's just called Spider-man, so I can't be more specific than that) There was an, um... interesting mode in this game you could unlock after getting all the collectibles and some other cryptic procedures. It was called What If? Mode.

What If? Mode was essentially the same campaign with many, many small tweaks for comedic effect. For example, when an enemy is hunting down a person Spidey has to protect, What If? Mode has them playing Marco Polo. Another example is a serious battle between Spiderman and Dr. Octopus turned into a dance party with neon lights and a shrunk Dr. (Complete with high pitched voice, too!)

Here's a vid of What If? Mode. Note that you don't see the original version most of the time, but I think it's pretty clear where the game goes crazy:


One of my favorite moments is at around 9:40 when Spiderman comes across an imprisoned Black Cat. In What If? Mode, she got drugged with a substances that forces her to dance forever. It's funny.
author=Craze
I have a weird thing against post-game content. I'd rather just have a meatier game, with the final boss being the Final Boss. I often feel that i'm in the minority though

I am the same way, actually. Which is why I like New Game+ more than post-game
CashmereCat
Self-proclaimed Puzzle Snob
11638
I thought New Game+ was post-game content.

Do multiple endings count as New Game+? If that doesn't qualify, I'm not sure I've ever played a New Game+. But I would assume that the New Game+ would allow you to experience parts of the story/gameplay that you couldn't or didn't the first time around. To create a New Game+ only to experience the exact same experience as the first time might be boring.
Craze
why would i heal when i could equip a morningstar
15150
Cashmere, I mean post-game content as in the Weapons of FF7, or a 100-level dungeon meant to be played after or right before the final boss. Basically, stuff that you go and do with your save file right before the point of no return. Typically it makes you way too strong for the final boss to be any fun.

The only time I've appreciated it is in Last Scenario where the final boss is tough even at L99. I did almost everything in that game except beat the SUPER DUPER EPIC MEGA L100 boss because, uh, I suck. Part of it was because it was all so well-designed, and part of it was because the game is just a lot of fun with enjoyable characters and a fascinating story. And, again, the game is pretty much tuned for it. It's optional and difficult, but in a similar (not quite exactly the same) way that the phoenix caves are optional in FF6. You're gonna do 'em to get Locke, but you don't have.

Red_Nova: that what if? mode is great, haha!
For those who think it's unnecessary to have a Game+ I have a counterexample. I finished Sacred Earth Promise, and I was like "wait, that was it?!?" I completed one dungeon, and may have missed something, because after that, credits.

A game can be designed to be completed by an afternoon. But some players aren't satisfied with that, they want an act 2 to the story. It should have a trick to it, but fit in with the structure of the game.

CashmereCat, New Game+ is not multiple endings, it is like if you complete a game, and it says afterwards, NewGame+ and added content. Typically there is at the very least all items and levels retained, but

Games I've played that had NewGame+:

  • Chrono Trigger (finish the game, possibly with sidequests), it adds the ability to use the right telepod to jump straight to the battle with Lavos and retains levels/items.
  • Final Fantasy X-2 (finish the game, i think with like 80% completion), it retains items and you can add % to the total. I think there may be a bonus dungeon
  • Bravely Default (Oh God. You have to repeat a crystal unlock like 5 times, then kill a fairy and a dragon, it's epic length game), gives you a choice of what to retain.
  • Atelier Iris and Mana Khemia (finish the game), I think if you get all items/alchemies, you can unlock bonus dungeons. You also retain items and levels.
  • Kingdom Hearts Birth By Sleep (you have to complete all three stories), you have an extra story battle with just Aqua that gives the complete ending
  • My game, Oracle of Tao (you have to complete the game with Nevras in the party, meaning you have to either get him back if he leaves, or complete a romance sidequest so he stays), resets levels to 1, theoretically it retains all items but I haven't tested this. There is a bonus dungeon, different story events, and the map is slightly changed (places you won't go anymore, and new maps). Considering the original game is like 40 hours long, you kinda have the same issue as Bravely Default, do I want to play this again?
  • Oh yea, Castlevania Lament of Innocence let you play as characters you met during each story

Retaining earned items is good, it's like I earned this, now I get to use it to wipe the floor with you low-level chumps, and even this level 10 boss when I'm at level 1. Except for key items, of course.
Level on the other hand, nah, reset that. This makes you stronger than low level monsters for your level, but not epically strong just yet.
It's also good to have new items in treasure chests. Or new items in shops. Or new events. And definitely new dungeons where despite the new stuff, you have monsters that can 1hko party members that aren't careful.
I feel like if you don't get any enjoyment out of playing a game without the combat challenge, you're probably going to want something other than a New Game+. Some people appreciate the cathartic effect of being able to stomp on the bosses for a change instead of being an underdog.

One situation where I feel like New Game+es are most worthwhile is when you get some particularly useful skills or equipment right near the end of the game. In the original playthrough, there's almost no opportunity to experience it to its full potential, but the New Game+ lets you go back and get some real use out of it.

The originals Baldur's Gate games didn't have a conventional New Game+ system, but they had character importation which allowed you to send an endgame main character back to the beginning of the game, and, with a bit of tweaking, keep your equipment. I thought this was great, because the game is designed to limit your party's strength relative to your enemies, and a lot of your combat effectiveness comes from your equipment, but a lot of the best equipment only becomes available near the end of the game, so I think it can be fun to experience what the game would have been like if you'd had access to it from the beginning. Some people argue that if you're going to do this, you might as well just hack the game to beef up your stats and give yourself all the best equipment, but I never felt that way. I enjoyed using the powers and items I had gone out of my way to earn in a context where they weren't just allowing me to keep pace with the opposition. I feel like sometimes it's nice to be challenged, and sometimes it's nice to cruise while watching just how much your strength has escalated since you first started.

I was really put out when the Enhanced Edition version of the Baldur's Gate games took away the mechanism for keeping your equipment with an imported character, since I am resolute that it wasn't a bug. It wasn't something anyone would have stumbled on without taking advantage of it deliberately. Even if unintentional, it was definitely a feature.
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