OF GAMES, REPRESENTATION, AND WOMEN'S CHEEKBONES

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Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7419
author=iddalai
author=Corfaisus
Why not? Are gay people like some other kind of species or something?
Just like men and women think differently, so do gay people.
That we should all have equal rights doesn't mean we are all the same, embrace difference.
I can't just create a straight character, change their romantic interest to the same sex and be done with it, there's much more to it than that.

Men think one way. Women think another. Gay people all across the universe think differently than the first two.

What about me? Do I think the same as "men"? Who are these "men" we're talking about?

author=iddalai
author=PentagonBuddy
guess what! it's hard to make your own games and do your own shit in an environment that is hostile to your presence, openly or otherwise.
author=Corfaisus
What do you suppose is the reason behind this? If the door is open to everyone, don't you think we'd see a little more diversity?
The door isn't shut all the way through, change has been happening in some AAA games.
But you don't need to start with AAA games, you can make Indie games, that door is wide open.
Anything else is an excuse.

People being laughed/cursed out the door is just an excuse?

author=iddalai
Funny, I find this:

author=PentagonBuddy
straight white male cis dudes

Offensive. Give it some years, it will become a racial slur.

That will never happen, actually. You're picking for a reason to discredit the discussion and the people it affects. There's never been a more selfish course of action.

author=harmonic
Essentially all posts
author=Corfaisus
That's the thing about conservatives; they aren't concerned with history and knowledge. If it ain't in the Bible, it's the words of Satan and must be ignored at all costs.
slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4011
We have discovered a rare and valuable gender, more glittery and precious than any gender before it.
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
if you're going to accuse me of just dancing on stage for attention, at least throw some singles at me.
Zeigfried_McBacon
I'm not staff anymore, so please don't ask me about that,especially game engine related stuff.
3767
Sorry Soli, all you get is monopoly money. At least it'll be valid in the next game of monoply you play (I hope).
author=Corfaisus
author=harmonic
Essentially all posts

author=Corfaisus
That's the thing about conservatives; they aren't concerned with history and knowledge. If it ain't a misunderstanding of Adam Smith, it's the words of Stalin and must be ignored at all costs.


Fixed for you.
harmonic
It's like toothpicks against a tank
4142
Yes, everyone who disagrees with you must certainly disagree with you because they're dumb.

What a fresh and new thing to say in a debate.
alright i'm gonna cherry-pick another thing i find v relevant from Serano's essay:

the idea of the “activist language merry-go-round”

this refers to the ways that many activist groups change the language they use and consider acceptable for others to use. It happens much faster in the age of the INTERNET SUPER HIGHWAY than it did in the past. "activists" is an incredibly broad term, and can refer to so very many people doing so very many things. In the case of trans activism as well as other groups that get filed under the LGBTQIA+ umbrella, there's been a recent increase in just the sheer amount of terms and identities for someone to use. Some of them are fairly new words (or at least new in being introduced to larger audiences), some are reclaimed words, some are old words that just fell out of fashion for whatever reason.

from an outside perspective it can look very, very confusing. From an inside perspective it can be a lot to keep track of but like, that's getting into separate issues.

two things i wanna focus on by bringing this up:

Thing #1: When People Mockingly Get All "Oooh that's OFFENSIVE"

In my experience, this idea of the language-merry-go-round is one of the things I think people notice when seeing someone complain about a word that seems fine, or when they use an unknown (to the observer) label to define themselves. Or if they go into a space that was never meant to cater to them (like when cis folks go into trans spaces and get confused by the language used).

These are rapid changes in language and there will never be consensus on what's acceptable vs. what's not. So you gotta take it on a case-by-case basis.

Why does this kind of rapid change in language happen? I like Serano's answer there, too, tbh (But I also wanna say one reason it happens is the simple fact that you can change your opinion based on new information)

Stigma is the engine that keeps the “activist language merry-go-round” in perpetual motion. We grow up in a culture where everything related to being trans is deemed illegitimate, suspect, fake, immoral, ridiculous, gross, etc. These meanings seep into the words that people use to describe our bodies and lives, our identities and partners, the things that we do, and virtually anything associated with us. These negative meanings and the systemic social structures that propagate them run deep and remain largely out of our reach. One of the few areas in our lives in which we can exert a modicum of control is through language: the words that we personally choose to embrace (or discard), and the words that we will tolerate (or not tolerate) from the mouths of others.

This is why it's not uncommon to go into an activist space (whether it's focused on a particular gender, sexual, racial, whatever identity) and see very intense debates about language.

All this talk about "marginalized identities" or "systemic social structures" refers to large-scale, societal marginalization. This is treating groups of people as insignificant, periphial, as if they do not or should not exist. How that happens is complex and like, would bloat this out even more so y'know im gonna make a generous assumption that I don't need to write bullet points about it right the fuck now

When you're feeling that marginalization real hard (and it's a bad feel to be aware of), you can feel very powerless. One way to assert the power you do have is at least having a say in the language you use to define yourself, or is used to define you.

the “activist language merry-go-round” does not stop when the marginalized group finally finds *all the perfect words* to convey their identity and circumstance. It stops when people (or at least, a big chunk of society) cease projecting stigmatizing meanings, assumptions, and stereotypes onto those identities and circumstances.

while i'm here, you know what's not mentioned anywhere in this concept? "this wouldn't happen if people just didn't get offended"

Thing #2: Representing Marginalized Groups in Various Media Can Decrease Stigma

90% of what i have to say there is in the title line

The initial premise of this thread, many years ago, on a page far, far away, had the underlying assumption that the people who'd be posting cared about representation at least a little bit.

The amount of "why does this matter" and variations on "but have you tried not caring" really demonstrated otherwise.

so hey, if you're someone who rolls their eyes when they see someone say "you shouldn't use that word", or if you wonder "why does any of this matter", it's a lot more productive to like, learn about social stigma and maybe see the smallest of things you can do to decrease that.

or if you ABSOLUTELY could not CARE LESS, I assure you, busting in to tell people that they are wrong to care goes nowhere

Really small things you can do (that go a long way): respect the language people ask you to use

Slightly less small things you can go: consider writing more diversity into your work, whether it's trans characters or some other business
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
author=harmonic
Yes, everyone who disagrees with you must certainly disagree with you because they're dumb.


So would you be willing to concede, then, that people who disagree with you aren't necessarily all just overly-sensitive authoritarians looking to impress their opinions on you or SJW thrill seekers in search of the next great moral outrage?
harmonic
It's like toothpicks against a tank
4142
author=Solitayre
author=harmonic
Yes, everyone who disagrees with you must certainly disagree with you because they're dumb.
So would you be willing to concede, then, that people who disagree with you aren't necessarily all just overly-sensitive authoritarians looking to impress their opinions on you or SJW thrill seekers in search of the next great moral outrage?


Of course, I have no problem conceding that. By the way, you put "all of the people who are the bane of all things good" into words very nicely.

Since we go back a ways I know you are not some frothing at the mouth victim jockey. But really, that is how the outrage mafia comes off anymore, especially when these things happen.
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
Don't worry, Twitter lynch mobs will go away. They serve no useful purpose and people are already getting tired of them and speaking out against them.
BizarreMonkey
I'll never change. "Me" is better than your opinion, dummy!
1625
author=Solitayre
Don't worry, Twitter lynch mobs will go away. They serve no useful purpose and people are already getting tired of them and speaking out against them.
This goes back to what I said about four pages ago.

There's a very annoying minority in the SJW mix that are also very loud. I didn't know any respectable SJW's existed until this thread. They are also made more prominent by what a joke the internet has caused them to become.

Let's just say that I do not share your optimistic appraisal of the situation.

Also fun fact, I still have no fucking idea what cisgendered even means.

I wouldn't mind an explanation. I'm always trying to better myself as a Human being, and I feel ignorance on this matter is deflating that. It's not chosen ignorance, I've just never bothered to research it, sorta like a video game journalist doesn't research economics. It's not that I'm against knowledge, it's that it's never really been something I've had interest in.
Zeigfried_McBacon
I'm not staff anymore, so please don't ask me about that,especially game engine related stuff.
3767
author=BowelMovement
Also fun fact, I still have no fucking idea what cisgendered even means.

Basically, at least as far as I can tell, in plain English, being content with the gender and body parts you were born with.

(If anyone wants to elaborate with excessive academic jargon, be my guest)
BizarreMonkey
I'll never change. "Me" is better than your opinion, dummy!
1625
author=Zeigfried_McBacon
author=BowelMovement
Also fun fact, I still have no fucking idea what cisgendered even means.
Basically, at least as far as I can tell, in plain English, being content with the gender and body parts you were born with.

(If anyone wants to elaborate with excessive academic jargon, be my guest)
Okay that's what I was told, just with all the stink that's been kicking around I wasn't sure if they were on the right track.

Like what's so bad about that? Being happy is a sin now?

There must be more to it.
It's probably a little better to say that the body matches what the brain thinks the body is supposed to be.
Oh hell, Here's the wikipedia article on it.
slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4011
author=BowelMovement
Okay that's what I was told, just with all the stink that's been kicking around I wasn't sure if they were on the right track.

Like what's so bad about that? Being happy is a sin now?

There must be more to it.


I don't think anyone is saying it's bad, just that most people lack any sort of knowledge on being trans, or questioning gender norms in general. I imagine for most people, their only knowledge of transgender people comes from jokes in Always Sunny and Family Guy, which is... awful, really.
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
author=Zeigfried_McBacon
Basically, at least as far as I can tell, in plain English, being content with the gender and body parts you were born with.


This is more or less correct. It doesn't carry any negative connotations. It's just not typically used in everyday vernacular, typically used in educational discussion or in LGBT circles.
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
author=slash
I don't think anyone is saying it's bad, just that most people lack any sort of knowledge on being trans, or questioning gender norms in general. I imagine for most people, their only knowledge of transgender people comes from jokes in Always Sunny and Family Guy, which is... awful, really.


The one that comes to mind for me is South Park which is...much, much worse.
Was under the impression that cisgender referred to a societally accepted gender and sexual oriebtation, which would then refer to heterosexuality. So the only connotation is that it refers to hetero lifestyles in the senses that those who are cisgender may not understand what its like to live in a society that does not so easily accept other identities.

Hence the discussion about how cisgender developers portray other orientations.
harmonic
It's like toothpicks against a tank
4142
What's hilarious about this is that no one has expressed being any sort of homophobic, or transphobic.

Yet, still, the battle rages on.

Why? In the words of the great Nelson Muntz,

Gotta nuke somethin'.