THE RELIGION THREAD

I was raised Methodist, which I'm actually pretty thankful for. I live in the Bible belt, but Methodism's core philosophies are "the golden rule" and "turn the other cheek," which are still beliefs I absolutely agree with. Our church did a lot of good for the community and they weren't pushy like Baptists; this is probably the major reason why my childhood church is failing to grow and will most likely be gone within the decade. Helping other people and being meek isn't as exciting as strong-arming people into avoiding burning in hell, I guess.

That said, I'd consider myself a deist. It's difficult for me to trust anything from the Bible since the Bible is a piece of literature written by people, and people are really great at lying. This is something that seems natural to me as a producer of fiction. I can't trust the words of ancient, poorly educated, superstitious people. I can't even trust the words of most modern, educated people. However, I also find it hard to believe that the universe, with its clear and beautiful rules, wasn't designed. My basic stance is that I think something created the universe, and I have no idea what its motivations, personality, and physical/mental/spatial/existential qualities are and I never will, so there's no point in wasting much time and thought towards figuring it out, but I'm infinitely thankful that everything exists and I'm a part of it.

author=Red_Nova
No. That was me that did this. I willed it. The playground, the children, the youth group, are all thriving because of my efforts.

this is only partially true. prepare to be educated

faith was a requisite for the context which allowed your assumption of leadership positions to happen. the drive to lead and to do good, on your part, may not have depended directly on faith, but it depended on the products of faith

i'm willing to wager 100 million dollars--and this is not a statement against you personally--that since leaving the church you've significantly decreased or stopped entirely your charitable activities. it's probable that you consider your severance from faith to be the logical severance from the good you've been doing within its system, but the actual logical behavior, if all you say is true ('it was my efforts which brought me so much fulfillment which they then took away'), is that you should have ramped up your community servicing, which i again wager 1000 billion million infinity dollars did not happen (and again not as a personal statement against you). this is because you provided 25% of the labor for change, but faith shouldered the rest--in ways which may not be immediately obvious to you (a reason to participate, a reason for the community which you operated within to exist, playground building materials). we're drawn to individual achievements, our own and that of others, but everyone forgets the importance of the invisible system which supports them

think about how difficult it is, in the adult world, to get anyone to agree or to get anything done at the community-or-greater level (from your personal experience, not in an abstract, internet-spectator way). doubts about leadership (why should i follow their lead?), doubts about validity (is what i'm doing right?), doubts about community/solidarity (anyone even here? i'm going home), conflicts against our own identity ('youre doing what? helping others? what a sap'), and beyond. how do you get a group of separated, slouchy, disinterested teenagers (ie: separated+slouchy+disinterested adults) to come together and organize a human effort of value? 'you need to put on this hairnet' 'that looks gay' 'look i dont like it any more than you do but we have to do it' (i dont like it any more than you do==unwillingness to impress upon youth the importance of cause and shouldering responsibility for validity/success of cause, and instead transferring this burden to god or a god-like authority)

this is why any effort for change outside of the church depends on a faith-substitute--sick children in hospitals, starving people in whatever, jews being the cause of red ring on my xbox, etc etc.--the more visceral, the more effective, and this is essentially the secular version of 'faith'. but the difference between secular faith and nonsecular faith is that nonsecular faith is a) constantly relevant and b) infallible and c) perpetuates itself indefinitely--all by design. it's completely unsurprising that churches are among the most powerful institutions on the planet and completely unsurprising why we continue to spontaneously generate variations of them: its the most natural method by which we depressurize. the sum vector of our individual lack created the phenomenon known as religion, a container for the negative space of human potential

and so this is the fundamental expression of god: an artificial sink in the game of societies which drains up psychological barriers to action, for 'good' or 'bad'

@Red_Nova:
You know what, I don't even care if you're a Scientologist. Please let's be best friends forever!
(In case anyone missed it: Red_Nova is not really a Scientologist. It's just a joke.)


@Marrend:
Hm, that's an interesting perspective. I must admit that it seems a little arbitrary to me, though. Especially considering that any characters which we, as humans, invent, don't actually come into existence in reality. If all characters I came up with would actually become real beings, I would probably never make anything but Mary Sues any more. Because I would feel like a huge jerk for creating beings that have to suffer just because I "sentenced" them to it in the name of a "good story". That's getting dangerously close to the idea of humans only being God's playthings, which is a concept I have to admit I don't particularly like.


@kali:
Apart from the fact that I'm a little amazed that you apparently signed up on a forum about game design specifically to reply to a post in a thread about religion, your logic hardly seems sound to me. Not only do you base your arguments on speculative assumptions about Red_Nova's character and actions. You also don't seem to realise the social functions you ascribe to religion and religious communities are not exclusive to those. School can do this. Families can do this. Groups of friends, of people with similar interests or with the same political leanings can do this. Religious communities may play a significant role in this regard in our current world, but they are not inherently more effective or valuable than many other sources of (social) motivation. (Not to mention that this kind of peer pressure is not automatically a good thing in every situation.)
Also, "nonsecular faith" is by no means constantly relevant or infallible. The "problems" it encounters - namely doubts, unwillingness, mismanagement etc. on the part of its members - are exactly the same as those in any group, be it religious, political, economical, or based on any other kind of unifying principle. The very fact that people like Red_Nova exist, people who decide against following certain doctrines or even decide to leave the community entirely, proves your point wrong.

As a reponse to kali's post, I've done a ton of volunteer work after dropping my religious inclinations - mostly because my current job goes out of its way to entice us to. They don't have to, and the majority of our workers are agnostic or athiest (it's a tech company and most of us are pretty young) but they do it to look good.

---

My story: I was raised as a Catholic Christian my whole life, going to private schools until I was 18. Around 14 I started to realize that the way I wanted to live my life conflicted with a lot of my religion. The Catechism of the Catholic Church contains a long list of things that are considered mortal sins, acts that will condemn you to hell if you die before you repent. But, a lot of mortal sins are totally innocuous or harmless things - not going to church on Sunday, masturbation, sexual contact beyond moderate kissing, anything homosexual, invoking the name of God in vain, and not informing other people that they're committing mortal sins. Anyway, I committed a lot of mortal sins I didn't actually feel that guilty about, and I realized that those parts of religion didn't mesh with my personal morals.

I still believe in a lot of the general Christian teachings (being giving and forgiving, trying to be understanding, trying to help others) that were instilled in me from my years as a Christian, and I believe there are a lot of good things in the Bible, but I don't agree with a lot of the Church's beliefs, so I consider myself agnostic, at best.


PREPARE TO BE EDUCATED

author=CashmereCat

author=Shinan
So yeah mostly I'm a militant atheist. I tend to look down upon people who genuinely believe some of this stuff. Especially in the face of overwhelming scientific fact.

There is possible argument that carbon dating is inaccurately calibrated, due to assumptions about certain dates being wrong. C14 dating is very accurate for wood used up to about 4000 years ago, because it's well calibrated with objects of known age. However, for objects over 4,000 years old, there are few, if any, known artifacts to be used as the standard. Libby, the discoverer of the C14 method, was very disappointed with this problem.

In the original Hebrew text, the word for day actually means eon, or an era of time. How long is each of the 6 eras of creation? We don't know. But taking this into account really does lend legitimacy to evolution and the Universe being billions of years old.

The cornerstone of what I believe is true, self-sacrificing love. Regardless of whether or not there is an all-powerful deity that acts as a physical manifestation of this love, I seek to fulfill the need for love in the here and now.

I believe that the only way we can move forward as a species is to be selfless and giving in the face of our own self-gratifying and self-preservational instincts. To give when we can - even if we aren't wealthy ourselves - for the benefit of another being is what drives me. If I see a person hungering, even if I only have one simple sandwich to call my own, I feel obligated to negate some of their suffering by offering some of my food to them.

As I strive for selflessness, I don't concern myself with doing good deeds in order to obtain physical or spiritual rewards either here or in the future (heaven to a greater extent).

It is through this selflessness that I give of myself when my cat is needy and that I fully support and rejoice in the love that others share, even if it benefits me in no way, because they have found something glorious that surpasses the majesty of earthly pleasures. You can have all the toys in the world, but nothing will fulfill the soul quite like selfless love.

To quote from first Corinthians chapter thirteen verses four through eight (because I believe it's relevant to this thread in-particular):

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 New International Version (NIV)
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

@NeverSilent: Not worrying about whither or not we are "playthings" is probably the key point with this whole thing. If one starts to worry about that, it would probably lead to existential issues that, to be frank, I'm not prepared to debate at any level!

author=Red_Nova

author=NeverSilent
@Red_Nova:
You know what, I don't even care if you're a Scientologist. Please let's be best friends forever!
(In case anyone missed it: Red_Nova is not really a Scientologist. It's just a joke.)

I'd be happy to! That'll be $60 a month.

That sounds fair. Okay, sure.

author=Red_Nova

author=NeverSilent
@Red_Nova:
You know what, I don't even care if you're a Scientologist. Please let's be best friends forever!
(In case anyone missed it: Red_Nova is not really a Scientologist. It's just a joke.)

I'd be happy to! That'll be $60 a month.

Does it come with a membership card? Not a cheap one, mind you; a photo ID with a sensor strip.

Anyhoo...

I was raised Baptist. The church we went to was a relatively famous one, with televised sermons and a charismatic preacher. The church is called Church on the Rock. Thinking back, the pastor was quite an influence on my life. He wasn't judgemental, was understanding of other people's views, and he always had time for anyone who needed his advice. The only bad thing I can think of was that he was someone who tended to grip your hand way too tight during a handshake. I've spent some time trying to remember his first name. David (I think) Blunt. My mother laughs at his name; a pastor named "Blunt".

If that church had been my only experience with organized religion, I would probably still be Christian. I've encountered intolerance in the most unexpected places; from the belief that Walt Disney was a devil worshipper and tried to induct children into witchcraft through his movies, to the belief that African's are evil because they're descendants of Cain (this one comes from my own grandmother, whose husband used to run an inner city church; she's a bona-fide Creationist. The recent years haven't been kind to them. She's had to seperate from him for her safety. He's gone senile and doesn't always remember her. Unfortunately, even at his age, he's not decrepit, and has been becoming violent. He hasn't done anything to her, but the collection of busted TVs and holes in the walls started raising alarm bells through the family. He's a WWII vet and a former martial arts instructor. I wanted to call him recently, but it turns out he doesn't have a phone because on one of his tirades, he ripped the phone out of the wall and the hookup came with it. I think one of my cousins checks in on him regularly.).

I believe it was my youthful observations with a number of inconsistencies that led me, for a time, to stop believing in a higher power. I remember my grandmother teaching a Sunday School class speaking against evolution, explaining how scientists argued that our forearms were actually our front legs, and to denounce the believe, she asked us of our arms looked like legs--I guess I was in my early teens--and I just remember thinking that, as a matter of fact, they do. She was actually implying that four-legged animals don't have shoulders, elbows or wrists. In my early 20s, I remember a street preacher thumping his Bible in a line at a hotdog stand. He was saying that we should all obey the Bible because it was written by God. Well, no it was written men. He then said it was written by God through men. You know, if I take the time to go through the Bible, I think there are a few verses that admit that the Bible was written by men. Despite all of the Bible publishers out there, I'm pretty sure God hasn't established his own press. Though if you believe some of these preachers, he's got a soft spot for ghost writers.

So, for a time, I stopped believing, and when the time came that I started believing again, I didn't come back to Christianity. I may not have been sure about the existence of god, but I eventually became certain that praying to Ra, Zeus, Cerridwen, Athena, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or Joe Pesci (George Carlin fans will understand) was not going to earn me a trip to the flaming depths, no matter what anyone said. So I dabbled in goddess religions for awhile, with a particular focus on magic. I realized one of the big short-comings of Christianity was its insistence that we pay homage to this omnipotent creator. I can't even begin to explain my feelings on a being with this kind of power being so petulant that it must condemn to eternal suffering even the most inoffensive creature that doesn't enslave itself to this being. Five minutes of reasoned thought is more than sufficient to show that not only would such a being be absolutely idiotic, but that such a being could only ever be worthy of our spite and resentment. It's certainly no benevolent creator, and the Bible makes clear that this god cares about faith and not acts.

When I first met my wife, it was online. I had moved from St. Louis to Miami, and she lived in Chicago (I know, a Cardinals fan and a Cubs fan falling in love, but it happened.) one of things that bothered us was distance. The more I began to focus on bringing her to South Florida...well, it was rather interesting experience and one I've been unable to duplicate, but I could tell her at any time exactly what she was thinking. Meanwhile, at any given time, she knew where I was, what I was doing, could describe locations to a "t". Nevermind we were half a country apart. This is why I keep telling Pizza that no matter what seperates you, with a strong enough will and sufficient mental discipline, nothing can keep two people apart.

I couldn't find any reasonable scientific work on telepathy and scientific phenomena. There was some, but it's mostly regarded as pseudo-science, and legitimate study is extremely limited. To this end, I found myself delving into the writings of the more adept sorcerers such as John Dee, Elphias Levi, Abraham the Jew, Aleister Crowley, Robert Edward-Waite, and Samuel Liddel MacGregor Mathers, and I've been studying their work ever since. I'll admit, since my wife died, I've growed unreasonably complacent, my belief in this path is no less diminished.

I can agree wholeheartedly with many things that have been said, specifically with Red and Blindmind.

I did enjoy the shrine visits in Japan, and some of the general ideas, although I have never been one to follow a religion.

I was raised a catholic, and the moment the priest retired, and thoughtful sermons were replaced with boring ones, what little belief was left slowly washed away.
God in my childhood had been more of an evil boo-man watching whatever you are doing.

Both my parents were religious, which is the whole reason our family is as large as it is. They divorced and while my mother stopped believing, my father still is into it as zealously as ever. He used to be into more esotheric circles, by now what he believes to be christianity is a far stretch of what most people believe it to be. He filled the time he spent with family with religion.

He is part of many smaller international circles, started his own works against abortion and other things, is involved in all kinds of stuff. It also involves a daily visit to the church (even if he played the organ during a mess), having a prayer chain, so often after he comes home after work, he would pray for hours during the night.
And when it comes to his beliefs, prayers = power. Artificats = powers. Blessed stuff = power. Evil spirits everywhere, on symbols (like band t-shirts), the outside, everything.
With every single of their "work of holy love"-prayers Holy Mary promises to save one child. Directly, of course.
They believe in holy artifacts, like the one Jesus robe in Trier, it even grew with Jesus as he was growing up!
They rejoice whenever they hear someone converted from protestant to catholic. They believe sex before marriage corrupts your soul beyond saving and will destroy you in many ways. The apartment is filled with statues, pictures, stickers in every room.
And that are just a few things, really. I could go on and on and on.

The fact remains that his is part of a very extreme group of catholics. Some of the prophecies they believe in are not "yet" accepted by the head of church even.

I was living at his place for a year or two, and while they work day and night whenever possible, they are happy in content with what they are doing. They fear every outside event, feel sorry for vast majorities of people, feel almost everyone has lost the sense of truth and are living horrible lives.
And there is nothing to be said, nothing to be discussed, and nothing to be changed.
They live in their own world, and are free to do so. They have filled empty parts of their lives with it, and they are content.
There is both good and bad coming from such work, from such belief. I certainly couldn't have lived there any longer though, without upsetting their beliefs and their routines by merely being there. The notion that they have to convert and "help" everyone, however, happens to be a very destructive force in practice.


----------------------------------

Welp. As for myself, I do not believe in a god. I have always thought that this is simply how you feel about the world. Is there such a big choice in believing?

I can accept what people think, and while it creates walls about things that cannot be questioned and cannot be judged, it is what they ultimately believe the world to be. And you can only approach their actions and thought processes from their point of view.

Yet there are underlying principles which are well worth learning about, and interesting concepts to be seen and applied. I am quite curious about buddhism (the more traditional one which is closer to philosophy anyway).

I do believe that nature itself holds a great deal of energy everywhere. There are amazing things you can do with your body, amazing feasts you can achieve by concentrating your thoughts and energy around your goals. Where attention goes, energy flows.
Wishes do come true quicker than I often realize.

I am just learning about things, and for me religions are fascinating constructs rather than anything else.

And with me learning more about confidence and self-love, one thing I can never agree to is self-sacrificing love.

Even Jesus said to love another like yourself.
Like. Yourself.

Exhausting yourself to please others, giving out energy when you don't have any left.. that is one of the ugliest and sadest concepts I can imagine.

If you can gain and give, if you love yourself enough to keep yourself healthy so you can keep helping others - that I can agree to. Sacrificing yourself in the process? Who would ever want that? Who would want to receive help on the cost of another? That is not giving, that is not loving, at least not for me.

There is nothing wrong with not enjoying certain behaviours and certain actions. There is still value to gain there, and adding value to the world is a goal to thrive for.

If we all take care ourselves, everyone is taken care of.

Animals have always done it, a mother will feed herself first and her children second. Because without her, the children will be left to die.

For me, keeping ourselves strong and healthy is a necessary to be a true help to anyone. If you ignore yourself, you cannot truly help. You cannot give away the energy they need if you have none left.
It's the most amazing joy if you can enjoy helping others on your own accord. I do think we should help when we can and when it does not hurt us, but we still matter. If it hurts us, we need to be careful.

Realizing that there are energies involved helped me realize why I feel about certain things and certain people the way I do.
It is one of the many reasons "nice" people often feel like dead wood, as far as their charisma and presence goes.
They seek to draw affirmation and love by doing and helping, rather than sharing and giving love while doing what they do.
All with best intentions.

At the end of the day, everyone tries to do the best in their belief system and in their capabilities. One can only be the best version of oneself to be a good influence on one's surroundings.

.. reading through this, it seems I am becoming more of a spiritual person. Interesting.