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[DESIGN/MARKETING] WHY SO SECRETIVE?
Posts
Rine
1378
Rine
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CloseSo something I've noticed a lot in these forums, and always made me curious: Why do people want to keep their ideas a secret when they post about them, especially when wanting to recruit others?
Admittedly, it always seems to be a new poster comes on, posts about an idea they want to do, but not give details, and then asking for scripting help or sprites.
It boggles my mind, I guess because a rather large thing that got drilled into me was 'fail early, fail often' in the few design courses I've taken. The basic theory is if its testable, test it as early as possible, so you can find out the flaws before it grows so large that they become unfixable. Simple things like making sure your jumping mechanics are right, or that your combat system feels right. It also works for ideas though, get your ideas out in front of as many people as possible, so people can point out flaws in them. Story, systems, all of those should be vetted as much as possible, and as early as possible.
I guess often people think that their one big idea is so amazing they don't want others to steal it, but don't realize that everyone else is working on their own ideas. In addition, most of the time people think their idea is new...when its not "Card game based RPG!" *points to the SNES DBZ game*. Games are more about execution than unique ideas. Pretty much every game nowadays, no matter how unique, can have their ideas traced back to something else.
Maybe I'm missing something?
Admittedly, it always seems to be a new poster comes on, posts about an idea they want to do, but not give details, and then asking for scripting help or sprites.
It boggles my mind, I guess because a rather large thing that got drilled into me was 'fail early, fail often' in the few design courses I've taken. The basic theory is if its testable, test it as early as possible, so you can find out the flaws before it grows so large that they become unfixable. Simple things like making sure your jumping mechanics are right, or that your combat system feels right. It also works for ideas though, get your ideas out in front of as many people as possible, so people can point out flaws in them. Story, systems, all of those should be vetted as much as possible, and as early as possible.
I guess often people think that their one big idea is so amazing they don't want others to steal it, but don't realize that everyone else is working on their own ideas. In addition, most of the time people think their idea is new...when its not "Card game based RPG!" *points to the SNES DBZ game*. Games are more about execution than unique ideas. Pretty much every game nowadays, no matter how unique, can have their ideas traced back to something else.
Maybe I'm missing something?
SnowOwl
5188
You said it: Because they think their ideas are unique and cool and that people would actually want to steal them. 99/100 times they are not though, and even if it is, nobody wants to steal it anyway because they think their own ideas are much cooler.
You guys are absolutely right.
Thieves want fully formed, saleable ideas. They don't want to work. They don't care if someone comes up and says, "Hey, I got this cool idea where this guy, right? He gets into this accident and the doctors make him a cyborg." Who cares? Actually post the story you write, though? That will be stolen.
Thieves want fully formed, saleable ideas. They don't want to work. They don't care if someone comes up and says, "Hey, I got this cool idea where this guy, right? He gets into this accident and the doctors make him a cyborg." Who cares? Actually post the story you write, though? That will be stolen.
in my case it's actually the same reason my games have shitty advertising / gamepages / descriptions: I don't want to disappoint or to create bias to potential players. I'm a shit writer so I'd rather have them have impressions of my game by playing it than reading about it.
This is dumb and I need to change it, though.
This is dumb and I need to change it, though.
author=Rine
Games are more about execution than unique ideas.
This is an exceptional thing to realize and I'm glad you have. I know a developer who is so paranoid that people might steal his ideas that he is afraid to put his story documents on the cloud.
author=JosephSeraph
in my case it's actually the same reason my games have shitty advertising / gamepages / descriptions: I don't want to disappoint or to create bias to potential players. I'm a shit writer so I'd rather have them have impressions of my game by playing it than reading about it.
Regarding this end of the spectrum, I think I'm learning to make a game rather than write about it. I brag about my games by default. I can talk for days, but actually do anything? That's harder.
On the other hand, I've found you can find a calming sense of zen in the process by creating, then showing, then creating, then showing, if it's with someone close to you who doesn't mind commenting, giving a short "cool" or "that's interesting" now and then. Validation of these goals helps me be a bit more productive by providing incentive to my actions. It's fickle, it's shallow, but it works.
author=pianotm
You guys are absolutely right.
Thieves want fully formed, saleable ideas. They don't want to work. They don't care if someone comes up and says, "Hey, I got this cool idea where this guy, right? He gets into this accident and the doctors make him a cyborg." Who cares? Actually post the story you write, though? That will be stolen.
Not really, no. And even if someone did come along and pinch an idea, it's not like they'll do it justice, especially if they're lazy enough to want to steal an idea in the first place. Frankly, hiding your ideas is stupid because even if someone else did take it, that doesn't mean it'll turn out anything like the image you had formed in your mind. How many events have we held with the same theme, where each and every game in them were completely different despite the fact they started from the same base?
People should be happy to share their ideas. Flood the market with your ideas so that those 'scary idea thieves' are inundated with them on such a level that they'd have trouble picking one over the other.
Honestly, I'm more worried about people stealing a finished project - a map or a game or graphics - than a fucking idea. I have faith in myself as a writer to make something out of my ideas that no-one else would - and besides, my ideas evolve over the design and creation process. They never come out exactly the way they started and that? That's something that can't be stolen. Also, style.
Want proof? Minecraft. How many shitty Minecraft clones have flooded the market since it became a big thing? And how many of them are successful, again? Same idea does not mean same game. FFS.
Rine
1378
@Liberty: Hell, technically Minecraft was inspired by Infiniminer, Dwarf Fortress, and Dungeon Keeper. Taking an idea and putting a cool spin on it can easily make it something entirely different. Put Legend of Zelda in the age of myths in Japan, and add watercolors, and you get Okami.
Inspiration is different from straight out stealing, though. It might have been inspired by those games but it stands alone as being very separate and different in the way it plays and looks. It's like how Game of Thrones was inspired by Lord of the Rings - there are aspects where you can see it, but it's not the same thing at all.
I've been inspired by games on this site and used them as idea-launchers - there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Take a dash of Craze-game, a pinch of Nessy and Rhyme difficulty/cuteness, a slap of Decky's cool mapping and a dollop of dungeon crawling goodness. Mix it with the Libertron 9000 and voila~ gam.
I've been inspired by games on this site and used them as idea-launchers - there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Take a dash of Craze-game, a pinch of Nessy and Rhyme difficulty/cuteness, a slap of Decky's cool mapping and a dollop of dungeon crawling goodness. Mix it with the Libertron 9000 and voila~ gam.
Rine
1378
Oh I know, practically all art is inspired by prior art. Outright stealing is when you see 'Sweet Squish' on the Apple store and it looks suspiciously like another candy flavored matching game...
Still, on the original topic, a lot of posters seem to be worried that their idea for an RPG will get outright stolen, which seems to me to show a lack of confidence in their abilities otherwise. If all you have going for you is your idea, as opposed to your ability to balance combat well, write a good story, execute said story, and actually finish something...well, you didn't have much to steal in the first place.
Still, on the original topic, a lot of posters seem to be worried that their idea for an RPG will get outright stolen, which seems to me to show a lack of confidence in their abilities otherwise. If all you have going for you is your idea, as opposed to your ability to balance combat well, write a good story, execute said story, and actually finish something...well, you didn't have much to steal in the first place.
Infinite
2103
My guess is many of those posts are from kids who don't know any better. They get their hands on Rpg Maker, form an idea, and think the game will create itself. When they realize it's harder than they thought, they come looking for help from artists, composers, programmers, etc.
author=SnowOwl
You said it: Because they think their ideas are unique and cool and that people would actually want to steal them. 99/100 times they are not though, and even if it is, nobody wants to steal it anyway because they think their own ideas are much cooler.
Yeah, people really don't understand that ideas alone are pretty nebulous, especially in a story or a game. There is so much craft and personal flavor that goes into making them that even if someone does "steal your idea" it's most likely not going to look anything like the game you make anyway.
That's why before the first McBacon Jam, when I made a thread with a bunch of my future game ideas, I wasn't worried about theft. If someone else does take one and make a game out of it, then that just means that there's another game that potentially will be fun for me to play.
Also, newbies wanting to get a team together hardly ever seem to realize that the thing that's actually going to interest people are the ideas (though some examples of prior works are also a big thing they never seem to list). No one wants to join your team if they have no idea what they will be making.
author=pianotm
Sorry, have had my stuff stolen.
;_; I'm so sorry to hear that; that's absolutely dreadful! As you mentioned stories before, did a finished story get stolen from you?
author=unityauthor=SnowOwlYeah, people really don't understand that ideas alone are pretty nebulous, especially in a story or a game. There is so much craft and personal flavor that goes into making them that even if someone does "steal your idea" it's most likely not going to look anything like the game you make anyway.
You said it: Because they think their ideas are unique and cool and that people would actually want to steal them. 99/100 times they are not though, and even if it is, nobody wants to steal it anyway because they think their own ideas are much cooler.
That's why before the first McBacon Jam, when I made a thread with a bunch of my future game ideas, I wasn't worried about theft. If someone else does take one and make a game out of it, then that just means that there's another game that potentially will be fun for me to play.
Also, newbies wanting to get a team together hardly ever seem to realize that the thing that's actually going to interest people are the ideas (though some examples of prior works are also a big thing they never seem to list). No one wants to join your team if they have no idea what they will be making.
author=pianotm
Sorry, have had my stuff stolen.
;_; I'm so sorry to hear that; that's absolutely dreadful! As you mentioned stories before, did a finished story get stolen from you?
Articles. Several. I was a writer for examiner.com. A lot of people on there get ripped off. I'm not just talking about re-blogging, but people taking credit for articles and getting paid.
The actual thing I've realized is that ideas are not original. They're based on universal cultural myths, and the so-called original stories are actually a composite of several concepts, or tropes, to make a new idea.
Here's some of the more common ones:
The difference is how one adapts these concepts into a coherent idea. My latest game (Girl of my Dreams) takes the Otherworldly Wife concept in mounts it onto my life story.
The most original thing you can do as an rpg maker is figure out how to deviate from the Heroic Quest, since this is overplayed.
Here's some of the more common ones:
- The immortal Person (Dorian Grey, Merlin, etc)
- Resurrection (Before Jesus, there were a few, such as Mithra, Horus, and even Buddha)
- Otherworldly Wife (Little Mermaid, selkies, the story of the angel girl in Japan)
- Flood
- Heroic Quest
- Creation(it varies though, depending on religion)
- Apocalypse
The difference is how one adapts these concepts into a coherent idea. My latest game (Girl of my Dreams) takes the Otherworldly Wife concept in mounts it onto my life story.
The most original thing you can do as an rpg maker is figure out how to deviate from the Heroic Quest, since this is overplayed.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
Yeah generally the stuff that gets swiped is finished because thieves are generally disinclined to do actual work.
I tend to play my cards close to my chest only because I find that giving out too much info makes me less excited to put a work out.
I tend to play my cards close to my chest only because I find that giving out too much info makes me less excited to put a work out.
Kaempfer
1932
author=Rine
@Liberty: Hell, technically Minecraft was inspired by Infiniminer, Dwarf Fortress, and Dungeon Keeper.
author=Liberty
Inspiration is different from straight out stealing, though. It might have been inspired by those games but it stands alone as being very separate and different in the way it plays and looks.
You can't accuse Minecraft clones of being Minecraft clones and then say that Minecraft just took "inspiration" from Infiniminer. The original Minecraft prototypes (before Notch discovered Infiniminer) looked like old first-person DOS RPGs. He found the combination of crafting and Infiniminer that appealed to a lot of people which is a skill in its own right, but a lot of the "mine blocks!" games that are out now are equally different from Minecraft as Minecraft is from Infiniminer (many are more so).
Crystalgate
694
author=Sooz
Yeah generally the stuff that gets swiped is finished because thieves are generally disinclined to do actual work.
I tend to play my cards close to my chest only because I find that giving out too much info makes me less excited to put a work out.
That is a problem I have heard actually exist for many people with talking about your work. It can make you less exited as you said, but I have also heard that it can make you erroneously feel that actual work has been done even though it hasn't.
Being secretive may actually be a good idea, not because of danger of stealing, but because giving out to much can stop you from doing the actual work.
Infinite
2103
author=Crystalgateauthor=SoozThat is a problem I have heard actually exist for many people with talking about your work. It can make you less exited as you said, but I have also heard that it can make you erroneously feel that actual work has been done even though it hasn't.
Yeah generally the stuff that gets swiped is finished because thieves are generally disinclined to do actual work.
I tend to play my cards close to my chest only because I find that giving out too much info makes me less excited to put a work out.
Being secretive may actually be a good idea, not because of danger of stealing, but because giving out to much can stop you from doing the actual work.
