OF GAMES, REPRESENTATION, AND WOMEN'S CHEEKBONES

Posts

Well, if you don't want people coming to "shit up" discussion, then maybe don't name-drop them? ...Look, if I'm being sincerely honest, I don't care what you believe. I don't care how many of you believe it. And I'd be more than happy to leave you the fuck alone to circle-jerk all day about it (In fact, that was my plan at the beginning of this thread, but eventually enough dumb things were said for me to want to pitch in) if only you were to leave other people the fuck alone. But I have no guarantee of that happening.

I can't really speak for anyone else here, but I'd say we don't want to shut down discussion, we want it to be re-framed in a way that does not give you license to boss people around, telling them what they can or cannot do or say, what is or what is not "acceptable" in 2015, which is the right hill to "go die on", or what makes a "decent" human being, and so on and so forth...

There's plenty of room to talk about representation in videogames without going to the extremes. For example, I'm Hispanic, and I would like to see more Hispanic characters in games, that go beyond the a)Drug dealer, b)Mariachi/Bandido c)Lucha Libre wrestler, and my favorite d)Aztec warrior... That alone is enough to spark interesting, meaningful discussions. But to go on a tirade of: "Ugh! Yet another white character, you're supporting white-supremacy, you'll get brown people killed everywhere!" Is not a very productive approach -to say the least- given the difference of opinions that is bound to happen on any -open to the public- space like this.

Face it, as long as you mix your "progressive" ideas with game development, threads like these remain of public interest. And discussion like these can pop up anywhere; anything and anyone can get the ball rolling... What's going to happen the day a heated discussion like this one occurs not on a dedicated thread, but on a non-dedicated thread like the "What are you thinking about" thread? Or in an article? Or a review? Are you going to "kick out" people from their own game-pages, so others don't feel "unsafe" and can have their ideas go unchallenged? I wonder how far could the administration of this forum let this rabbit hole go eventually.

What bothers me the most is how people keep saying they feel unwelcome, when no one is telling them: "You're not welcome here". I even urged the OP not to give up videogames because I can empathize with her at that level. Yet people in this thread are telling me and others: "You're not welcome here", almost verbatim. Some even calling for mass-bans... Go figure.
author=SnowOwl
Some thoughts on "safe spaces", which seems to be a popular word in these types of discussions: The whole idea of a "safe space" goes completely against what forums are for, which is discussion. If you really want to discuss something and not just have a bunch of people that pat each others backs, forget the whole idea of safe spaces. I'm pretty sure a couple of users and mods disagree with me on this, though.


You cannot have a discussion where hostility will be bred by people willingly and casually disrespecting the basic treatment of others. This is true in academic settings as well. That you think a discussion can somehow be managed in an atmosphere of this type shows a huge amount of not only naivety, but complete lack of knowledge of what you're talking about.

That you think "safe space" means "pat each others backs" also betrays your knowledge. I already mentioned that not all feminists agree on all matters. You're still operating on the fallacy that we're a hive mind.

If you're trying to say that we shouldn't have safe spaces because people have some kind of right to act like feral animals on the interwebs, then I don't really know what to say to you.

author=SnowOwl
It's a silly idea in the first place where you avert your eyes from reality, in a search for affirmation that you're special and everyone else should accommodate your every need. If you can't handle discussion where not everyone agrees with your ideas, just say so in the first post and specify that you don't want peoples opinions. Maybe name the topic "Everyone agree with me or get out".


"Avert my eyes from reality?" lol what a strawman. "Affirmation that I'm special" hahaha please thinly veil yourself more. You're transparent as glass.

author=SnowOwl
Just for clarity, that not to say I think that obvious trolls should be allowed to do whatever.


And yet what you say belies that statement.
author=alterego
Well, if you don't want people coming and "shit up" discussion, then maybe don't name-drop them? ...Look, if I'm being sincerely honest, I don't care what you believe. I don't care how many of you believe it. And I'd be more than happy to leave you the fuck alone to circle-jerk all day about it (In fact, that was my plan at the beginning of this thread, but eventually enough dumb things were said for me to want to pitch in) if only you were to leave other people the fuck alone. But I have no guarantee of that happening.


This discussion was shitted up long before I entered it, so fuck off with that kthx.

It's not our fault that y'all entered this thread looking to disrupt it. Kindly fuck off with that too.

author=alterego
I can't really speak for anyone else here, but I'd say we don't want to shut down discussion, we want it to be re-framed in a way that does not give you license to boss people around, telling them what they can or cannot do or say, what is or what is not "acceptable" in 2015, which is the right hill to "go die on", or what makes a "decent" human being, and so on and so forth...

There's plenty of room to talk about representation in videogames without going to the extremes. For example, I'm Hispanic, and I would like to see more Hispanic characters in games, that go beyond the a)Drug dealer, b)Mariachi/Bandido c)Lucha Libre wrestler, and my favorite d)Aztec warrior... That alone is enough to spark interesting, meaningful discussions. But to go on a tirade of: "Ugh! Yet another white character, you're supporting white-supremacy, you'll get brown people killed everywhere!" Is not a very productive approach -to say the least- given the difference of opinions that is bound to happen on any -open to the public- space like this.


We can have a discussion on this because some of what you say in the second paragraph I can agree with (and I can already tell where you got a lot of assumptions that I heavily disagree with from which ... is another discussion in itself), while what you began this quote with leads to a really tiresome strawman that I hear all the time from GamerGaters, MRAs, etc. I'm not going to squeeze blood from a stone though if you're just going to repeat yourself though.

author=alterego
Face it, as long as you mix your "progressive" ideas with game development, threads like these remain of public interest. And discussion like these can pop up anywhere; anything and anyone can get the ball rolling... What's going to happen the day a heated discussion like this occurs not on a dedicated thread like this one, but on a non-dedicated thread like the "what are you thinking about" thread? Or in an article? Or in a review? Are you going to "kick out" people from their own game-pages, so others don't feel "unsafe" and can have their ideas go unchallenged? I wonder how far could this site's administration let this rabbit hole go eventually.

What bothers the most is how people keep saying they feel welcome, when no one is telling them: "You're not welcome here". I even urged the OP not to stop playing videogames because I can empathize with her at that level. Yet people in this thread are telling me and others: "You're not welcome here", almost verbatim. Some even calling for mass-bans... Go figure.


This website is owned and maintained by the people who own and maintain this website; it is their choice what happens and is stored on it. Game pages are not owned by the authors of the games; they are rented space from this website.

Yeah, I don't have to explicitly see "You're not welcome here!" to think that there are people on this forum who don't want to treat me like a human being. There is such a thing as implied message with action.

I'm not going to repeat myself again so, whatever. You're operating on a belief that is basically a total caricature of what I really think.
author=ElectricalKat
I have a lot of problems with how several people in social justice circles carry themselves, but to those in this thread using "SJW" and tumblrlol like they're supposed to mean something please go warpspeed into a nebula of piss thanks. Basically every single time I hear those terms mentioned by people in GamerGate, MRAs, and the like, it is nearly always to try and demonize points of view that are anywhere nearly progressive.

This bugs me too. I thought "SJW" referred to a very specific kind of social media/forum user that doesn't actually want to change anyone's mind about any particular issue, they just like to scold. But now it's used for anyone who has progressive views at all. It's no wonder gamergate sees this huge SJW conspiracy, they've thrown that label at like millions of people who would probably be baffled to hear it attached to them.

It happens with a lot of words. "White Knight" used to mean a very specific type of male patronizing nerd. Now anyone who sticks up for anyone for any reason is going to get hit with that.

In American politics, if you stake out any economic position to the left of "screw the poor," you're a socialist. Perhaps that one says more about capitalism than socialism, however...

I think part of the reason threads like this go sour so reliably is that people use these specific labels at the slightest provocation and more often than not, they're not warranted. You're not necessarily an "SJW" if you avoid using slurs. You're probably just being polite.
That's because labels like SJW are a great way to pass the buck and blame someone else for the consequences of their speech. "Oh I'm just being honest. It's you're fault for being such an SJW."
author=Volrath
I think part of the reason threads like this go sour so reliably is that people use these specific labels at the slightest provocation and more often than not, they're not warranted. You're not necessarily an "SJW" if you avoid using slurs. You're probably just being polite.


When being violent against marginalized people is perceived not only as normal but also as desirable, every attempt at something different will be perceived as a threat and painted as radical, even though the latter more often than not is undeserved.
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
author=Alichains
That's because labels SJW are a great way to pass the buck and blame someone else for the consequences of their speech. "Oh I'm just being honest. It's you're fault for being such an SJW."

This is the big problem I have with the position of 'If someone/something is insulting to you, just suck it up and be a man instead of trying to ruin things for everyone." It takes the onus for our poor behavior and puts it back on the marginalized person. 'It's really their fault, not our fault!' They lose twice. And it removes any need of the greater culture to examine itself or make changes.

The way we treat marginalized persons is a reflection of ourselves as a people. Some people are made uncomfortable by what they see, so they blame the person holding up the mirror.
author=Solitayre
SnowOwl, that isn't what anyone in this thread is asking for. If you can't grasp this then I don't think you have anything further to contribute.
So what are they asking for? Anytime someone agrees with them they are patted on the back and told what a good person they are, and when someone voices a opinion that goes against them they are told to get out, in the best case. That goes for people that actually were civil, not just trolls. They say they want a discussion but when someone with the wrong opinion wants to discuss they get hostile, and that includes you too. You have told people to cease and desist several times, even though all they have done is voiced an opinion which you dislike.


author=ElectricalKat
You cannot have a discussion where hostility will be bred by people willingly and casually disrespecting the basic treatment of others. This is true in academic settings as well. That you think a discussion can somehow be managed in an atmosphere of this type shows a huge amount of not only naivety, but complete lack of knowledge of what you're talking about.
Nobody treated anyone as badly as you seem to think. Half the reason this discussion died down is because mods and some henceforth named "backpatters" told anyone that wanted discussion to get out. I'll leave the other half to your imagination.

author=ElectricalKat
That you think "safe space" means "pat each others backs" also betrays your knowledge. I already mentioned that not all feminists agree on all matters. You're still operating on the fallacy that we're a hive mind.
The real definition of "safe space" is irrelevant, it's what it means in this case that matters, and in this case a safe space seems to be a place where everyone tells each other what a wonderful person they are as long as they repeat the same, "correct" opinion. I also never mentioned anything about feminists, so I'm not sure how that came into the discussion.

author=ElectricalKat
Yeah, I don't have to explicitly see "You're not welcome here!" to think that there are people on this forum who don't want to treat me like a human being. There is such a thing as implied message with action.
Please give a couple of examples outside of this thread that someone would attack you for being a trans woman. I don't think I've ever seen something like that here except maybe in some game which was obviously made by some 12 year old. I'm genuinely interested.
author=Volrath
This bugs me too. I thought "SJW" referred to a very specific kind of social media/forum user that doesn't actually want to change anyone's mind about any particular issue, they just like to scold. But now it's used for anyone who has progressive views at all. It's no wonder gamergate sees this huge SJW conspiracy, they've thrown that label at like millions of people who would probably be baffled to hear it attached to them.


SJW used to mean a type of person who was pretty much that; stirring up drama just for the sake of the high. But ... that definition has certainly long since passed. :|

author=Volrath
It happens with a lot of words. "White Knight" used to mean a very specific type of male patronizing nerd. Now anyone who sticks up for anyone for any reason is going to get hit with that.

In American politics, if you stake out any economic position to the left of "screw the poor," you're a socialist. Perhaps that one says more about capitalism than socialism, however...

I think part of the reason threads like this go sour so reliably is that people use these specific labels at the slightest provocation and more often than not, they're not warranted. You're not necessarily an "SJW" if you avoid using slurs. You're probably just being polite.


I've seen authors get called SJW literally just for including characters of minorities! The word is pretty much used like conservatives use "liberal media"--just to try to label and downplay the importance of anyone who wants to make a progressive change. Are you a feminist who thinks people should pay just a little more attention to representation and issues of marginalized people in media? You're an SJW! SJW SJW SJW SSJJWWWW (SSJ SJW?)

author=Solitayre
author=Alichains
That's because labels SJW are a great way to pass the buck and blame someone else for the consequences of their speech. "Oh I'm just being honest. It's you're fault for being such an SJW."
This is the big problem I have with the position of 'If someone/something is insulting to you, just suck it up and be a man instead of trying to ruin things for everyone." It takes the onus for our poor behavior and puts it back on the marginalized person. 'It's really their fault, not our fault!' They lose twice. And it removes any need of the greater culture to examine itself or make changes.

The way we treat marginalized persons is a reflection of ourselves as a people. Some people are made uncomfortable by what they see, so they blame the person holding up the mirror.


Mhm. This. To a few people who are posting here, I'm the bad person for speaking up for myself and my right to be treated like a human being.

author=SnowOwl
So what are they asking for? Anytime someone agrees with them they are patted on the back and told what a good person they are, and when someone voices a opinion that goes against them they are told to get out, in the best case. That goes for people that actually were civil, not just trolls. They say they want a discussion but when someone with the wrong opinion wants to discuss they get hostile, and that includes you too. You have told people to cease and desist several times, even though all they have done is voiced an opinion which you dislike.


here, i'll translate this long-winded paragraph for everyone: "ma freeze peach"

author=SnowOwl
Nobody treated anyone as badly as you seem to think.


You don't get to define "badly" to me and any other marginalized people, kid. <3

author=SnowOwl
The real definition of "safe space" is irrelevant, it's what it means in this case that matters, and in this case a safe space seems to be a place where everyone tells each other what a wonderful person they are as long as they repeat the same, "correct" opinion. I also never mentioned anything about feminists, so I'm not sure how that came into the discussion.


Oh, so you admit that you misrepresented what "safe space" means and you're still trying to drive in that strawman? Are you intentionally being a buffoon?

Also the idea of safe spaces coincides with many issues brought up by feminism, social justice, et. al. and I'm pretty sure you were referring to that without mentioning the name. I'm not an idiot.

author=SnowOwl
Please give a couple of examples outside of this thread that someone would attack you for being a trans woman. I don't think I've ever seen something like that here except maybe in some game which was obviously made by some 12 year old. I'm genuinely interested.


You're not, as far as I've gathered. As I have said, I've no interest in squeezing blood from a stone. I'm not going to parse this entire website to satisfy something you cannot even bother to look for yourself.
iddalai
RPG Maker 2k/2k3 for life, baby!!
1194
Seriously, everyone should go and take a long deep look into a fucking mirror.

All this elitism is disgusting me.
author=iddalai
Seriously, everyone should go and take a long deep look into fucking a mirror.
All this elitism is disgusting me.


i hope you didn't mean to say 'you're as bad as them!!' because if so you have nothing to add here
Anyway, I've said enough. At this point people are just repeating themselves and/or ignoring (intentionally or not) what I typed, so I'm going to go back into suspended animation. I came back to this thread intending to find out how much things have changed since the last time I was here, and I've satisfied that. I know more than enough now.

Enjoy yourselves. :>
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
author=SnowOwl
author=Solitayre
SnowOwl, that isn't what anyone in this thread is asking for. If you can't grasp this then I don't think you have anything further to contribute.
So what are they asking for?

I'm not going to speak for them. I've seen people ask to be treated with respect and for them to have a chance to talk about issues that matter to them. And I've seen people come into this thread and others like it with dismissive and disparaging remarks pretty openly trying to shutter the conversation and stop it from happening. I've seen people say they can't be expected or bothered to show respect to people, that it's other people's responsibility to not get offended, that it's the mods' responsibility to police their behavior for them, that the community is controlled by fascists, by SJWs, that it's all a marxist plot, etc.

I don't know why people have a problem with marginalized folks bringing up issues important to them and educating people willing to listen! I think it's pretty great. I think educating people is how you combat ignorance and this weird backwards conspiracy paranoia that some people have where they feel like the whole world is at risk of a 1984 thought-police dystopia because they're asked to be respectful.
author=ElectricalKat
You don't get to define "badly" to me and any other marginalized people, kid. <3
I guess that's a convenient excuse to be able to go on with the glorified moaning.
author=ElectricalKat
Oh, so you admit that you misrepresented what "safe space" means and you're still trying to drive in that strawman? Are you intentionally being a buffoon?
It's not that I misrepresented it, it's that the phrase is basically made to mean something for a group of people that it's not meant to mean. Maybe it's the evolution of language. Who knows.

author=ElectricalKat
author=SnowOwl
Please give a couple of examples outside of this thread that someone would attack you for being a trans woman. I don't think I've ever seen something like that here except maybe in some game which was obviously made by some 12 year old. I'm genuinely interested.
You're not, as far as I've gathered. As I have said, I've no interest in squeezing blood from a stone. I'm not going to parse this entire website to satisfy something you cannot even bother to look for yourself.
Well, I already knew you wouldn't give examples. The fact is that you're probably seeing enemies that doesn't exist, because you've been hardwired to do so. I feel for you, but your hostility towards everyone basically means your prophecies are self-fulfilling.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=alterego
if only you were to leave other people the fuck alone. But I have no guarantee of that happening.

The amount of self-ignorance is staggering. Let's not assume that just because you're present for a discussion means that you have to have your voice heard.

author=Solitayre
author=Alichains
That's because labels SJW are a great way to pass the buck and blame someone else for the consequences of their speech. "Oh I'm just being honest. It's you're fault for being such an SJW."
This is the big problem I have with the position of 'If someone/something is insulting to you, just suck it up and be a man instead of trying to ruin things for everyone." It takes the onus for our poor behavior and puts it back on the marginalized person. 'It's really their fault, not our fault!' They lose twice. And it removes any need of the greater culture to examine itself or make changes.

The way we treat marginalized persons is a reflection of ourselves as a people. Some people are made uncomfortable by what they see, so they blame the person holding up the mirror.

The truth hurts and the weak tremble and lash out to defend what little ground they believe they have left.

author=SnowOwl
author=ElectricalKat
That you think "safe space" means "pat each others backs" also betrays your knowledge. I already mentioned that not all feminists agree on all matters. You're still operating on the fallacy that we're a hive mind.
The real definition of "safe space" is irrelevant, it's what it means in this case that matters, and in this case a safe space seems to be a place where everyone tells each other what a wonderful person they are as long as they repeat the same, "correct" opinion. I also never mentioned anything about feminists, so I'm not sure how that came into the discussion.

Perhaps a "safe space" is where people can think critically while also not having to put up with people screaming behind them to "get over themselves".

author=SnowOwl
author=ElectricalKat
Yeah, I don't have to explicitly see "You're not welcome here!" to think that there are people on this forum who don't want to treat me like a human being. There is such a thing as implied message with action.
Please give a couple of examples outside of this thread that someone would attack you for being a trans woman. I don't think I've ever seen something like that here except maybe in some game which was obviously made by some 12 year old. I'm genuinely interested.

Ignorance is bliss. "I don't see it therefore it must not exist.

author=ElectricalKat
I've seen authors get called SJW literally just for including characters of minorities! The word is pretty much used like conservatives use "liberal media"--just to try to label and downplay the importance of anyone who wants to make a progressive change. Are you a feminist who thinks people should pay just a little more attention to representation and issues of marginalized people in media? You're an SJW! SJW SJW SJW SSJJWWWW (SSJ SJW?)

Coincidentally, I made an ironic gif relevant to this exact point.



I even encouraged those who were of the sort to demonize people for striving for a change to use it as their avatar. It works for some people.
author=Corfaisus
author=alterego
if only you were to leave other people the fuck alone. But I have no guarantee of that happening.
The amount of self-ignorance is staggering. Let's not assume that just because you're present for a discussion means that you have to have your voice heard.

The truth hurts and the weak tremble and lash out to defend what little ground they believe they have left.

Can't argue with that. No one looked into a mirror and said "Max Mcgee" three times. More to the point. It's one thing if you're arguing an educated view. The problem here is that all of the dissenters, and I do mean all, have essentially been going "but what about the flat earthers!? That's not worth anyone's time and it's a pain that it keeps showing up without fail.
author=Corfaisus
author=ElectricalKat
I've seen authors get called SJW literally just for including characters of minorities! The word is pretty much used like conservatives use "liberal media"--just to try to label and downplay the importance of anyone who wants to make a progressive change. Are you a feminist who thinks people should pay just a little more attention to representation and issues of marginalized people in media? You're an SJW! SJW SJW SJW SSJJWWWW (SSJ SJW?)
Coincidentally, I made an ironic gif relevant to this exact point.



I even encouraged those who were of the sort to demonize people for striving for a change to use it as their avatar. It works for some people.


returning from cryosleep to give this a Like :D
Yellow Magic
Could I BE any more Chandler Bing from Friends (TM)?
3154
author=Sated
I'm against dictating who can or can't post in specific threads. If you want to outright ban someone then go ahead, but don't pick and choose where they can or can't post; it's a messy, non-specific way of applying the rules that will probably just lead to confusion.

Hear, hear. This thread is a very strange one to me because it's a miracle that it's survived up to 30 pages with no-one being banned, and yet there are posts like this:

author=Solitayre
I'm not okay with this. This is a greenlight for people to come in and be as disruptive and disparaging as possible as long as they're very careful to not technically break any rules.

If they're technically not breaking any rules, then what's the issue? People should be allowed to post whatever within the boundaries laid out by whatever rules RMN enforces...
What use is the letter if the spirit is allowed to be broken?
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
It's an indicator that our rules might be due for revision. Right now they're in a nebulous place where people are disruptive and get yelled at but we don't actually do anything about it, so really it just ends up with nobody happy.

There was talk earlier in this thread about a user code of conduct and while I'm cynical and think that won't do any good because certain people have already made it clear that they can't be bothered to follow the rules, I think it is step in the right direction for everyone to hammer out and agree on exactly what is and isn't acceptable behavior in discussions. So maybe be on the look out for discussion about that in the future.