RACE AND GENDER IN GAMES

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author=pianotm
If they're not depicted as villains, then they're depicted as greedy, dubious merchants that will rip you off every time, and you have to deal with them because you need some exotic spice/cloth/jewel/any-other-MacGuffin that you can't find anywhere but they just happen to have.


Dammit.

I had just come up with a really awesome concept for a dark-skinned desert dwelling race, and then reading this made me go "Wait..Shit, they fit the secretive merchants who have exotic stuff" stereotype. Except that the only thing dubious about them is "You live on a continent that was so devastated by a previous conflict that it's 99% desert. How the hell do you have such fantastic goods?!", and they don't completely rip you off, nor wear turbans or stuff because their bodies resist heat like champs. >_>
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5137
author=pianotm
The bigger problem is that you can only really have a very specific kind of male protagonist for anyone to even remotely take your characters seriously.


I feel like this is true only within a particularly narrow slice of fiction, tho. Like, you bring up James Bond, who spends most of his time being a slim, suave dude with a teeny pistol. There's also stuff like Harry Potter (slightly jockish but nowhere near an action hero), Luke Skywalker (total goober who only gets competent and zen in the final act), und so weiter. Hell, manpain is a definite Thing in a lot of genres.

Just within the setting of JRPGs, your male protag is usually a plucky everyman type, who's athletic but not super-strong, and who tends to be hot-blooded with strong feelings about Stuff. The big buff dudes are generally relegated to either bit part mook or third string party.

There's a really wide variety of dude types available in fiction; conversely, it tends to be difficult to find as rich a variety for the ladies.
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
13616
Someday I should make the RPG equivalent of Magic Mike XXL: a bunch of hot straight dudes going on a roadtrip to wave their genitals around while talking about their feelings and empowering women. It'd be like FFX-2 but with Channing Tatum as Yuna. In Yuna's outfit.
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
25703
Sooz
author=pianotm
The bigger problem is that you can only really have a very specific kind of male protagonist for anyone to even remotely take your characters seriously.
I feel like this is true only within a particularly narrow slice of fiction, tho. Like, you bring up James Bond, who spends most of his time being a slim, suave dude with a teeny pistol. There's also stuff like Harry Potter (slightly jockish but nowhere near an action hero), Luke Skywalker (total goober who only gets competent and zen in the final act), und so weiter. Hell, manpain is a definite Thing in a lot of genres.

Just within the setting of JRPGs, your male protag is usually a plucky everyman type, who's athletic but not super-strong, and who tends to be hot-blooded with strong feelings about Stuff. The big buff dudes are generally relegated to either bit part mook or third string party.

There's a really wide variety of dude types available in fiction; conversely, it tends to be difficult to find as rich a variety for the ladies.

Yeah, but that narrow slice of fiction is really big, and it's all the majority of people really see. I mean, the male action hero is always a variation on the same tropes. He's the muscle man that can move anything, he's the genius that can fix anything, he's the awesome swordsman who a few weeks after picking up a sword for the first time can always defeat skilled opponents who've had years of training. If there's any other mighty warrior, it doesn't matter how skilled they are, rest assured, he's always better, or his weapon of choice makes the difference. And there are so many of these characters that they all start to run together. They are Greek gods who are just good at every-fucking-thing. And it's their damned fault that the awesome ladies are few and far between.


EDIT:
Aegix_Drakan
author=pianotm
If they're not depicted as villains, then they're depicted as greedy, dubious merchants that will rip you off every time, and you have to deal with them because you need some exotic spice/cloth/jewel/any-other-MacGuffin that you can't find anywhere but they just happen to have.
Dammit.

I had just come up with a really awesome concept for a dark-skinned desert dwelling race, and then reading this made me go "Wait..Shit, they fit the secretive merchants who have exotic stuff" stereotype. Except that the only thing dubious about them is "You live on a continent that was so devastated by a previous conflict that it's 99% desert. How the hell do you have such fantastic goods?!", and they don't completely rip you off, nor wear turbans or stuff because their bodies resist heat like champs. >_>

Oh! Sorry, I wasn't actually trying to make anyone feel uncomfortable. Just a little message to the writers that stereotypes are so easy to apply that most people don't even realize they're doing it.
Sooz asked some cool things so I will answer these.

What attracts you to the idea of adding in minority types?
Because the world is diverse! Throughout history, literally everywhere has been filled with diverse ethnic groups and cultures, genders and sexual orientations, etc. We often take for granted the world we have now as being The Way It Is, when that is blatantly untrue. Even if our society operates one way, that doesn't mean that all societies throughout history have operated in that way or been Different.

So, basically, I'm attracted to fiction because I can place myself and people like me in ~a narrative~, and I'm especially drawn to historical fiction for that reason. A lot of history about folks like me has been suppressed or forgotten, so we're left to rely on crumbs of fact. It's disheartening! So having stories can be a Big Deal for folks who don't read about themselves in textbooks, y'know?

Other than that, I want to actively challenge my own ethnocentrism and deconstruct the idea of what Normal People are like. I can work a lot of that out through the fiction writing process, so HEY NEAT i will do that.

How much have you done?
Literally everything I've written in the last 5 or so years has featured either LGBT+ characters, non-white folks, and non-men in central roles. I haven't hit DIVERSITY NIRVANA~ yet, obviously, but I'm working on it! The idea of writing things about straight, cis, white people (even if they are women) is super dull to me now.

What kind of research do you do, if you're writing someone whose circumstances are so different from your own?
I follow a lot of blogs kept by folks who are Different than me on tumblr, especially if they talk a lot about how their identity shapes their life experience, and read stuff that's been written by folks don't share my particular grouping of identities. Listening and showing respect is probably the most important aspect of research wrt other people. Other than that, I do what Sooz does and look up what stereotypes exist for the group I'm wanting to write about and common complaints that group has about characters like them.

The most important thing I do during research, tho: I don't treat folks in the group I'm researching like an encyclopedia. It's not fair to assume they're up for answering all of my -- potentially ignorant -- questions! If I really can't find what I'm looking for, I'll look for blogs dedicated to helping folks get info rather than messaging some rando who HAPPENS to have the identity I'm researching.

Is there any kind of identity you've intentionally avoided thus far? Would you ever consider writing that?

Absolutely! And there are two reasons for this:
1) The selfish reason -- sometimes I'm not in a place where I can take the inevitable "you fucked up". This is Fair and Fine, but it is also my problem to work past, and certainly not exclusive to feedback about characters I don't share an identity with.
2) I haven't done enough research yet!

So the answer to both of these is "sure, I'd give writing those groups a shot when I'm ready."

If you're some flavor of minority, what sort of things would you like to see in games about your status?
Real tired of folks like me cropping up as Weird or Evil or Deviant or a joke. Also real tired of my perceived gender being showcased as Titties and Sexy. I would really love to see some non-conventionally attractive women in games? Since, yeah, even the Cool Ladies are amazingly attractive and I dislike that.
...really i'm sick of conventionally attractive people in my media. Give me more "ugly" people pls.

And I say "percieved gender" because most people look at me and think "THAT'S A WOMAN~~~" when that is not how I ID at all! So for my REAL gender, that is, some flavour of non-binary... I'd like to see some representation. Any representation. Being invisible is Just Awful.

How do you feel about what's available now?
*fart noises*
half the games with people like me are Porn Games so like
PTTTHHHHBBBBTTTT

Are there any examples you can point to of really good or really terrible depictions?
Undertale was Great because you had a canon agender/non-binary protag, there were agender/non-binary people everywhere, two of the romantic relationships in the game were same-gender relationships, etc.

Basically I liked it because it was all v in your face, but there was no educational bs about it. Your protag was just A They and you could like it or get out, y'know? I like representation that is unquestioningly visible, but doesn't exist to Make A Statement to your dominant group audience.

Like, here's a Bad Example, imo: Krem in DA:I is a trans man, and the game is pretty shit about it! Your Inquisitor can interrogate this guy about his gender so cis people can Understand It, which is actually p typical, invasive behaviour directed at real trans people. That whole dialogue tree was personally uncomf because lmao I've sure gotten it before. To top it all off, Bull is Weird about his gender (there's some shit about ~oh he's masculine so he's a man i guess!!!!!~ iirc, it's been awhile), and Krem is legit played by a cis woman actor. All of these things are a perfect storm of Bad Trans Representation, even if Krem is framed in a relatively positive light. It was p clear Krem existed for the Cis Gaze rather than someone trans people could relate to, which imo is missing the point of representation.

@Craze: DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
13616
I think Bioware will improve on that front because after DA:I shipped, their lead writer left. This being the guy who refused to include romances with dwarves "because they look like children". I don't care that he was gay, I'm convinced he wrecked a lot of stuff.

I'm 99% sure that one of the final frames of Trespasser's ending (the final DLC) is (EXTREMELY minor spoiler re: Sera)

Sera and Dagna hugging and about to make out



solely because of the writing staff being like "HAHA WE CAN DO THIS NOW FUCK YOU GAIDER"
What attracts you to the idea of adding in minority types?
Frankly, I'm one of those people who like a variety in my characters. I focus on creating a character and give them life and reasons and desires and history. If they come from x place then they're going to probably be x race unless there's a good reason for them not to be. If they like male or female or nobody, then they do. I just like to create interesting, different characters and experimenting with that creation. I don't understand how people can just create the same character over and over again and feel fine with that. :/

How much have you done?
What? How many minority types? Most games I usually include at least a race or two that could be considered minority types in this world, even if in the world they live they ain't. Same with gender and sexuality. Usually my worlds have other things to focus on rather than whether two of the same gender sleep together or if this person has a slightly darker tint to their skin than others.

What kind of research do you do, if you're writing someone whose circumstances are so different from your own?
Well... I'm guilty of not really doing much in the way of hard research, mainly because that's not usually the focus of my games. As I said above, my minority groups ain't minority groups in my games so they experiences are quite a bit different to those of this world. There are other things that they worry about. Of course, if I need to focus on stuff like that I will do basic research and draw from my own observations and past history - I've seen some things that aren't very pleasant - or ask someone I know for information about x or y. Same thing I do when researching other areas of creating a world, really.

Is there any kind of identity you've intentionally avoided thus far? Would you ever consider writing that?
I guess, though I do add trans characters, I've avoided lead characters being trans so far. Again, I don't really care much about showing that kind of struggle in my characters but hey, I'll try anything once. I did have a character who was female but had to pretend to be male for years on end, so there's that at least, but yeah, I'd definitely consider one day writing a trans lead. They just... wouldn't focus on the point of them being trans. It'd be a throw-away fact at best.
:shrug:

If you're some flavor of minority, what sort of things would you like to see in games about your status?
Bi/Pan. Always down to see some characters who are also bi/pan, but honestly, as long as I get the choice to play a female lead, I'm happy.

How do you feel about what's available now?
Could be better. It is getting better. There's some great looking games coming out with female leads and the Star Wars film is definitely a step in a bigger, brighter direction.

Are there any examples you can point to of really good or really terrible depictions?
The Walking Dead was a good one. The main character was a black man and the female characters were quite strong, too. There were a mix of races too, if I recall correctly. But not once did colour or race come into the discussion at all. People were just presented as being people and what mattered most was your ability to survive, nothing else.

I think I also made a ... large and rambling ... point with Suikoden. It might not be the best when it comes to minority representation but damn if it don't get points for trying and the cultural racism was handled really well in II and III.

One of the first games I ever played was Breath of Fire II and the character representation there always stuck with me. There were a lot of different races and at a glance you'd expect them to act like x or y, but there were characters from those races who didn't. Add in great female leads who I still consider to be really good examples of female characters and it was, imo, a great game. A bit grindy, yes, but great. Your main healer was a giant Armadillo man and a dogman. Your hardest hitter was a catgirl with a stick and the main character who could turn into a dragon (cheating!). ^.^


I just want to put this quote here because I finally remembered it and it sums up some writing in my games quite well when it comes to me writing racial tensions at all:
“Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because - what with trolls and dwarfs and so on - speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green.”
author=pianotm
Aegix_Drakan
author=pianotm
If they're not depicted as villains, then they're depicted as greedy, dubious merchants that will rip you off every time, and you have to deal with them because you need some exotic spice/cloth/jewel/any-other-MacGuffin that you can't find anywhere but they just happen to have.
Dammit.

I had just come up with a really awesome concept for a dark-skinned desert dwelling race, and then reading this made me go "Wait..Shit, they fit the secretive merchants who have exotic stuff" stereotype. Except that the only thing dubious about them is "You live on a continent that was so devastated by a previous conflict that it's 99% desert. How the hell do you have such fantastic goods?!", and they don't completely rip you off, nor wear turbans or stuff because their bodies resist heat like champs. >_>


Oh! Sorry, I wasn't actually trying to make anyone feel uncomfortable. Just a little message to the writers that stereotypes are so easy to apply that most people don't even realize they're doing it.


That's exactly why I'm peeved. XD

I iterated really quick through some possibilities and went "oh wow, I just came up with a great idea for a race/culture in my game universe that has a lot of neat stuff going on and they don't fit any of the dumb stereotypes about desert-origin or colored individua-MODSBANNIT, the Arabian Trader Stereotype! AUGH!"

I'm more annoyed than uncomfortable, but hey, that just means that I should keep looking at my idea and seeing if I can add further spins on it or approach it from a better angle. Either way, I'm keeping the core of it and might stick with the whole idea, but realizing I sidestepped one pack of stereotypes and into another is a bit irritating.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5137
Yeah stereotypes can be a HUGE PAIN IN THE ASS because you're going, "OK awesome, I avoided this one yay for life" and then find out that OH THERE'S THIS DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSITE ONE and now apparently your only option is to make something super bland OH WAIT THEN IT'S THIS THIRD PROBLEM

And then if you're Sooz you just go, "WELL FUCK IT WHATEVER I'M JUST GONNA STAY THE COURSE AND HOPE THINGS ARE COMPLEX ENOUGH TO MAKE UP FOR IT," and then go look at pictures of dogs until you calm down.
You could easily make the arabian traders interesting if you give them more depth than their profession - one could be a truly treacherous type who likes to rip off customers for profit. Another could have a great fascination with your stuff because it's exotic to him. Yet another one could hate the first one and tries to expose him as a scammer.

As you see, you can easily make characters from cliché archetypes interesting if they have more to their character than just their cliché.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5236
You can't say "I want race or gender to be included as something that isn't just applying a visual effect to the character sprites" and then also say "I don't want stereotypes." Any other difference beyond the different sprite is a stereotype. If you're not following an existing stereotype, you're creating a new one.

The words "culture" and "stereotype" are synonyms. We just use one word when we want to put a positive spin on the concept, and the other word when we want to put a negative spin on it.

author=emmych
...really i'm sick of conventionally attractive people in my media. Give me more "ugly" people pls.
This is just weird as hell to me. I can't wrap my head around it at all. Making a work of fiction more attractive is just objectively better. Do you also want ugly backgrounds, ugly animations, ugly pixel art, bad special effects, badly written music, stupid dialogue? The choice of characters in a game or actors in a movie is no different from any of these other things. They're chosen to make the art itself more attractive.
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
13616
LockeZ
You can't say "I want race or gender to be included as something that isn't just applying a visual effect to the character sprites" and then also say "I don't want stereotypes." Any other difference beyond the different sprite is a stereotype. If you're not following an existing stereotype, you're creating a new one.


wat.png
The difference between a stereotype and a culture is the same as the difference between a Lego brick and a Lego sculpture. A culture is the collection of traits that define the people, while a stereotype is a single trait that is common within the culture.

I'll stay with something fictional to not offend any viewers to illustrate: A stereotype for dragons is the ability to breathe fire. The fact that they usually retreat in caves, hoard treasure, eat adventurers for lunch and rarely spend time parenting are multiple traits that define their culture.
I'd actually call all those things stereotypes, re: dragons. It's up to the creator what the culture of them includes and I've seen some very cool dragon cultures that don't involve caves, adventurer eating, no parenting and hoarding treasure.

You are right about the difference between culture and stereotype, though it's usually a case of people saying 'this is a descriptor that fits all of x race' when in reality it might only fit those who have been shown in the media as such. The idea that everyone in that race is this particular way is often false.

All Elves are haughty bowers who live in forests and are xenophobic is a stereotype, and yet seeing the culture up close you have elves that fit that description quite well. But there are also quite a few who defy those ideas - Galadriel and Elrond, who welcomed the Fellowship with open arms and the Elves of Gondolin who use a varied array of weapons and armour. Both exist in the same world as part of the same race but neither is the stereotypical image of an elf.

Because even within a race, there are sub-cultures that differ from each other. Comparing the city folk of one race to the country folk of the same race is bound to show a lot of differences between them. And yet the stereotype for that race will spout that all of them share particular traits - and sometimes it is true that there are some traits that are shared. And there's nothing wrong with using stereotypes in general as long as that's not all you use.

So you can have the dark-skinned people of the desert who are traders. Because it makes sense! Being in the desert will make you dark skinned, especially over generations. And because they know the desert they will traverse it better than other races who don't, thus allowing for a very good commercial activity in acting as traders. It's common sense, not racism. However, if you start adding other aspects of stereotyping to them for the sake of making them a caricature of a real race, then it falls into racism.

(Turbans are actually really good for regulating the heat, yo. They ain't wearing them to look snazzy - the fashion still lives for a reason and it's a good reason with a lot of common sense behind it. It's not racist to use common sense in your settings. :/ )
What I think is important is that your characters may fit into certain stereotypes or other common tropes, but that should not be their only defining trait. This problem is usually known as "Planet of Hats", named due to its prelevance in science fiction. Usually, alien races are defined by a single, unifying trait that is carried by all members of the species (their hat). It's actually less common in fantasy, because they'll often have that one person in the race who defies the common idea of it (usually, it's a ripoff of Drizzt Do'Urden). Or a renegade faction.

Protip: Making your character defy his stereotypes because he's a half-breed is stupid, especially if it's half-human.
I'm here because I like answering questions. Burn me :)

I consider sexuality and race to be purely extraneous details. Majority of the games I played that tried to go with these themes in mind failed to go beyond the "has coloureds, such diversity" level. And don't get me started on the yuri's (1)(2). Seriously, why should a character being gay explicitly thrown at a player's face? Do they really have to be turban-donning and vocal about it?

Just go out on the street and look for people yelling "I'm <insert 'minority' group here> and proud of it!". Take notes on their actions, words, nuances, and use that as a list of things to NOT do. People that are proud of it remain quiet, because they know there's no need to share. They don't tell the planet, they just go about like everyone does.

author=LightningLord2
Also, a small litmus test: Simply count down each named Character in your game(-s) and tell me the percentage of

-female
-colored
-LGBT+
I only have one finished game that I consider as 'serious'...
Lyra: 4 characters; all female, all white.
Lyra and her sister *had* to be females, because I had other (discontinued) plans that (were supposed to) follow afterwards. Ciete could've been male, if only I wasn't reluctant to risk making the game coming off (somehow) rape-y. I wasn't sure what Myst should be. But she had to be a doll, and I figured that female was the easiest choice. All four of them were white because the brown-skinned sprites of the generator were terrible.

author=Sooz
As an attempt to make this topic not about what it's turned into, here's some discussion questions (from a similar thread I was planning before I started drowning in stuff to do):
What attracts you to the idea of adding in minority types?
I'm not inclined to "add" minorities. As I said, these are irrelevant information for me. And I don't really have plans on making stuff, gam or otherwise, that showcases any.

How much have you done?
None so far. I do have that weird short story that was a random day in the life of a (highly intimate) couple, both male. Put bluntly, it was yaoi. But that was made when I was suffering from high fevers so...

What kind of research do you do, if you're writing someone whose circumstances are so different from your own?
I watch movies, tv shows, and youtube videos or surf the net and lurk in forums. Usually, while claiming the whole time that I'm not procrastinating.

If I can't do that, then I go outside and observe people. Malls are a first choice, followed by the shopping district and the market, jeep/bus/trike station, and finally the airport. I try to avoid this as much as I can, because it isn't exactly cheap to travel all over the place. But it's generally more rewarding than my first method, since I actually got to see these people first-hand.

Is there any kind of identity you've intentionally avoided thus far? Would you ever consider writing that?
I'd go ahead and say male homosexuals.

It's more of me bending over to cultural stigma, though. Most people in this country are very "Christian" and traditional. It's considered a shame for the parents to have a gay child, especially if he/she was the eldest. The parents themselves may not have a problem about it, but there's always some ones out there completely against it. While it's definitely better than before (I doubt anyone still gets beaten regularly nowadays, thanks to media and stuff), it still isn't widely accepted.

Another identity I avoid, though not willingly like the first, is: muslim. Because narrow-minded people here (and maybe elsewhere) automatically equate muslims with communist insurgents, thanks to extremist movements of a very tiny portion of them in the southern isles. Really, I bet those people have never even gotten into mindanao, much less met a muslim. Heck I live there, and I can guarantee that they *will not* charge at every non-muslim with guns and bolos.

I avoid doing things relating to them in fear of doing further damage. I'm no expert in their specific ways either, so I can't go about and promote them.

If you're some flavour of minority, what sort of things would you like to see in games about your status?
Would being a "non-white" Asian count as a minority? If yes, then I'd love for games to stop assuming that Asian == Chinese/Japanese; Seriously getting tired of the "Far-East" thing.

How do you feel about what's available now?
The ones I've come across were either terrible porn games, or neither-bad-nor-good pseudo-porn games (the worst part was that I thought they weren't porn games, and almost got into severe misunderstandings several times). I've yet to play/read/what-ev something that isn't sexually suggestive in any degree. I'm waiting on Luxaren to be finished so I could change that fact :)

Are there any examples you can point to of really good or really terrible depictions?
I... don't think sharing those kinds of "stuff" is ok, so pass :)

Edit: Typos and stuff.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5137
author=karins_soulkeeper
I consider sexuality and race to be purely extraneous details.


Many people do as well. The problem here is that the overwhelming majority of media have decided that these things being "extraneous" means that they should only show one sexuality and one race overall.

If they truly had no effect on the overall audience, one would expect a much more varied sampling of races and sexualities, rather than disproportionately white and hetero.

And don't get me started on the yuri's (1)(2). Seriously, why should a character being gay explicitly thrown at a player's face? Do they really have to be turban-donning and vocal about it?


What do you consider to be "turban donning and vocal"?

What is different about how a gay character is depicted versus how a straight character is depicted?

Just go out on the street and look for people yelling "I'm <insert 'minority' group here> and proud of it!". Take notes on their actions, words, nuances, and use that as a list of things to NOT do. People that are proud of it remain quiet, because they know there's no need to share. They don't tell the planet, they just go about like everyone does.


Generally, people who are "out and proud" are doing this because there are many, many people and institutions who have told them, all their lives, that they should be ashamed and quiet about who they are.
unity
You're magical to me.
12169
author=karins_soulkeeper
And don't get me started on the yuri's (1)(2)


What are the numbers after "the yuri's" for?

As someone who's making a yuri game, do you see me guilty of that as well?

I also want to know what you mean about "turban donning and vocal." Is having a character who is obviously attracted to the same sex included in that? And how would that be different than showing a male character who is obviously attracted to women or a female character who is obviously attracted to men?
"Turban-donning and vocal" are those characters that repeatedly slap you in the face with "I'm wearing a turban", vocal or otherwise, just for the heck of it. Usually barely in context, if even. Maybe my original wording wasn't very well thought-out, but that's what I meant.

author=sooz
What is different about how a gay character is depicted versus how a straight character is depicted?
The "gay-ness" is over-exaggerated and over-emphasized. It's as if being gay is his only defining character.

Example in a game I played recently, there was one gay character, and he was terribly bland. He literally had no personality other than being gay. And you can't write it off as a mistake or short-coming of the devs too, since the "up-for-grabs" women and the main character were all very well written, to the point of believability. It makes it seem like the devs just wanted a comic-relief character for their otherwise dark game. Oh, and he did this job by incessantly attempting to sexually harass the main character. There were several others I played that had similar issues, but at varying degrees.

While the stuff I've glanced upon were obviously the butt-end in terms of quality, it's still saddening to see those kind of things being done.

author=unity
author=karins_soulkeeper
And don't get me started on the yuri's (1)(2)
What are the numbers after "the yuri's" for?

As someone who's making a yuri game, do you see me guilty of that as well?

I also want to know what you mean about "turban donning and vocal." Is having a character who is obviously attracted to the same sex included in that? And how would that be different than showing a male character who is obviously attracted to women or a female character who is obviously attracted to men?

The numbers are typos. why didn't I see them??? >.<;

No, no. Not at all! I've nothing against yuri (and yaoi). I meant the yuri's that I've played/watched/read. Those were bad.

Depends on how things are run, I guess. If it's contextual and not awkward, then it will be wrong NOT to show that that is so. And hetero relationships feel more "natural", and go right through without raising any eyebrows. That's what most of the world were taught anyway.
Craze
i bet she's a diva with a potion popping problem
13616
Sooz
Generally, people who are "out and proud" are doing this because there are many, many people and institutions who have told them, all their lives, that they should be ashamed and quiet about who they are.


I'm not much of a Gay Pride! kinda guy, and I have some issues with Gay-Straight Alliances, but... yeah. I never talk about it at school because it's just... weird. A lot of the kids I work with (I work in behavioral special ed) constantly use "fag" and "gay" as derogatory statements and wouldn't take very well to knowing that Mr. B is a big ol' homo. Some wouldn't care (I have at least one kid who identifies as a girl but has no real interest in the binary), but I could probably get attacked if they knew and we were left alone. So that's fun.

I have nothing against friendly proud folk, although I choose not to participate in parades and such, because nothing negative can come from it as long as they're respectful. I mean, if you're gonna celebrate Columbus Day, I'm gonna support Folsom.

tl;dr: i find dancing around in shiny purple leotards tacky and not for me but if you're gonna do it, might as well fucking do it

Also why should a character being explicitly gay be thrown at a player's face? Bad writing is bad writing. But I see no reason with it coming up in passing. If straight guys and gals in movies get to comment on hotties all the time, I want to see the gay guy checking out a cutie patooty tushie.

I think the hardest thing for people to wrap their heads around is that the accepted default does not need to be straight white male. Any deviation from that is seen as MYSTERIOUS EXTOIC TABOO, except for maybe female characters in certain cases (although see a lot of female heroes that are still written like men (yes there's a difference between having masculine traits, which is fine, and a female hero that's just a body-swapped man)).

tl;dr v2: yes we do need characters that explicitly state their identity (maybe not verbally saying "i am a genderqueer them who likes to suck dick", but being known somehow -- again, bad writing is bad writing but good writing can let us know these things without screaming it and pointing a giant red arrow at the person) because of people saying things like "why should it be thrown at our face"