RACE AND GENDER IN GAMES

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InfectionFiles
the world ends in whatever my makerscore currently is
4368
Boom! Ima tank!
Ratty524
The 524 is for 524 Stone Crabs
13391
author=SnowOwl
author=mawk
author=PentagonBuddy
edit: And can we at least try to remember emmych has publicly said they are not a woman and do not use "she"? They've mentioned this in the past and SnowOwl I know you, specifically, show up often enough to have seen this at least once. They deserve that much respect, and if anyone sincerely didn't know here's another mention.
I just went with what the avatar seemed to be, which was a woman. I don't come into contact with emmych apart from these threads at all.


I assumed you were some odd, off-color Owl with some serious scoliosis going on just by your avatar.


Okay seriously, what are you even arguing about anymore?
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
25619
My avatar is accurate too. I'm a former starship captain cum spokesman for a travel website.
Some vagrant thoughts on this. Sorry if I'm ruining the thread now that is all shit and giggles, though. xD

Starting from a few pages ago... The way I see it, most people do not have a problem with representing minorities. They understand this is important to some people. They want to do well by them. But they also want the freedom to write their stories/characters in an organic way. In way that feels true to them. And different people will approach this in different ways.

However it seems that not even their best efforts or intentions are ever good enough... If the immediate reaction towards someone making blank slate type characters so everyone feels free to fill them in as they wish (which is very valid), is to go "Erasure!" "Defaultism!" and all that jazz, then is no wonder why people is "scared" to approach these subjects.

But you know? Threads like these are the perfect place to express ideas like that, right? After all this should be a place for everyone to learn about what other points of view exist out there. It's not called the "market of ideas" for nothing. You browse, you make your pick, you take with you... But the problem is people don't always keep those ideas to themselves.

Moving on onto more recent posts... People like you and I may not agree on much. But believe me when I say that I'm sorry if people have brought shit to your game. HOWEVER. I invite you to think if you have ever done the same to others. Ever called a game garbage? Ever told someone to "grow up"? Because guess what? That's rude too. That's uncalled for too. And I see it all the time, in comments, in reviews... So, some consistency would work wonders towards a better mutual understanding.

And I know, I know. something something false equivalence, something something punching up... But, yeah. No. I know you fancy yourselves as the only ones who can see through the deception and all that, but the truth is that you don't. You don't speak for everyone. So you don't get to define what things like "basic human decency" are; Yo don't get to decide what is or is not an "appropriate" design choice; And specially you don't get to tell others to think as you do in order to "better" themselves. You just don't.

Now, we've been at this for like 3+ years. Has it been worth it? Isn't it time to start looking past the rhetoric and start to working together? Like I said at the beginning, most people do not have a problem with minorities, But you have to be willing to meet them half-way in how to go about it, if we want to start moving forwards. Please, tell me that's what everyone wants.
author=Ratty524
author=SnowOwl
author=mawk
author=PentagonBuddy
edit: And can we at least try to remember emmych has publicly said they are not a woman and do not use "she"? They've mentioned this in the past and SnowOwl I know you, specifically, show up often enough to have seen this at least once. They deserve that much respect, and if anyone sincerely didn't know here's another mention.
I just went with what the avatar seemed to be, which was a woman. I don't come into contact with emmych apart from these threads at all.
I assumed you were some odd, off-color Owl with some serious scoliosis going on just by your avatar.


Okay seriously, what are you even arguing about anymore?

who knows what any of us were arguing about (me included)? I feel most posts the last 3-5 pages were extraneously antagonizing opposing opinions and turned a civil meaningful discussion into a extraneously digressing,vapid semantics & hearsay war.

Also, I am literally 2 Japanese high schoolers endlessly trying to fix a robot. just a heads up.
Now, we've been at this for like 3+ years. Has it been worth it? Isn't it time to start looking past the rhetoric and start to working together? Like I said at the beginning, most people do not have a problem with minorities, But you have to be willing to meet them half-way in how to go about it, if we want to start moving forwards. Please, tell me that's what everyone wants.

please don't equivocate a nuanced issue into some archetypal blood feud in which you cast yourself as a tearful morally-enlightened bystander yearning for an end to what you're only willing to contextualize as 'the hate' + an unconditional return to the status quo which has always been, to you, the perfect solution

tia

e: to translate, 'please don't insult people by pretending to offer an olive branch when your understanding of the situation is completely imaginary + you really just don't want to hear people talk about things that don't affect you anymore'

I'd encourage you to listen a bit more to what people are saying and doing, and how they're hurting, without leaping right into the 'I Must Broker Peace Between These Misguided Warriors' zone.
Hilarious, gais. I'm sure nobody would ever assume a person with a name like emmych and a avatar of a woman is in fact a woman. I'm interested now, since I'm supposed to call them "they", what exactly are they then?
User was warned for this post
Yellow Magic
Could I BE any more Chandler Bing from Friends (TM)?
3065
I'm definitely a mysterious SHSL gambler with anger management issues
Does it matter? Don't be an asshole over people's gender. We are an all-inclusive site who will welcome anyone as long as they like games and don't insult other members. If they have a preferred pronoun, fucking use it instead of acting like a twit, writing it off as 'hilarious' and demanding to know what they are.

Emmych, for future reference, prefers 'they'. Use it and don't be a douche about it, ffs.
author=Liberty
Does it matter? Don't be an asshole over people's gender. We are an all-inclusive site who will welcome anyone as long as they like games and don't insult other members. If they have a preferred pronoun, fucking use it instead of acting like a twit, writing it off as 'hilarious' and demanding to know what they are.

Emmych, for future reference, prefers 'they'. Use it and don't be a douche about it, ffs.

What's hilarious is the full page of sarcasm.
If so, your sense of humor makes you look just as bad.
It's something many people genuinly aren't willing to accept. (not to mention you still haven't said that you'll just use the wished pronoun in the future.. nobody cares about the whys)
It seemed pretty important what they are supposed to be a couple of pages ago but I guess that's only in certain circumstances.
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18722
SnowOwl if you're going to demand people explain their gender to you to try to get under their skin you can get off these forums. That isn't something I'm prepared to tolerate.
You assume those kinds of things even though not a single post I made have been hostile. Except the one calling someone out on a lie, which is apparently a big no-no in these kinds of discussions. Call it nitpicking or whatever you want, but the majority of the post was untrue. Maybe it didn't matter much, but I found it annoying, at least. Letting feelings, not truth, be the guide seems the norm. Don't bother trying to pick apart this post, I'll be a good boy and let you continue your thread in peace.
Ratty524
The 524 is for 524 Stone Crabs
13391
author=SnowOwl
You assume those kinds of things even though not a single post I made have been hostile. Except the one calling someone out on a lie, which is apparently a big no-no in these kinds of discussions. Call it nitpicking or whatever you want, but the majority of the post was untrue. Maybe it didn't matter much, but I found it annoying, at least. Letting feelings, not truth, be the guide seems the norm. Don't bother trying to pick apart this post, I'll be a good boy and let you continue your thread in peace.
First of all, emmych never lied. If you weren't lazy enough in your little hunt, the questionable posts regarding Luxaren Allure were right
there.

Second, really? You think disrespecting emmych's sexuality (by openly refusing to acknowledge them as "they," which is actually how many people in the trans community prefer to identify themselves), making false accusations (which I just proved are untrue in this post, and trust me, I've seen these discussions take place as I'm subscribed to the game), and making generalizations about people based on nothing were not hostile?

Okay, sure. Maybe they weren't, if I were to play devil's advocate, but you sure as hell invited it. I'd really do a better self-evaluation as to what you've contributed to this topic if I were you, but I'm glad you are taking a break from this thread.

Ironically, SnowOwl, your games transcend race and gender; Particularly, Rust and Blood comes to mind. And honestly, most of the sarcasm was probably used for an easy avatar joke rather a genuine dig at you. Honestly, the digression and excess of pathos was getting on my nerves too SnowOwl, but you humored it instead asserting everyone to get back on the topic at hand, your allegedly hostile tone notwithstanding. Sorry you got ganged up on.

Ahem.thread Rerail Commencing:
As a heterosexual black man(I'm prefacing this for the sake of perspective & clarity) I don't really feel particularly offended, or affected by the current depiction or under-representation(?) of minorities in games. I don't think the game developers should be forced to appease me just because I am a minority in my country(USA).I definitely think it is a bit of a shame LGBTQ+ gets very under-representated, though I don't think it's because game developers want to do so.Firstly, the gaming industry is mostly made up of heterosexual Caucasian males, so naturally they are reluctant to write characters that they can't easily pull from their own characteristics as a base in fears of doing so incorrectly. I also deduce they are further scared out of doing it due to negative backlash; because, in a worst case scenario, the entire situation is a chain of catch 22s :

put in extra effort to have more minority characters: "you did it wrong you racist/homophobe/*insert controversial title here* OR "what about the OTHER minorites, how inconsiderate!"

put in typical effort: "where are the minorities? you white supremacists" or "you put in no extra effort to put in more minority characters, how inconsiderate!"

So they go they latter, safe route: mostly Caucasian characters with a small batch of racial minorities and like 1 homosexual character. Fair enough I think, given the omega shitstorm trainwreck they could potentially face from the internet.

Obviously, not everyone will react like that, but the small vocal group of self-projecting cynics & social justiciers certainly will, and will do everything in their power to give the things they don't like or understand bad press and negative buzz via misinforming mass media outlets with some sensational headline fuel. Case in point: somes Games makes a men the sexists!....

except that they don't

All in all, not to even say there's an enemy, but I think we need to tell our vocal counterparts that their train of thought put game writers and developers in between a rock and a hard place redarding minorities; and that our disagreement is not with intent to antagonize them. call me a pussy or sycophant whatever for that second part, but honestly, discussion COMPLETELY devoid of considering interpersonal respect is for formal and/or organized debates with clearly defined rules, etiquette, and guidelines, not for casual argument with nothing of the sort(this thread). finally here's my reactions to my proposed scenarios:

put in extra effort to have more minority characters: Super Awesome!


put in typical effort: Awesome! Though, more minorities in this literally fantastic microcosm of the real world would be super awesome.


And some random improbable ideas and that could help if somehow achieved:
  • Giving game writers more time to write and research stories
  • Not addressing this like a dire problem (there are worse things going on.)
  • reaching out to game writers to suggest (not demand) more minority representation
  • If you are part of a minority,group with up with minority members, and collectively offer your perspective to game writers so their minority depictions can be more accurate
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
25619
The big thing is, people write what they know. Then people complain about underrepresentation. So, in response, people write what they don't know. Then people complain about misrepresentation. So, in response, people research what they don't know so that they can know what they're writing. Then people complain that you can't really know what something's like unless you've lived it. If proper representation is so necessary, why is it so important that people who know nothing about it be the ones that provide that representation?
iddalai
RPG Maker 2k/2k3 for life, baby!!
2146
author=pianotm
The big thing is, people write what they know. Then people complain about underrepresentation. So, in response, people write what they don't know. Then people complain about misrepresentation. So, in response, people research what they don't know so that they can know what they're writing. Then people complain that you can't really know what something's like unless you've lived it. If proper representation is so necessary, why is it so important that people who know nothing about it be the ones that provide that representation?


I agree!

It's what I've been saying for some time now.
In order to have more diversified games we need to break the barriers that prevent diverse people from making games, since people usually create stuff about what they know about.

I think that's one of the reasons why Luxaren Allure and Free Spirits are so high regarded, because the people behind these games knew what they were creating better than anyone else.
author=pianotm
snip
exactly! this is quintessence of the dilemma I proposed the game developers have. funnily enough, they are often told they don't know by people who also don't know. And even more funnily enough, the people who also don't know speak for people they think care deeply about it... when in reality the people they speaking for don't care either way. If game developers WANT to represent minorities, that's great. But they are by no means obligated to do so for me, or any other minority.

EDIT:
author=iddalai
In order to have more diversified games we need to break the barriers that prevent diverse people from making games, since people usually create stuff about what they know about.
This also rings quite true.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
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author=SnowOwl
Except the one calling someone out on a lie

I'm actually a topless cat girl with some explosive knockers stuck in a constant state of blush.


because my avatar says so





what

EDIT: Upon closer inspection, the "lie" you claimed was made was refuted with solid evidence that you still claim is false all the while with your fingers in your ears shouting out anyone who says otherwise; an action you even claimed emmych of. Truly the definition of transference.