RACE AND GENDER IN GAMES

Posts

unity
You're magical to me.
12150
author=emmych
EDIT: UNITY U NINJA'D ME but yes that was the comment I was talking about.

Hahaha <3

author=iddalai
author=emmych
While a lot of people are all "YAY LESBIANS <3" you still get weirdos being all "ugh this is WEIRD and so GAY i don't LIKE IT".
Why should every one have to like lesbian games? Why does someone who doesn't like gay/lesbian/trans games have to be a weirdo?

I don't like sports games, am I a weirdo?

There's a big difference between saying "Hey, this game looks neat but I'm not into lesbians so I'll pass" and "ugh this is WEIRD and so GAY i don't LIKE IT." There's nothing wrong with disliking a game, but if you're going out of your way to make a fuss about it, then that's extremely rude, especially if you're insulting people who do like that sort of thing.

I take zero offense if people want to pass on something because they don't like it. But there's a difference between that and going off the rails and being a jerk.
NeverSilent
Got any Dexreth amulets?
6131
I think this example shows pretty well that we all need to cool down a little and be careful not to make enemies of people who are in fact on the same side, just getting confused over wordings or unclear examples.
Going into fits of paranoia over a perceived pressure to "censor" or "self-censor" works is just as unhelpful as exaggerating perceived intolerance where there is ignorance at worst and plain innocence and the wish to learn and discuss things freely at best.

emmych, I'm sure you have the heart in the right place and only want the best for everyone involved. But it is also very obvious you are very angry over nasty things people have thrown at you in the past. And while that is absolutely understandable, you should be more careful whom you direct this anger towards.
Yes, I agree that that comment on Luxaren Allure seems pretty silly and pointless. But you are making a huge amount of assumptions over a two sentence comment whose author never explained themself more precisely. And there is really no need to generalise so much when it comes to audience reactions towards non-heterosexual characters and content. Unfortunately, there will always be a few bigots or insensitive people shouting their nonsense for the world to hear. But just because a few "members of the majority" have unreflected or plain disgusting views, you don't have to assume the whole "majority" is against you. In fact, I'm pretty sure most people here would agree with the gist of what you're saying, just not the way in which you present your views.

In short, let's try to save our aggressions for the real threats, instead of attacking our (potential) friends and allies.

Edit: Also, what unity said.
Yeah, shame is a terrible tactic for positive change. If it worked, fetishism wouldn't exist.

author=emmych
3) if the issue was murky consent, I can assure you: I've played the game, the woman who is Shy and Unsure makes a decision to cuddle all on her own. There is no coercion or sexual assault happening here, and I am fucking militant when it comes to consent.

Like there was literally nothing about this scene that could be interpreted as Uncomfortable EXCEPT for the fact it involved two women. It's homophobia. Even if the person just doesn't like fluffy shoujo cuddle scenes: LA is clearly advertised as being ABOUT romantic relationships. Why did they feel the need to comment? Why do people never rudely comment on games with straight relationships that are super hamfisted and equally in your face? Again: the answer is HOMOPHOBIA.

I feel like you're kind of making the point for the opposite camp with this example. Argh found the scene in question uncomfortable, and from what I've played of Luxaren Allure, Merel is pretty aggressive (which is fine in an anime kind of way, but it's not the most natural behavior). There are lots of moments in anime where I cringe because of that kind of relationship dynamic, and just about all of them are straight.

Accusing argh of homophobia is a pretty major charge, and it's coming from a lot of extrapolation on your part. I've had a decent amount of conversations with argh on some of my game pages, and I feel safe to say that they were making that comment based on an anti-molestation (edit: this isn't the right phrase, but I can't think of a better one--I hope my meaning is coming across) angle rather than a homophobic angle. I heavily encourage you to call them homophobic and see who feels ashamed by the end of that conversation.
@NeverSilent: Do you have an alternate interpretation, then? Since I assure you, I have seen enough homophobia to recognize it when it's staring me in the face, and the poster who made that comment never showed up to elaborate on what they meant.

Also I am not nearly as angry as you seem to think I am, here! I'm pretty frustrated, and so I probably sound kind of short, but that is just the failing of text-only communication. Really tho, I gotta ask: if you repeatedly had to have the "yes, actually, this DOES hurt" "NO IT DOESN'T, YOU LYING LIAR FACE, YOU'RE AS BAD AS THE PEOPLE WHO HURT YOU!!!" convo, would you not get frustrated? Instead of shutting me down because my tone makes you uncomfortable, why not engage with what I'm actually saying?

Anyway I love myself so I am just going to leave this as food for thought and stop checking this thread, since it only ever raises my blood pressure.
@emmych
I've gone through the comments on the 2 games that you have here on RMN and I can't find a single comment that could be said to be trying to correct anything gender related. There was one comment where the author was confused about what gender some characters was, which is not a negative comment. Maybe you did get that one message that you said you got, but who knows.

I also went through the first ten pages of Luxaren Allure before I got tired of it and I also can't find a single comment along the lines of "ugh this is WEIRD and so GAY i don't LIKE IT". Maaaaybe something that if you really interpret it however you want that could be along the lines of "YAY LESBIANS <3".

At least use examples that actually happened. Lying doesn't make for a very good discussion.
Edit: This is in response to the first answer emmych made to my post on last page.
unity
You're magical to me.
12150
author=SnowOwl
@emmych
I've gone through the comments on the 2 games that you have here on RMN and I can't find a single comment that could be said to be trying to correct anything gender related. There was one comment where the author was confused about what gender some characters was, which is not a negative comment. Maybe you did get that one message that you said you got, but who knows.

I also went through the first ten pages of Luxaren Allure before I got tired of it and I also can't find a single comment along the lines of "ugh this is WEIRD and so GAY i don't LIKE IT". Maaaaybe something that if you really interpret it however you want that could be along the lines of "YAY LESBIANS <3".

At least use examples that actually happened. Lying doesn't make for a very good discussion.
Edit: This is in response to the first answer emmych made to my post on last page.


People send comments via PMs too, you know. Some of the ones I referenced in my post came from PMs and not just in public comments.
NeverSilent
Got any Dexreth amulets?
6131
author=emmych
Do you have an alternate interpretation, then?
Yes, I do. See Housekeeping's post.

author=emmych
Since I assure you, I have seen enough homophobia to recognize it when it's staring me in the face, and the poster who made that comment never showed up to elaborate on what they meant.
I apologise for this perhaps sounding kind of mean, but this might be the problem. People made you suffer through bad experiences in the past - which, again, is terrible - and now you are overinterpreting things and seeing enemies where there are none.


author=emmych
Really tho, I gotta ask: if you repeatedly had to have the "yes, actually, this DOES hurt" "NO IT DOESN'T, YOU LYING LIAR FACE, YOU'RE AS BAD AS THE PEOPLE WHO HURT YOU!!!" convo, would you not get frustrated?
Yes, I absolutely would get frustrated at that. I agree with you. And I think the people who have tried to hurt you are doing a terrible thing. But I never said otherwise. I only said that maybe you are getting too upset at people who never even wanted to hurt you, but only question your views and manners of expression.

author=emmych
Instead of shutting me down because my tone makes you uncomfortable, why not engage with what I'm actually saying?
I'm not trying to shut you down. And I want to engage with what you're actually saying. But I can't help it if what you are trying to get across does not make sense to me, be it because of communication problems or because the content of your comments seems self-contradictory to me. I can't read your mind. You'll have to help me out here if you want me to understand you.
author=unity
People send comments via PMs too, you know. Some of the ones I referenced in my post came from PMs and not just in public comments.
emmych's message specifically stated that I should look at the gamepage of Luxaren Allure.
The intention was, presumably, to make it sound like there are hordes of people shaming you for having lesbians in your game. That is not the truth. It's plain bullshit, because a staggering majority is positive.
Edit: and before even trying anything that could be said to be a discussion, she leaves because "omg I'm so upset right now I don't want to listen to you lalalalalalalalalala can't hear you lalalalalalalala". Brilliant.
Emmych: What you're reffering to is tone policing - it's a way of dodging an argument by accusing the opposing party of being rude or aggressive. It's a lazy way of claiming you're in the right while sounding like a broken record.
unity
You're magical to me.
12150
author=SnowOwl
author=unity
People send comments via PMs too, you know. Some of the ones I referenced in my post came from PMs and not just in public comments.
emmych's message specifically stated that I should look at the gamepage of Luxaren Allure.
The intention was, presumably, to make it sound like there are hordes of people shaming you for having lesbians in your game. That is not the truth. It's plain bullshit, because a staggering majority is positive.


Yet you made it your quest to look thru her gamepages too and called her a liar? Calm down, man. She was just making a point that people can still be rude about these sorts of things.

I admit that the staggering majority of comments I get for LA are positive. That's my point, really, that I haven't been shut down by some angry SJW force for having a game filled with gay characters.
author=unity
author=SnowOwl
author=unity
People send comments via PMs too, you know. Some of the ones I referenced in my post came from PMs and not just in public comments.
emmych's message specifically stated that I should look at the gamepage of Luxaren Allure.
The intention was, presumably, to make it sound like there are hordes of people shaming you for having lesbians in your game. That is not the truth. It's plain bullshit, because a staggering majority is positive.
Yet you made it your quest to look thru her gamepages too and called her a liar? Calm down, man. She was just making a point that people can still be rude about these sorts of things.

I admit that the staggering majority of comments I get for LA are positive. That's my point, really, that I haven't been shut down by some angry SJW force for having a game filled with gay characters.


That's because the threat of SJWs shouting down games for the sake of political correctness is completely imaginary - it's just made up to rally people for strengthening your own racist beliefs.
author=unity
author=SnowOwl
author=unity
People send comments via PMs too, you know. Some of the ones I referenced in my post came from PMs and not just in public comments.
emmych's message specifically stated that I should look at the gamepage of Luxaren Allure.
The intention was, presumably, to make it sound like there are hordes of people shaming you for having lesbians in your game. That is not the truth. It's plain bullshit, because a staggering majority is positive.
Yet you made it your quest to look thru her gamepages too and called her a liar? Calm down, man. She was just making a point that people can still be rude about these sorts of things.

I admit that the staggering majority of comments I get for LA are positive. That's my point, really, that I haven't been shut down by some angry SJW force for having a game filled with gay characters.

I'm as calm as can be. The only reason I went through the gamepages was because I just wanted to confirm what I already pretty much knew, that what she said was untrue. Some people claim that sources is everthing in this kind of conversation, so I was just making sure before answering. And what's wrong with calling someone out on a lie?
Alot of people, dare I say it, claiming to be victims either outright lie or exaggerate their claims. I'm really tired of this. I'm pretty sure its to gain some kind of emotional leverage or moral high-ground, basically so that people won't question whatever they say. Just look at what just happened for a prime example.
slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4008
SnowOwl, you're wasting everyone's time being pedantic and incredibly nitpicky. Stop trying to conjure up a conspiracy.


To contribute to the topic at large - I do think that vitriolic criticism sucks and generally suffers by being vitriolic. But - I can't blame people for being angry and hurt when they are represented poorly, especially when it's everywhere. Take something like the Baldur's Gate expansion. Trans people are so very rarely represented in media and - when they are represented - so very often represented badly, or with bad writing. It's incredibly important to be critical of that so we all can improve. Part of writing or creating anything is being critiqued and there's no way around it.

While I see some communities take it too far (to the extent of threatening the creator, which is way past critique) it's incredibly important. Why is this being critiqued? What about it causes people to be that upset? The easy and lazy answer is "they're too sensitive" or "they're just dumb" which is how so many childish game devs respond to even mild criticism. Don't attempt something difficult, fuck it up, and then overreact like some new chump when somebody criticizes it. Life's tough, game dev is tough, writing diverse characters can be tough, get tough.
NeverSilent
Got any Dexreth amulets?
6131
author=LightningLord2
Emmych: What you're reffering to is tone policing - it's a way of dodging an argument by accusing the opposing party of being rude or aggressive. It's a lazy way of claiming you're in the right while sounding like a broken record.
All right. Let me ask you this: Do you want to take me seriously as a discussion partner and maybe consider that I might have my reasons for saying what I'm saying, or not? I do not want to shut emmych down, nor do I want to shut you or anyone else down. All I did was express my concern that emmych is targeting the wrong people with their criticism, and that engaging in aggression only makes the other person more likely to dismiss you as someone that can't be reasoned with. It's basic human psychology.

Again, let me emphasise that I am on your side! I abhor discrimination of any kind, and I truly want to understand why you believe what you believe. But if what you are saying is based on claims that make no logical sense to me, and you employ strategies of communication that are counterproductive to your goals in this discussion, then I don't know what to tell you.


Edit: Dang, slash just sniped me with a way better post.
who on earth convinced people that a pedantic tangent where you hunt through a person's game page to accuse them of 'playing the victim' is okay? you throw nonsense in someone's face and then act like you've won a moral victory when you eventually shout them out of the conversation altogether

that is unacceptable by any standard and I am ashamed to be a part of the same forum as this

e: also it's the easiest thing in the world to say you're against discrimination! focus less on shouting 'I'm on your side' and more on truly putting that into practice thru self-reflection and awareness of the circumstances
author=slash
SnowOwl, you're wasting everyone's time being pedantic and incredibly nitpicky.

If anyone is wasting someones time, it's the professional victim.
I rest my case.
unity
You're magical to me.
12150
That's why I questioned SnowOwl's calmness. Calm people generally do not go on witch-hunts.

author=SnowOwl
Edit: and before even trying anything that could be said to be a discussion, she leaves because "omg I'm so upset right now I don't want to listen to you lalalalalalalalalala can't hear you lalalalalalalala". Brilliant.


This very much makes it sound like your amusement takes priority over their well-being. People are perfectly free to leave a forum discussion at any time if it is upsetting them. You are being extremely petty.
author=SnowOwl
If anyone is wasting someones time, it's the professional victim.
I rest my case.

I think this statement alone is a Furious Gamer Reactionary Bingo
Why even engage in a discussion if all you're going to do is come in and disrupt the discussion currently going on to go: "Hi people this has almost nothing to do with the current discussion, but hey, look at how badly people treat me, look at how mean people are to me, look at me, me, me. Bohohoho why won't you pity me I am upset now, bye."
Edit: I freely admit, I enjoy calling those types of people out on their bullshit. I consider it a win-win, since both me and the professional victim gets what they want, I get the satisfaction of calling someone out on their bullshit, the professional victim gets the attention they crave. If they leave after that, all the better.
author = SnowOwl
I've gone through the comments on the 2 games that you have here on RMN and I can't find a single comment that could be said to be trying to correct anything gender related. There was one comment where the author was confused about what gender some characters was, which is not a negative comment. Maybe you did get that one message that you said you got, but who knows.

At the moment I'm only popping in to back em up on this point since yes, I worked on this game too, and have had to deal with more frustrating comments in private rather than public. Short of violating people's privacy and saying "LOOK!!!! LOOK WHAT THIS PERSON SAID!" I can't "prove" much of anything.

If you feel that translates to:
claiming to be victims either outright lie or exaggerate their claims
there's really not anything I can do about that. I don't think I could provide any "evidence" that would clear the burden of proof you've set for yourself here.

There's been an off-site review that, even while being overall positive, still has:
While the game does a nice job of keeping true to the 1920’s era, I feel that certain aspects with gender/ sexual identity wouldn’t have been so expressive. Also it is quite confusing to the player when Lana refers to Kozmin as her sister then Kozmin herself calls herself "Mr. Kozmin". Graphically everything looks really well even though but Kozmin and Mortimer both look straight up like men and not women at all.

Besides being wrong about history (the greatest offense of all!!!!), it's frustrating when people try to point out what gender people "should" look like and I really take issue when people describe trans women as "looking like men". I already hollered about that idea in a previous thread I'm sure.

The person who sent the corrections to perceived mistakes with gender was shyaoko. Whatever their intent, it was not welcome, to put it lightly. (And by naming this person, will you say I'm trying to encourage "shaming"? Even though emmych was just outright accused of lying about this?)

I've seen a livestream where Mortimer was referred to with the t-slur (I mean on top of general mocking...) but I can't exactly go dig that up for PROOF!!!! now can I

Honestly, I go out of my way to avoid those types of comments or see who has said what.

You don't perceive comments about confusion over gender as "negative". I don't think they're negative either, because it often comes from people who in the next breath say something along the lines of "I really liked this game", but I do find it frustrating and I hate when being trans is viewed as "confusing" or especially unusual.

edit: And can we at least try to remember emmych has publicly said they are not a woman and do not use "she"? They've mentioned this in the past and SnowOwl I know you, specifically, show up often enough to have seen this at least once. They deserve that much respect, and if anyone sincerely didn't know here's another mention.