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SUPREME COURT STRIKES DOWN BANS ON GAY MARRIAGE IN US
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Blind
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Closeauthor=CAVE_DOG_IS_BACK
I now invite someone to make the "Was hitler all that bad" thread
too late.
Also one of RMN's staff basically just resorted to the argument that "gay marriage will kill off the human species" so I'm not sure of the level of integrity this debate can go on with.
I hate SKITTLES, never tasted one I did not like...yucky.
Not sure why but it's true.....
No Skittles for me thank you... :)
Not sure why but it's true.....
No Skittles for me thank you... :)
author=Blindmind
Also one of RMN's staff basically just resorted to the argument that "gay marriage will kill off the human species" so I'm not sure of the level of integrity this debate can go on with.
No, she didn't. She said that's AN argument, not HER argument. She also said she didn't agree with it.
Now back to the discussion I was having with Slash before I decided sleep at 4am was a good idea. Yes understanding the reason behind someone's viewpoint is always the best way to go, taking someone down to their core values means you know where they can be moved and where they can't. However a discussion like this is never going to give you the opportunity to do that. Firstly because most people don't actually know what they truly believe and it's only after long discussions when you have them down to the sputtering stage of no longer being able to explain why they believe a certain thing other than the absolute conviction that it just the way things are. Secondly that sort of discussion not only takes time but requires more interaction than you can get on a forum post. Most communication is non verbal, tone, body language, micro-expressions. You need to be able to read those in order to delve deep enough. By all means, do it at every opportunity, but you won't be able to do it in this medium.
In what changed your mind from the one you had whilst you were growing up, you aren't your parents, or your friends, you're you and each person reacts to information differently. You chose to accept differing viewpoints and incorporate them into your view of the world, others didn't. However from the way you are describing them I think most of your friends would stop if you pointed out their jokes are dumb and offensive, especially if they are indeed for marriage equality.
As to what can change others minds, the best I've always found is integration. It's easy to demonise the 'other' if you've never had any interaction. Finding out that those people you've been taught to dislike by your parents/friends/religion isn't a 7 foot tall monster intent on taking away your quality of life but does in fact look and sound just like you, feels and cares just like you and hopefully thinks differently enough for you to get a new perspective is indeed life-changing. Mostly it tends to happen when you are taken out of your comfort zone, going away to school, starting a job, moving out of home. Look at what made you change, it'll be something like that for everyone who is capable of making that change (some aren't and never will be). If you want to understand it better, talk to others who have changed their viewpoints and hear their stories. Then apply that to others you would like to open to these possibilities. Just accept the fact that sometimes talking just isn't going to do it, and they need to have the experiences for themselves, not just hear about it.
Wow that was an essay. Time for me to go review something.
I think the main problem here is people thinking marriage is this holy trinity between a Man, a Woman, and God, when, it's just simply not. Historically, marriage is a business contract. It's always been a state sanctioned union legitimized by a religious power structure... At least in western Christian societies, where this argument applies directly. Someone already pointed out some number of pages ago that it's only been recently that people have been getting married on the basis of love.
People in power fuck with religion and laws when it behooves them to do so politically. Take for example, just some minor figures in history: Constantine, Martin Luther, King James, John Paul II, etc., etc.
What's my point? Marriage has nothing to do with religion and it never did. Any claim that this fundamentally destroys the sanctity of marriage, or any claim against same-sex marriage based on moral or religious ethics just doesn't apply or matter. You can be upset about it all you want, but marriage is a social construct. It is and should remain outside of the realm of religious influence, regardless of the steeple you kiss under, or the way the organ player rocks those pipes. Maybe a Priest, a Rabbi, or an Imam weds you, but in most US states, they need some sort of official license or documentation to make it legit.
You know, so you can get your marriage license and your 'just married' tax breaks.
Religion helps add that nice shiny layer of veneer, a level of legitimacy to this state function, but it's ultimately just a layer of veneer for what has been a normal human behavior for hundreds of years before the US Supreme Court got to it, or Christianity for that matter.
People in power fuck with religion and laws when it behooves them to do so politically. Take for example, just some minor figures in history: Constantine, Martin Luther, King James, John Paul II, etc., etc.
What's my point? Marriage has nothing to do with religion and it never did. Any claim that this fundamentally destroys the sanctity of marriage, or any claim against same-sex marriage based on moral or religious ethics just doesn't apply or matter. You can be upset about it all you want, but marriage is a social construct. It is and should remain outside of the realm of religious influence, regardless of the steeple you kiss under, or the way the organ player rocks those pipes. Maybe a Priest, a Rabbi, or an Imam weds you, but in most US states, they need some sort of official license or documentation to make it legit.
You know, so you can get your marriage license and your 'just married' tax breaks.
Religion helps add that nice shiny layer of veneer, a level of legitimacy to this state function, but it's ultimately just a layer of veneer for what has been a normal human behavior for hundreds of years before the US Supreme Court got to it, or Christianity for that matter.
Discussion, they say...
All I see is mostly hate being thrown around the place.
People with unchanging opinions refusing to even try to look at it from a different perspective while expecting others to look at it from their angle.
This pretty much sums up my forum experiences.
What did we gain from it? Some new bad blood between RMN members.
All I see is mostly hate being thrown around the place.
People with unchanging opinions refusing to even try to look at it from a different perspective while expecting others to look at it from their angle.
This pretty much sums up my forum experiences.
What did we gain from it? Some new bad blood between RMN members.
author=iddalai
Discussion, they say...
All I see is mostly hate being thrown around the place.
People with unchanging opinions refusing to even try to look at it from a different perspective while expecting others to look at it from their angle.
This pretty much sums up my forum experiences.
What did we gain from it? Some new bad blood between RMN members.
Actually iddalai, if you REALLY think about it, that works both ways.
Those who whatever reason, disapprove of gay marriage feel this is being rammed down their throat so no, they will not take the time to think about it and realize that gay people ALSO have a right to be happy.
On the other hand, those in the gay community, feeling they have a right to be just as happy as everyone ALSO refuse to try and see it from the side of those who for reasons THEY FEEL are valid think it's wrong.
I'm not saying either side is wrong, just that as in most but not all situations, there are two sides to the story and it really hard to get someone to change their mind.
Just look at the unhappiness between the Black and White communities.
Never thought I was prejudiced at all, but now I'm not sure.....
What a mess this world is in :)
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
There's really a third side, being the heterosexual allies of the LGBT.
author=Linkis
Actually iddalai, if you REALLY think about it, that works both ways.
I meant it for both ways.
author=Corfaisus
There's really a third side, being the heterosexual allies of the LGBT.
I'm sure there must also be gay people against LGBT.
Tyranos
1115
author=LockeZ
Jesus never placed limits on love, but he did tell people when they were wrong. Telling someone you think they're wrong and they need to change isn't the same as telling them you don't love them.
You're right. It's Nazism.
EDIT: Just to clarify now that I am done with my math problems for the week. Taking an option off of the table because you don't like it is the basis of fascism. Thus taking AWAY the right to do as pleases people is oppression. By no means is legally allowing it oppression. No one is forcing non gay people to have a gay marriage and we all know that gay sex, like hetero sex, occurs outside of marriage. All this does is allow gays the right to visit their partners in hospitals now and sign documents for them and allow them to inherit. We all also know marriage was before religion and the idea stolen from the Gaels or Celts. I cannot remember which. The original allowed for any number of people to marry, in other words allowing marriage of four or even twelve people. So once again Christianity STEALS a piece of culture and warps it to fit their messed up sense of right and wrong.
One last thing I will say about LockeZ. The man is literally TWO STEPS away from being a Nazi. He's saying that it is okay to tell people they are wrong for being who they are. That is LITERALLY WHAT HITLER DID. Only the Nazi party of the mid 1900's took it one step further and decided to use the law to oppress and murder those people. Well who just stated they disagreed and wanted it to be illegal again? Hmmm two steps towards being a Nazi, one remains. All Locke has to do now is start killing gays for being gay and he'll be a full fledged member of the Third Reich.
Just so you are aware offering an option is neither oppression nor bigotry or hatred. It is the fundamental difference between America and the notions it was founded on and many other countries. It is the OPPOSITE of those very ideals. This ban lift has been a victory for all those who died fighting against fascism and extremism throughout history.
On a final note I will not allow the sacrifices of noble and true warriors get slandered and wasted by home grown insurgents. I will now be purchasing more ammunition and firearms in case the Nazi scum in this country have the balls to rebel. I've seen what you people are capable of doing and I will NOT allow you to destroy my country with gas chambers and the torture of innocent civilians.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=Tyranos
On a final note I will not allow the sacrifices of noble and true warriors get slandered and wasted by home grown insurgents. I will now be purchasing more ammunition and firearms in case the Nazi scum in this country have the balls to rebel. I've seen what you people are capable of doing and I will NOT allow you to destroy my country with gas chambers and the torture of innocent civilians.
I was in a stream last night with a guy who said that he'd be the first one to start shooting if they took the confederate flag off of historically significant sites. The only people who want to preserve the confederate flag in any discernible way are white supremacists (most others are concerned with the times in which such a flag was flown). White supremacists - also known as neo-Nazis - are extraordinarily "passionate" about keeping the impure filth off of their soil and take pride in their firearms as if it was the last thing standing between them and Armageddon.
I think you can tell where this line of reasoning goes in accordance to your post. I also think you have an unhealthy amount of preoccupation with the Nazis.
LightningLord2
230
RMN, burn down your pants!
You know who else wore pants? HITLER!
Seriously, why is everyone so obsessed with disagreeing with Hitler? He must have contributed as much to the downfall of the Third Reich as the allies who liberated France.
You know who else wore pants? HITLER!
Seriously, why is everyone so obsessed with disagreeing with Hitler? He must have contributed as much to the downfall of the Third Reich as the allies who liberated France.
I have Hitler in my avatar so I think all my posts count as double when determining how many literal steps I'm from becoming a fascist and dressing in black and telling people what to do
author=GreatRedSpirit
I have Hitler in my avatar so I think all my posts count as double when determining how many literal steps I'm from becoming a fascist and dressing in black and telling people what to do
Not true GRS, back in the day, we wore brown so we were able to hide under the tavern table when our wives came looking for us....
This isn't an example of how evil Nazis were. It's an example of how popular they are. As a people we're obsessed. They've been featured in every iteration of Star Trek (I actually can't think of a Next Generation episode, but I'm sure there is one, but other than that, Kirk and Spock have actually dressed as Nazis, Sisko dealt with Nazis, Janeway and crew got imprisoned in a holodeck full of Nazis, and Archer fought alien Nazis.). In half the stories about modern sorcerers, the key to immortality/ultimate power/the MacGuffin of Ages leads back to an old Nazi experiment.
Fucking Indiana Jones. 4 movies. 3 rocked. 2 had Nazis. 1 movie sucked. Guess who the bad guys weren't in the movie that sucked.
We're obsessed with Nazis. It's probably because our role in the Second World War gave us legitimate bragging rights over the rest of the world, and except for landing on the moon, we haven't done shit worthwhile since. Every war we've been in since the Big One, we've had to make up some excuse, and when someone gave us an excuse (9/11) instead of handling it properly, we shot everything in sight, and not only do we not know if we hit the target, we've got a lot of reason to believe we hit the wrong one. Instead of uniting the nation under a common cause, our confused government, filled with infighting and power grabs, operated the War on Terror under a state of confusion. Confusion and incompetence all around.
The War on Drugs has done nothing but victimize the innocent and create CREATE violent criminals. I won't even go into this one.
We haven't been awesome since Nazis walked the Earth, and as a society and as a culture, we know it. We know it and we can't get over it. This is we have the Godwin law. Many comparisons might even be legitimate, but we've made them so fucking much, they've lost all credibility.
Now, I'm all for preparation and arming oneself. The whole point of the second amendment was to ensure that we could preserve ourselves from threats to our safety and our liberty, but that did not mean we should prepare for war because we disagree with someone else's view. If shit goes down, it goes down, but that's not the same as going to look for a fight.
Rant over.
Moral of the story: get over your Nazi fixation, America.
Fucking Indiana Jones. 4 movies. 3 rocked. 2 had Nazis. 1 movie sucked. Guess who the bad guys weren't in the movie that sucked.
We're obsessed with Nazis. It's probably because our role in the Second World War gave us legitimate bragging rights over the rest of the world, and except for landing on the moon, we haven't done shit worthwhile since. Every war we've been in since the Big One, we've had to make up some excuse, and when someone gave us an excuse (9/11) instead of handling it properly, we shot everything in sight, and not only do we not know if we hit the target, we've got a lot of reason to believe we hit the wrong one. Instead of uniting the nation under a common cause, our confused government, filled with infighting and power grabs, operated the War on Terror under a state of confusion. Confusion and incompetence all around.
The War on Drugs has done nothing but victimize the innocent and create CREATE violent criminals. I won't even go into this one.
We haven't been awesome since Nazis walked the Earth, and as a society and as a culture, we know it. We know it and we can't get over it. This is we have the Godwin law. Many comparisons might even be legitimate, but we've made them so fucking much, they've lost all credibility.
Now, I'm all for preparation and arming oneself. The whole point of the second amendment was to ensure that we could preserve ourselves from threats to our safety and our liberty, but that did not mean we should prepare for war because we disagree with someone else's view. If shit goes down, it goes down, but that's not the same as going to look for a fight.
Rant over.
Moral of the story: get over your Nazi fixation, America.
