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RACE AND GENDER IN GAMES
Posts
Solitayre
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Closeauthor=LockeZ
In a traditional medieval high fantasy RPG you're making an entire world from scratch so it seems much easier to just make a world where concepts such as different types of sexuality or different races don't exist in the first place.
Well, I definitely don't think this is the right approach.
I don't personally have a totally huge amount to say besides "more diversity please", at least not on a public forum. Since you're asking for the breakdown, and mine is guaranteed to be different than most people's, I'm gonna give you the general statistics of how I currently plan things (since I haven't finished a game in quite some time):
I honestly usually go for a 50/50 split of Human to Furry (or Alien, depending on setting) characters, first of all. Then I break down those into 25/25 male/female. There is something very numerically satisfying to me as a designer to assure that there are equal or near equal splits.
Whenever I make a character template for Humans I always do 4 or 5 different skin tones on it, so I can more easily diversify NPCs and leads as I please. The same goes for Furry templates- 4 or 5 different fur colours is a must.
To be completely honest, I haven't touched really any LGBT issues or representation in my work. I feel that while I'd like to someday, at the moment I'm still learning the ins and outs of writing good characters and I'm trying to focus more on my own experiences as a Furry, writing those sort of Human + Non-Huan relationships and character dynamics. Call it a lazy excuse I guess, cause it really is, but I honestly wouldn't know where to start with properly representing any LGBT characters or issues in my work- I can barely properly represent my own most times. I feel that this isn't a humongous issue, because really, the number of LGBT developers is constantly growing, and they'll do a much better job with it than I ever would. Meanwhile, I still think I'm the only person making Furry/Xenophile related stuff, so.
I honestly usually go for a 50/50 split of Human to Furry (or Alien, depending on setting) characters, first of all. Then I break down those into 25/25 male/female. There is something very numerically satisfying to me as a designer to assure that there are equal or near equal splits.
Whenever I make a character template for Humans I always do 4 or 5 different skin tones on it, so I can more easily diversify NPCs and leads as I please. The same goes for Furry templates- 4 or 5 different fur colours is a must.
To be completely honest, I haven't touched really any LGBT issues or representation in my work. I feel that while I'd like to someday, at the moment I'm still learning the ins and outs of writing good characters and I'm trying to focus more on my own experiences as a Furry, writing those sort of Human + Non-Huan relationships and character dynamics. Call it a lazy excuse I guess, cause it really is, but I honestly wouldn't know where to start with properly representing any LGBT characters or issues in my work- I can barely properly represent my own most times. I feel that this isn't a humongous issue, because really, the number of LGBT developers is constantly growing, and they'll do a much better job with it than I ever would. Meanwhile, I still think I'm the only person making Furry/Xenophile related stuff, so.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=Solitayre
This is an amateur community even by indie standards and I don't really feel like a 16 year old kid making a game in their spare time should feel any obligation or compulsion to address social issues in their projects, but I do think it's cool when developers go the extra mile to be inclusive, and think it's something to be encouraged.
Why would it be "addressing social issues" to make a protag black/brown, female, or some flavor of LGBT?
OK LockeZ I am jumping straight down your throat here and it's not personal or anything, I'm just REALLY tired of seeing these apologetics for a complete lack of variety:
author=LockeZ
Does green hair count as "colored?" What about half-demon?
No it fucking doesn't and you fucking know it. Why are you counting made up shit as equal to real life people who might want to also be represented?
If you write characters who are similar to yourself, they'll be far more believable.
Yeah I can tell you this is not true at all. If you're shit at writing characters, you're gonna be shit at writing characters even if you just straight up self insert.
There is literally no reason other than plain not caring to improve to avoid adding any variety to characters. "People are 16 and dumb" is probably the worst excuse: we don't let shittily crafted games slide in this commmunity just because someone is an amateur that doesn't know what they're doing. Why should we let anything else about the gam mak slide?
I mean, no, there's no RULE that says your games need to conform to some quota, because that would be super dumb. But if you're going with "But I don't wanna!" then that's just as worthy of being called out as lazy as anything else.
ETA: So this isn't just me bein mad about video games, here's my breakdown:
Remnants of Isolation:
Melchior- Ambiguously brown
Celesta- Ladytype also structurally modeled on black ethnicity
Also various unseen characters who are generally assumed to be brown.
Virtual Grappi:
Uh... the only humanoid in that is a zomzom of undetermined race, sex, or gender. :V
I'm not gonna cover the crap I'm working on that doesn't have any proof of concept yet, but I'll just say that over time "cute Black girl" has turned into my default character choice. (Granted, girl has always been my default choice because I am super identified with my gender and I grew up with NES where that was usually not available.)
If you can have the whole "evil half-demon" prejudice, you could in fact make some interesting parallels. So I dunno about the view that that doesn't by default. There's a reason TvTropes has "fantastic racism".
author=Solitayreauthor=LockeZWell, I definitely don't think this is the right approach.
In a traditional medieval high fantasy RPG you're making an entire world from scratch so it seems much easier to just make a world where concepts such as different types of sexuality or different races don't exist in the first place.
I like the idea that you can have a high fantasy RPG where people of varying types of races, sexualities, backgrounds, etc. exist together and nobody says a thing about it, because that's not what the game is about (the game is about killing the evil King Dragon! Or whatever.) You definitely don't have to make a game about someone simply to justify including them. Actually, I'd say this is pretty important - how tiring is it to see characters defined by one trait?
However, if you just make a fantasy game where everyone is white, you're not ignoring race, you're just picking one out of ease, y'know?
LightningLord2
230
I do agree that you can make a pertinent point with fantasy race instead of black vs white. Gonna take Suikoden II as an example. The Suikoden series as a whole is pretty white but there are darker shades threaded through and a lot of different cultures. For example Suikoden III has a Knightdom with predominantly white, next to the Grasslands with darker skinned people and Harmonia which has classes built on blood and physical aspects (it's a lot more complicated than that, but it's a large part of the class make-up.) There's also a lizard-person clan, duck-person clan, woman-only clan and mantor riders. And kobolds. And elves. And a dwarf. And a winger.
Suikoden II uses Two River city to show racial tensions between the Wingers, the Kobolds and the human races, and it is done very well. In fact, part of the strategy for two battles is making the enemy believe that the humans and kobolds have had a falling out, then using that to create a diversion that allows your side to win the day.
Indeed, with the amount of different countries and cultures in the Suikoden world there's a lot of clash between them, which is a driving force for several of the games. It is interesting to note, though, that there are darker skinned people and they are presented as 'just being there', as though there is no difference between black and white. Indeed, the clash between the Karayan clan of the Grasslands with the Knightdom have nothing to do with colour and more to do with border disputes. The insults that occur during the more tense parts of the game have more to do with the cultural differences and nothing to do with colour, and yet the racial tension is still shown perfectly well - in both II and III.
So it is possible to have colour not be a thing and allow fantasy racism to take it's place, and it can be done very well but still make the exact same point. Now, bear in mind that the characters you play as in II and III have those racial tensities applied to them - in some cases. Riou, Jowy and Nanami come from Highland in II, and they face distrust initially. They do eventually gain trust, though, and work through that initial period of race tense. In contrast is Luca Blight whose whole motive is racially spurred - he hates all of the City States and wants every one in them to die. No matter what race you are.
III has three lead characters, one from each area of the game. White-haired and white-skinned Chris, the Silver Maiden and leader of the Knights. Blonde/black-haired and darkly tanned Hugo, son of the Karaya clan chief. Dark haired, pale tanned Geddoe, a mercenary working on behalf of Harmonia. Of them, Geddoe is the most racially open. He just don't give a fuck. Hugo starts out as the most racist, eventually learning over time that different doesn't mean bad. Chris is just doing her job, until it gets personal, but even then it's not about race, but deeds.
And yet race is a very real issue in the game, the blockade that slowly gets removed over the course through learning more about each other and accepting that there are differences but also similarities. More than one NPC talks about that, too.
So yeah. Fantasy racism. It can bee a good stand-in. Also, go play the Suikoden series. There's kick-ass ladies, kick-ass men, peeps from many different races and great stories. Fun!
Suikoden II uses Two River city to show racial tensions between the Wingers, the Kobolds and the human races, and it is done very well. In fact, part of the strategy for two battles is making the enemy believe that the humans and kobolds have had a falling out, then using that to create a diversion that allows your side to win the day.
Indeed, with the amount of different countries and cultures in the Suikoden world there's a lot of clash between them, which is a driving force for several of the games. It is interesting to note, though, that there are darker skinned people and they are presented as 'just being there', as though there is no difference between black and white. Indeed, the clash between the Karayan clan of the Grasslands with the Knightdom have nothing to do with colour and more to do with border disputes. The insults that occur during the more tense parts of the game have more to do with the cultural differences and nothing to do with colour, and yet the racial tension is still shown perfectly well - in both II and III.
So it is possible to have colour not be a thing and allow fantasy racism to take it's place, and it can be done very well but still make the exact same point. Now, bear in mind that the characters you play as in II and III have those racial tensities applied to them - in some cases. Riou, Jowy and Nanami come from Highland in II, and they face distrust initially. They do eventually gain trust, though, and work through that initial period of race tense. In contrast is Luca Blight whose whole motive is racially spurred - he hates all of the City States and wants every one in them to die. No matter what race you are.
III has three lead characters, one from each area of the game. White-haired and white-skinned Chris, the Silver Maiden and leader of the Knights. Blonde/black-haired and darkly tanned Hugo, son of the Karaya clan chief. Dark haired, pale tanned Geddoe, a mercenary working on behalf of Harmonia. Of them, Geddoe is the most racially open. He just don't give a fuck. Hugo starts out as the most racist, eventually learning over time that different doesn't mean bad. Chris is just doing her job, until it gets personal, but even then it's not about race, but deeds.
And yet race is a very real issue in the game, the blockade that slowly gets removed over the course through learning more about each other and accepting that there are differences but also similarities. More than one NPC talks about that, too.
So yeah. Fantasy racism. It can bee a good stand-in. Also, go play the Suikoden series. There's kick-ass ladies, kick-ass men, peeps from many different races and great stories. Fun!
author=Sooz
Why would it be "addressing social issues" to make a protag black/brown, female, or some flavor of LGBT?
It wouldn't be, really, but if a 16 year old isn't doing it, that's not a fight I feel would be productive or useful.
The one thing I see with a lot of fantasy races & race conflict is most of them are limited to a couple simplistic traits. Elves are haughty, mysterious, seclusive. Dwarves are hardworking, gruff, and alcoholics. Orcs are violent and easily angered. Games like these typically create all characters of a certain race with most of these traits. There's usually not much depth to it.
(I've never played Suikoden, but it sounds like a good counter-example, maybe? I'm thinking LotR, D&D, etc.)
(I've never played Suikoden, but it sounds like a good counter-example, maybe? I'm thinking LotR, D&D, etc.)
author=slash
The one thing I see with a lot of fantasy races & race conflict is most of them are limited to a couple simplistic traits. Elves are haughty, mysterious, seclusive. Dwarves are hardworking, gruff, and alcoholics. Orcs are violent and easily angered. Games like these typically create all characters of a certain race with most of these traits. There's usually not much depth to it.
(I've never played Suikoden, but it sounds like a good counter-example, maybe? I'm thinking LotR, D&D, etc.)
And 'humans' usually boils down to be just white people. Just look at Lord of the Rings.
LightningLord2
230
The only example I found for a non-stereotypical fantasy race member would be in the Elder Scrolls 5 - Skyrim. It was a Nord who was not only a refined trader, he was also a member of the Thalmor.
Yeah, Suikoden is great in that, while the first game did do that kind of thing, the rest of the series expands on those ideas. We see kind elves and selfless dwarves. Cowards and heroes of all creeds.
Examples:
Wingers are presented through non-winger NPCs as cowardly and thieving squatters who take up residence in the slums of Two River city. They're actually shown to be intelligent and brave, the ones who actually start the ball rolling on saving the city from an attack. They are both tricky and brave, thieves and squatters and fighters and intelligent.
The general of the Muse army in II is a blind black man, Hauser. His race is never mentioned at all. He is just presented as the general for the army, no questions asked.
Below are a lot of images and me going on a Suikoden love fest. You've been warned.
I also love how women are presented in the series. A lot of women have and hold power in one way or another. They also, when killed, get the Noble death that is usually reserved for male roles in stories. The valiant hero, dying to protect someone weaker. You don't see women who die getting that death often - usually they're used as a motivator for the male lead, and while that is a little of the case when it comes to Odessa, she is also held as a standard for the male lead to live up to because of how amazing a leader she was. Indeed, it's not til the end that some of her companions finally admit that you're a good leader and that she would have been proud of your work.
And then you have the villain women who are more than just lovely ladies - Windy is a lovely lady, yes, and she uses it to gain control over the Emperor, but she is also powerful in her own right, having half of the True Gate Rune in her control. There are many, many amazing women in the series, and hey, not all of them are skimpified, either!
Let's take a look at some of them, shall we?
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s4-jeane.jpg
Okay, I know what you're thinking - "WHERE ARE HER CLOTHES LIBERTY!?" Yeah, she ain't got much on, but that's Jeane for you. You know what? She doesn't care what you think about her clothes. She's sexy and she owns it. And she uses it for her own benefit. Men staring? Let's make them do work for you? Pesky detective trying to get answers about your mysterious ways out of you? Let's seduce him and make him forget all the questions he was going to ask. Tenkai star ride up and ask you to join his group as a Rune Mistress? Let's do that. Oh, and she also casts super powerful magic. Oh, and she's well over 100 years old. Jeane is one of the women in the game who do wear revealing outfits, and hell, they get skimpier over time, but then that's the kind of character Jeane is - she is sexy and she knows it so she flaunts it and uses it to her advantage. In any other game I would be all ugh about that, but in a game where most other female characters are treated well and with respect, I consider it also a kind of respect in saying 'there is nothing wrong with being sexy'.
So, I just had to get that out of the way because I know someone who's played the games would go BUT WHAT ABOUT JEANE!? That about Jeane. That.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s3-aila.jpg
Aila. Karayan clan archer. Kick-ass girl who joins up with Harmonians, learns to unhate the Zexens - who she has a very legitimate reason for hating - and loves green soda tea. I believe she's also the first character in the series who gets a costume change in the same game she's shown in. You may also notice her dark skin and awesome hair. Also, the cultural clothes. Get used to seeing awesome clothes. Suikoden steals from everywhere.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s3-chris.jpg
Chris Lightfellow. Just... look at that no-boobage armour right there. That's when you know it's a classy game. Oh, but what about when she's out of her armour?
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s3-chris2.jpg
Chris motherfucking Lightfellow, folks. Captain of the Knights of Zexen, hailed by her countrymen as a hero and leader, respected by her enemies as a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield. She's a physical beast.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s3-elaine.jpg
Elaine. She's sexy and she knows it and she ain't against showing it, but she's got a job to do as a part of Duke's mercenary unit, so she dresses in clothes that are easy to move in. She also hits decently hard and is pretty fast.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s3-hortezvii.jpg
Hello Hortez. Have you found your way to my castle yet? It's obvious what race and culture he was modelled on.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s3-hallec.jpg
Hellec. The axes might give it away but he's a powerhouse and comes from the deadly lands to the north of Zexen where only small nomadic tribes can survive.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s3-lucia.jpg
Lucia, leader of the Karayan clan. She's kick-ass and uses a whip to deal damage, even though a whip is not a weapon. She uses it very effectively, though, so maybe in the right hands a whip can be a weapon. She's also very respected by her people and people of the other Grassland clans and is at times something of a default leader amongst them. She's also very much a mother as well as the chief of her clan, and acts like both when the need arises.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s2-lucia.gif
She was also in II as the leader of a unit of Grasslander troops who aided Highland. Yes, she was an enemy. She also snuck into your castle and almost assassinated you in your sleep, then later managed to escape from the cell she'd been locked in. Did I mention she's a badass?
Oh, yeah, and she was also pregnant when all of this went down... about 4-6 months.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s3-yumi.jpg
Yumi, a fighter from the Alma Kinan clan - the clan of only women. I just like her dress and boots a lot. ^.^ Also, she has shorts under that dress. Practical for an archer.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s2-yoshino.gif
Yoshino. Devoted wife, washer of clothes, kicker of asses. She joins you in battle when in the party, wielding her naginata, but out of it she can be seen washing cloths and taking care of the kids. She seems meek but she straight up went against her husband's wish for her not to get involved in the war, deciding that she would be there by his side if he died in battle. Even an otherwise meek and gentle lady can be a powerful woman.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s2-anabelle.gif
Annebell, mayor of Muse and one of the leaders of the City State of Jowston (Six leaders, two are women.) She's the one who saw the threat that Luca Blight posed and dove straight into action, gathering mercenaries to bolster the Muse army. Hauser works as her general and it's more a partnership (platonic only) than him serving under her. She doesn't take shit from others, often straight up demands people to cut to the chase and is very no-nonsense. When an assassin tried to kill her she tricked him into dropping his guard, then smashed a glass in his face. ^.^
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s2-bob.gif
A powerhouse who will not join you until you have 80 others already in your party. Loving that hair.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s2-huan.gif
A very gentle, tolerant man who acts as the doctor for Suikoden II. Check out dem clothes. Also, love him to bits.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s2-lorelai.gif
Badass scythe-wielder (she got it from a headsman in the first game) who is a seeker of the lost race of the Sindar. She doesn't pay attention to what others tell her - she will seek and she will find. She's pretty boss.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s2-nanami.gif
Physical. Beast. Give her a Fury Rune and Double Beat Rune and watch the bodies hit the floor. She got captured, broke out and tried to save her brother and his best friend from a hanging... all by herself. Mind you, she ripped that prison to bits. She can't cook for a dime but she loves her younger brother to bits and will tear you a new asshole if you try to hurt him. She also throws herself in the way of danger to protect him, acting as his personal bodyguard. Oh, and she's very anti-war. She'll fight, but she won't like it. I love Nanami so much. ;^;
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s5-arshtat.jpg
Dat costume design, yo. This here be THE QUEEN of Falena - a country where the Prince is married off for alliances and only the women of the family rule. Yes, you heard that. Falena is a Queendom. And this lovely lady is your mother~<3
She loves her children and country so much that she is literally driven mad trying to protect them from inside forces trying to take the throne (by marrying your little sister, the pervs!) She's strong, powerful and an incredible character. She also destroyed a whole town just by thinking about it. Yeah.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s5-galleon-concept.jpg
I just want to point out that Suikoden isn't agist either. You will have kids join your party, and teens and old people - male or female. Galleon looks old because he is old. And check out that armour detail. Hnnnng.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s5-hazuki.jpg
I really love the outfits in this series. So does Hazuki.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s5-lelei.jpg
Can you say confirmed lesbian lover?
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s5-lucretia-merces.jpg
I bet you can!
These two lovely ladies are very much lesbian lovers. Lelei, the top lady, is bodyguard to Lucretia, the lovely Karayan strategist with the dyed hair. Lelei will destroy anyone who goes near her lovely mistress and protect her with her dying breath. She's incredibly loyal and enthusiastic.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s5-nikea.jpg
Another powerhouse - this one loves food and will eat you out of house and home, but hey, Nikea will at least punch things very, very enthusiastically and very, very well. ^.^
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s5-sagiri.jpg
Doesn't look like much, does she? Kinda sweet, that smile? Wrong on all accounts. Sagiri smiles because she can't not. She was raised as a child assassin and is psychologically broken - they forced her to smile so that she appeared innocent to her targets. After all, who would expect a cute little girl smiling to be the one to take your life? Yeah. Guess who can never not smile since then? :<
Is she strong? Yes. But she hates killing and if you take her out to kill human enemies you're a fucking monster.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s5-zunda.jpg
Female Dwarf? Check. She ain't dealing with your shit, either. In fact, she's very level headed and a force to be reckoned with.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s4-rachel.jpg
Skin? What skin?
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s4-selma.jpg
Tribal elf? Tribal elf chief!
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s4-elenor.jpg
Old lady? Nah, well yeah but meet your drunkard, bitter, angry Strategist.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s4-flare.jpg
Princess?! Kick-ass princess, yes!
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s4-kika.jpg
Buccaneer? No. Pirate Queen. Fuck yeah! Kika is the best thing about Suikoden IV.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s4-mitsuba.jpg
Had to include Mitsuba, my favourite character from IV. Also known as enemy-wrecker. Broadsword, anyone?~
Sorry but I got tired. >.<;
Examples:
Wingers are presented through non-winger NPCs as cowardly and thieving squatters who take up residence in the slums of Two River city. They're actually shown to be intelligent and brave, the ones who actually start the ball rolling on saving the city from an attack. They are both tricky and brave, thieves and squatters and fighters and intelligent.
The general of the Muse army in II is a blind black man, Hauser. His race is never mentioned at all. He is just presented as the general for the army, no questions asked.
Below are a lot of images and me going on a Suikoden love fest. You've been warned.
I also love how women are presented in the series. A lot of women have and hold power in one way or another. They also, when killed, get the Noble death that is usually reserved for male roles in stories. The valiant hero, dying to protect someone weaker. You don't see women who die getting that death often - usually they're used as a motivator for the male lead, and while that is a little of the case when it comes to Odessa, she is also held as a standard for the male lead to live up to because of how amazing a leader she was. Indeed, it's not til the end that some of her companions finally admit that you're a good leader and that she would have been proud of your work.
And then you have the villain women who are more than just lovely ladies - Windy is a lovely lady, yes, and she uses it to gain control over the Emperor, but she is also powerful in her own right, having half of the True Gate Rune in her control. There are many, many amazing women in the series, and hey, not all of them are skimpified, either!
Let's take a look at some of them, shall we?
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s4-jeane.jpg
Okay, I know what you're thinking - "WHERE ARE HER CLOTHES LIBERTY!?" Yeah, she ain't got much on, but that's Jeane for you. You know what? She doesn't care what you think about her clothes. She's sexy and she owns it. And she uses it for her own benefit. Men staring? Let's make them do work for you? Pesky detective trying to get answers about your mysterious ways out of you? Let's seduce him and make him forget all the questions he was going to ask. Tenkai star ride up and ask you to join his group as a Rune Mistress? Let's do that. Oh, and she also casts super powerful magic. Oh, and she's well over 100 years old. Jeane is one of the women in the game who do wear revealing outfits, and hell, they get skimpier over time, but then that's the kind of character Jeane is - she is sexy and she knows it so she flaunts it and uses it to her advantage. In any other game I would be all ugh about that, but in a game where most other female characters are treated well and with respect, I consider it also a kind of respect in saying 'there is nothing wrong with being sexy'.
So, I just had to get that out of the way because I know someone who's played the games would go BUT WHAT ABOUT JEANE!? That about Jeane. That.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s3-aila.jpg
Aila. Karayan clan archer. Kick-ass girl who joins up with Harmonians, learns to unhate the Zexens - who she has a very legitimate reason for hating - and loves green soda tea. I believe she's also the first character in the series who gets a costume change in the same game she's shown in. You may also notice her dark skin and awesome hair. Also, the cultural clothes. Get used to seeing awesome clothes. Suikoden steals from everywhere.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s3-chris.jpg
Chris Lightfellow. Just... look at that no-boobage armour right there. That's when you know it's a classy game. Oh, but what about when she's out of her armour?
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s3-chris2.jpg
Chris motherfucking Lightfellow, folks. Captain of the Knights of Zexen, hailed by her countrymen as a hero and leader, respected by her enemies as a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield. She's a physical beast.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s3-elaine.jpg
Elaine. She's sexy and she knows it and she ain't against showing it, but she's got a job to do as a part of Duke's mercenary unit, so she dresses in clothes that are easy to move in. She also hits decently hard and is pretty fast.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s3-hortezvii.jpg
Hello Hortez. Have you found your way to my castle yet? It's obvious what race and culture he was modelled on.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s3-hallec.jpg
Hellec. The axes might give it away but he's a powerhouse and comes from the deadly lands to the north of Zexen where only small nomadic tribes can survive.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s3-lucia.jpg
Lucia, leader of the Karayan clan. She's kick-ass and uses a whip to deal damage, even though a whip is not a weapon. She uses it very effectively, though, so maybe in the right hands a whip can be a weapon. She's also very respected by her people and people of the other Grassland clans and is at times something of a default leader amongst them. She's also very much a mother as well as the chief of her clan, and acts like both when the need arises.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s2-lucia.gif
She was also in II as the leader of a unit of Grasslander troops who aided Highland. Yes, she was an enemy. She also snuck into your castle and almost assassinated you in your sleep, then later managed to escape from the cell she'd been locked in. Did I mention she's a badass?
Oh, yeah, and she was also pregnant when all of this went down... about 4-6 months.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s3-yumi.jpg
Yumi, a fighter from the Alma Kinan clan - the clan of only women. I just like her dress and boots a lot. ^.^ Also, she has shorts under that dress. Practical for an archer.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s2-yoshino.gif
Yoshino. Devoted wife, washer of clothes, kicker of asses. She joins you in battle when in the party, wielding her naginata, but out of it she can be seen washing cloths and taking care of the kids. She seems meek but she straight up went against her husband's wish for her not to get involved in the war, deciding that she would be there by his side if he died in battle. Even an otherwise meek and gentle lady can be a powerful woman.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s2-anabelle.gif
Annebell, mayor of Muse and one of the leaders of the City State of Jowston (Six leaders, two are women.) She's the one who saw the threat that Luca Blight posed and dove straight into action, gathering mercenaries to bolster the Muse army. Hauser works as her general and it's more a partnership (platonic only) than him serving under her. She doesn't take shit from others, often straight up demands people to cut to the chase and is very no-nonsense. When an assassin tried to kill her she tricked him into dropping his guard, then smashed a glass in his face. ^.^
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s2-bob.gif
A powerhouse who will not join you until you have 80 others already in your party. Loving that hair.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s2-huan.gif
A very gentle, tolerant man who acts as the doctor for Suikoden II. Check out dem clothes. Also, love him to bits.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s2-lorelai.gif
Badass scythe-wielder (she got it from a headsman in the first game) who is a seeker of the lost race of the Sindar. She doesn't pay attention to what others tell her - she will seek and she will find. She's pretty boss.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/s2-nanami.gif
Physical. Beast. Give her a Fury Rune and Double Beat Rune and watch the bodies hit the floor. She got captured, broke out and tried to save her brother and his best friend from a hanging... all by herself. Mind you, she ripped that prison to bits. She can't cook for a dime but she loves her younger brother to bits and will tear you a new asshole if you try to hurt him. She also throws herself in the way of danger to protect him, acting as his personal bodyguard. Oh, and she's very anti-war. She'll fight, but she won't like it. I love Nanami so much. ;^;
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s5-arshtat.jpg
Dat costume design, yo. This here be THE QUEEN of Falena - a country where the Prince is married off for alliances and only the women of the family rule. Yes, you heard that. Falena is a Queendom. And this lovely lady is your mother~<3
She loves her children and country so much that she is literally driven mad trying to protect them from inside forces trying to take the throne (by marrying your little sister, the pervs!) She's strong, powerful and an incredible character. She also destroyed a whole town just by thinking about it. Yeah.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s5-galleon-concept.jpg
I just want to point out that Suikoden isn't agist either. You will have kids join your party, and teens and old people - male or female. Galleon looks old because he is old. And check out that armour detail. Hnnnng.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s5-hazuki.jpg
I really love the outfits in this series. So does Hazuki.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s5-lelei.jpg
Can you say confirmed lesbian lover?
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s5-lucretia-merces.jpg
I bet you can!
These two lovely ladies are very much lesbian lovers. Lelei, the top lady, is bodyguard to Lucretia, the lovely Karayan strategist with the dyed hair. Lelei will destroy anyone who goes near her lovely mistress and protect her with her dying breath. She's incredibly loyal and enthusiastic.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s5-nikea.jpg
Another powerhouse - this one loves food and will eat you out of house and home, but hey, Nikea will at least punch things very, very enthusiastically and very, very well. ^.^
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s5-sagiri.jpg
Doesn't look like much, does she? Kinda sweet, that smile? Wrong on all accounts. Sagiri smiles because she can't not. She was raised as a child assassin and is psychologically broken - they forced her to smile so that she appeared innocent to her targets. After all, who would expect a cute little girl smiling to be the one to take your life? Yeah. Guess who can never not smile since then? :<
Is she strong? Yes. But she hates killing and if you take her out to kill human enemies you're a fucking monster.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s5-zunda.jpg
Female Dwarf? Check. She ain't dealing with your shit, either. In fact, she's very level headed and a force to be reckoned with.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s4-rachel.jpg
Skin? What skin?
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s4-selma.jpg
Tribal elf? Tribal elf chief!
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s4-elenor.jpg
Old lady? Nah, well yeah but meet your drunkard, bitter, angry Strategist.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s4-flare.jpg
Princess?! Kick-ass princess, yes!
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s4-kika.jpg
Buccaneer? No. Pirate Queen. Fuck yeah! Kika is the best thing about Suikoden IV.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-08/art/s4-mitsuba.jpg
Had to include Mitsuba, my favourite character from IV. Also known as enemy-wrecker. Broadsword, anyone?~
Sorry but I got tired. >.<;
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=MotoKuchoma
And 'humans' usually boils down to be just white people. Just look at Lord of the Rings.
Well, there WERE brown people. Fighting for Sauron. :/
Tolkein's actually kind of a thorny- though interesting- subject WRT fantasy and race, since he ended up baking in a lot of stuff just on the basis of his culture and what inspired the whole exercise (being a super nerd about languages).
Dwarves, for example, are explicitly coded as Jews, right down to the hoarding gold. Er.
And then there's the (entirely unintended but super unfortunate) issues with the orcs and uruk-hai being described p. much as African people. Which, um, maps really unsettlingly well with a lot of harmful stereotypes of Black folks in general.
And this is the work that became the foundation of most Western fantasy worlds!
Stuff like this is why it's super important to at least give a little thought to one's inspirations and how they are products of their cultural milieus. Just as there's no good reason to keep up the arcade-inspired lives/continues quarter-eating system in home games, there's no good reason to just uncritically copy the settings that have gone before.
Tolkien's views on race actually evolved post-LotR. He created the orcs originally just to be a generically evil race of beings for the heroes to fight. But years later he realized he had made a mistake in doing this, and was very troubled by the implications of creating a race that had no capacity for good.
In other words, Tolkien himself realized too late the problems inherent in creating races defined by one characteristic, but the genre that sprung up around his work has generally stuck to that mold pretty religiously. Kind of sad when you think about it.
In other words, Tolkien himself realized too late the problems inherent in creating races defined by one characteristic, but the genre that sprung up around his work has generally stuck to that mold pretty religiously. Kind of sad when you think about it.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Sooz
OK LockeZ I am jumping straight down your throat here and it's not personal or anything, I'm just REALLY tired of seeing these apologetics for a complete lack of variety:author=LockeZNo it fucking doesn't and you fucking know it. Why are you counting made up shit as equal to real life people who might want to also be represented?
Does green hair count as "colored?" What about half-demon?
Wait, so is the goal representation or variety? Make up your mind because green hair and half-demons definitely provide variety, they just don't provide representation. Of course, no real world race is being represented in any high fantasy story anyway, but a fictional race can certainly be used as an allegory for surrogate representation, whether that fictional race is the people of Wutai, the Romulans, or half-demons.
What's really important with representation isn't the character's appearance or accent but the audience's ability to connect with them and imagine themselves in that character's place. Appearance and accent are just the cheapest ways to accomplish this without any writing skill or effort.
(I don't take it personally at all - I've certainly told enough people on this forum that I thought their design choices and decision-making processes were bad. I'm glad there are people here who care as much about debating how to best tell a story as I care about debating how to best design the gameplay.)
author=SoozWhat? You don't think "write what you know" is true at all? It's one of the most well-known and universal rules of good writing. I'm super interested to hear your detailed debunking of this rule of thumb, just because the idea that it might be wrong isn't something I've ever seriously considered.author=LockeZYeah I can tell you this is not true at all. If you're shit at writing characters, you're gonna be shit at writing characters even if you just straight up self insert.
If you write characters who are similar to yourself, they'll be far more believable.
Anyway my point is that you don't need variety within a single game unless your game is appealing to a mass audience. For smaller games, it works just as well to have variety across games instead. Two different people in the indie gaming community can each create a game: one game about black characters and another about white characters. One about males and another about females. One game about a heterosexual romance and another game about a homosexual romance. In some ways this is even better, since it means players can pick games that match their own interests, and pick games that feature characters representing their own groups. If every game were a melting pot, that wouldn't be possible.
Don't feel like you need to shoehorn things into your story when you have no knowledge of them or interest in them. Tell the story you want to tell. Other people can tell their own stories. Then there'll be all kinds of different stories for different people. Your one single independently created amateur story doesn't have to be marketed to every single person on earth.
author=LockeZ
Anyway my point is that you don't need variety within a single game unless your game is appealing to a mass audience. For smaller games, it works just as well to have variety across games instead. Two different people in the indie gaming community can each create a game: one game about black characters and another about white characters. One about males and another about females. One game about a heterosexual romance and another game about a homosexual romance. In some ways this is even better, since it means players can pick games that match their own interests, and pick games that feature characters representing their own groups. If every game were a melting pot, that wouldn't be possible.
Don't feel like you need to shoehorn things into your story when you have no knowledge of them or interest in them. Tell the story you want to tell. Other people can tell their own stories. Then there'll be all kinds of different stories for different people. Your one single independently created amateur story doesn't have to be marketed to every single person on earth.
I don't have a problem with people wanting to tell a specific story, but you were making the argument that you can make the world more simple and easier to understand by just pretending non-straight/white people don't exist. Surely I don't need to explain why many would find that to be an abhorrent viewpoint.
LightningLord2
230
author=LockeZauthor=SoozWait, so is the goal representation or variety? Make up your mind because green hair and half-demons definitely provide variety, they just don't provide representation. Of course, no real world race is being represented in any high fantasy story anyway, but a fictional race can certainly be used as an allegory for surrogate representation, whether that fictional race is the people of Wutai, the Romulans, or half-demons.
OK LockeZ I am jumping straight down your throat here and it's not personal or anything, I'm just REALLY tired of seeing these apologetics for a complete lack of variety:author=LockeZNo it fucking doesn't and you fucking know it. Why are you counting made up shit as equal to real life people who might want to also be represented?
Does green hair count as "colored?" What about half-demon?
What's really important with representation isn't the character's appearance or accent but the audience's ability to connect with them and imagine themselves in that character's place. Appearance and accent are just the cheapest ways to accomplish this without any writing skill or effort.
(I don't take it personally at all - I've certainly told enough people on this forum that I thought their design choices and decision-making processes were bad. I'm glad there are people here who care as much about debating how to best tell a story as I care about debating how to best design the gameplay.)
author=SoozWhat? You don't think "write what you know" is true at all? It's one of the most well-known and universal rules of good writing. I'm super interested to hear your detailed debunking of this rule of thumb, just because the idea that it might be wrong isn't something I've ever seriously considered.author=LockeZYeah I can tell you this is not true at all. If you're shit at writing characters, you're gonna be shit at writing characters even if you just straight up self insert.
If you write characters who are similar to yourself, they'll be far more believable.
Anyway my point is that you don't need variety within a single game unless your game is appealing to a mass audience. For smaller games, it works just as well to have variety across games instead. Two different people in the indie gaming community can each create a game: one game about black characters and another about white characters. One about males and another about females. One game about a heterosexual romance and another game about a homosexual romance. In some ways this is even better, since it means players can pick games that match their own interests, and pick games that feature characters representing their own groups. If every game were a melting pot, that wouldn't be possible.
Don't feel like you need to shoehorn things into your story when you have no knowledge of them or interest in them. Tell the story you want to tell. Other people can tell their own stories. Then there'll be all kinds of different stories for different people. Your one single independently created amateur story doesn't have to be marketed to every single person on earth.
Well, my topic was more about inquiring about how much people care for representation and what they do to achieve it, not necessarily asking them to do more of it (though I do like having some variety in characters). And I agree that you can leave some/most groups unrepresented to keep the game small, as well as with the fact that writing PoC/female characters at all isn't as important as writing them well. "I feel my portrayal of PoC/women/LGBT+ would be considered offensive" is a legitimate explanation for not having them.
author=LockeZ
Anyway my point is that you don't need variety within a single game unless your game is appealing to a mass audience. For smaller games, it works just as well to have variety across games instead. Two different people in the indie gaming community can each create a game: one game about black characters and another about white characters. One about males and another about females. One game about a heterosexual romance and another game about a homosexual romance. In some ways this is even better, since it means players can pick games that match their own interests, and pick games that feature characters representing their own groups. If every game were a melting pot, that wouldn't be possible.
Don't feel like you need to shoehorn things into your story when you have no knowledge of them or interest in them. Tell the story you want to tell. Other people can tell their own stories. Then there'll be all kinds of different stories for different people. Your one single independently created amateur story doesn't have to be marketed to every single person on earth.
Still feels like a boring approach to me. What if an indie wants to recapture the spirit of Final Fantasy 6, but they're a white 16 year old blonde guy who's only real world experience is flipping burgers? So nobody like Terra, Celes, or Relm. Hell, you can cross out most of the characters, actually. In the end, he ends up with a world stuck in dire, dire blandness. I've played RPG Maker games like that. They're painful.
Then again, I just said I made a game with only female playable characters. Does that make me a huge hypocrite? XD
