RACE AND GENDER IN GAMES

Posts

Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5137
LOL uni and Sooz synchronization :V
kentona
I am tired of Earth. These people. I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives.
21227
Don't worry Feld IV. I own my whiteness.
author=Sooz
I don't think anyone has said this though?

I guess I'll have to wait for you to get around to your examples, because so far as I've read I haven't seen anything about being ashamed of being the majority or anything, so your posting confuses me.

I expressed a sentiment that I have noticed in general that I think tangimentally pertains to some of the sentiments I've seen in this topic. What exactly are you asking me for?

author=guy
I'm ASHAMED to be white!!!

No, nobody has straight up said that in this topic, if that's what you're looking for. But I expressed a sentiment that I feel exists that has motivated some of the sentiment in this topic. I apologize if I haven't explained that adequately, but like I said, I sort of realize that and like I mentioned before I will expound on my sentiments with more specificity later.

author=unity
Fair enough. I'm not advocating forcing anyone to do anything with their own work. But have you never talked to non-white friends, who find the lack of relatable characters in media baffling? I would personally like to remedy that a little bit. Not from any sort of sense of guilt, but because why not? It makes me happy and doesn't cost me anything.

Of course I have. Like how in the TV show Friends, which is set in New York fucking City, almost everyone is white? It's irritating, but oddly enough it can happen that way in real life. When I lived over that way I actually did know people who lived in extremely diverse areas but only ever interacted and made friends with white people. When I moved to the West Coast I knew tons of Asians who only ever interacted with Asian people their entire lives, like, ever. When I joined the military I roomed with a guy from the Midwest who literally never met a minority face to face until he was 13.

Shit's weird that way.
kentona
I am tired of Earth. These people. I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives.
21227
I never saw a black person until I was about 11. True story.

(but there were lots of natives - the city I grew up in was surrounded by Reserves, so don't think I was livin' all white all the time)
unity
You're magical to me.
12169
author=Feldschlacht IV
Of course I have. Like how in the TV show Friends, which is set in New York fucking City, almost everyone is white? It's irritating, but oddly enough it can happen that way in real life. When I lived over that way I actually did know people who lived in extremely diverse areas but only ever interacted and made friends with white people. When I moved to the West Coast I knew tons of Asians who only ever interacted with Asian people their entire lives, like, ever. When I joined the military I roomed with a guy from the Midwest who literally never met a minority face to face until he was 13.

Shit's weird that way.


Totally. But not everyone's that way. You can conceive that there are motivations beyond guilt, right? So what's wrong with those of us who want to include diversity in games? Your comments here seem to feel like you think doing so, and even making a little topic here and discussing it, isn't cool and is, in fact, inherently negative. If that's not the case, I'd love to hear that I'm mistaken. But so far all you've brought up is self-flagellation and people motivated by guilt and other such sentiments that seem to discouraging discussion of including diversity.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5137
author=Feldschlacht IV
But I expressed a sentiment that I feel exists that has motivated some of the sentiment in this topic. I apologize if I haven't explained that adequately, but like I said, I sort of realize that and like I mentioned before I will expound on my sentiments with more specificity later.

How about I ask this instead: why does it matter what motivates the addition of people other than the usual suspects?

As a separate question: Is it okay for me, a white person, to do a lot of not-white characters if I am motivated by wanting to do things differently in general? Or am I somehow full of White Guilt because I'm just kind of bored of white protags?

Of course I have. Like how in the TV show Friends, which is set in New York fucking City, almost everyone is white? It's irritating, but oddly enough it can happen that way in real life.

The thing that bugs me is that, yeah, it can happen in real life, but we never see any of the permutations of these situations EXCEPT for the ones that involve only white people, or only straight people, or only men. If more media reflected the weird diversity of life, that'd be OK.

Question: Do you feel like this topic in general is trying to state that people who aren't into the diversity thing are bad or something? Because a lot of your answers are reading like you feel you need to defend yourself.
author=unity
You can conceive that there are motivations beyond guilt, right? So what's wrong with those of us who want to include diversity in games? Your comments here seem to feel like you think doing so, and even making a little topic here and discussing it, isn't cool and is, in fact, inherently negative. If that's not the case, I'd love to hear that I'm mistaken. But so far all you've brought up is self-flagellation and people motivated by guilt and other such sentiments that seem to discouraging discussion of including diversity.

No, no, and no, but that's fine.

I dunno I get that you guys are curious as to why I'd bring this up and that's fine, but don't like, feel attacked. I'm definitely not trying to imply that ALL OCCASIONS/DISCUSSIONS of minority inclusiveness in works is indicative of white guilt. I literally never said that, and if I implied that, my bad???

My post is being extrapolated into a lot more than what it was. The crux of my argument is that I do feel at least some of the desire to be inclusive in works is a result of white guilt, and as a minority, it shows, and feels fucking weird. Sometimes it actually shows in the final result of said work, and then its really weird.

Maybe my feelings are incorrect, but they're there, and I won't have them invalidated, although I don't blame you for questioning them. I get the feeling that the defensiveness is coming from your end, not mine. Maybe I should have waited until I was less tired to post, but fuck it, that's how I feel, and I will elaborate on it later.
unity
You're magical to me.
12169
author=Feldschlacht IV
Maybe my feelings are incorrect, but they're there, and I won't have them invalidated, although I don't blame you for questioning them. I get the feeling that the defensiveness is coming from your end, not mine. Maybe I should have waited until I was less tired to post, but fuck it, that's how I feel, and I will elaborate on it later.


That's fine. I wanted clarification because I really wasn't sure. Maybe I'm just in a defensive mood?

I dunno, if I was talking in a thread about damage formulas and someone said "Some of you are using damage formulas wrong but I'm not gonna say who or quote you or anything," it'd be very hard for me to not think "Is he talking about me? I really wish I knew if he was talking about me. What am I doing wrong here?" It's a bad mindset, I know.

I'll just chill and leave the thread alone for a while.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5137
author=Feldschlacht IV
Maybe my feelings are incorrect, but they're there, and I won't have them invalidated, although I don't blame you for questioning them. I get the feeling that the defensiveness is coming from your end, not mine. Maybe I should have waited until I was less tired to post, but fuck it, that's how I feel, and I will elaborate on it later.


I think a lot of the defensiveness on our end is that every other time I've seen someone post the ol' White Guilt thing, it's with the added message of "...and that's why nobody should ever do diversity ever."

If you're interested in pointing out anyone in particular doing something you think is weird, please actually point out that behaviour. The generalised "Well, SOME PEOPLE are like this, and I'M NOT SAYING WHO..." thing is really, really not helpful and just derails everything into the same old conversation. (Hell, I'm only engaging this much because there wasn't anything else going on in the thread.)

I'm much more interested in ways to better do representation of minority types than in questioning the motivations behind it: if it ends up with something cool, then who cares? If it ends up with something shit, what can be done to make it less shit?
author=Sooz
If you're interested in pointing out anyone in particular doing something you think is weird, please actually point out that behaviour. The generalised "Well, SOME PEOPLE are like this, and I'M NOT SAYING WHO..." thing is really, really not helpful

author=unity
I dunno, if I was talking in a thread about damage formulas and someone said "Some of you are using damage formulas wrong but I'm not gonna say who or quote you or anything," it'd be very hard for me to not think "Is he talking about me? I really wish I knew if he was talking about me. What am I doing wrong here?" It's a bad mindset, I know.

I think that's a bad example/argument because people can and do make general statements that are about no one in particular except a few posts and the person(s) writing it aren't as important as the collective sentiment from those posts.

If I was in a topic about damage formulas and I noticed that I thought (these are just examples guys! I LOVE YOU) Craze, Darken, and Pizza were wrong about some aspects, say, their thoughts on critical damage algorithms or some shit, do I need to call them out in particular to express the general sentiment of 'Yeah I think there's a vibe going around about critical damage formulas that just rubs me the wrong way'?

author=Sooz
I'm much more interested in ways to better do representation of minority types than in questioning the motivations behind it:

I disagree because the motivations behind any artistic expression are incredibly important and at worst the subjects of said artistic expression (in this case, minorities) can usually tell the difference unless you're a really good writer.
author=kentona
I never saw a black person until I was about 11. True story.

(but there were lots of natives - the city I grew up in was surrounded by Reserves, so don't think I was livin' all white all the time)


I didn't see anyone who wasn't white until I was about 15. That's what happens when you live in a town of 200 that is inaccessible by land.
Bit of column a and b for me. Yeah, motivations can be important as to why, but if that person learns something by doing it, even if they started with the 'wrong' motivation, then they're broadening their ideas about stuff they never thought of before and that should be encouraged.

It's like the 'Write only what you know' argument. It's not about writing only what you know, it's about learning about something and then writing about it. It's more about not writing from ignorance than just sticking to the things only you, personally, know about. The world would be a lacklustre place if there were no Star Trek and Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter and Final Fantasy and Suikoden and so on.

Frankly, make shit up all you like, but if it does mirror a real life experience, learn a bit about it first so that you're not being ignorant in what information you're spreading. Any good fantasy author knows that you have to be extremely realistic with the real things so that you can sell the fake things as real. If someone comes along with knowledge about blacksmithing and see that you don't know shit about it, why on earth would they buy into your explanation about magic? You've already shown you don't know what you're talking about once.

So yeah, learn then write is the real meaning behind that saying.


I went to primary school with an Aboriginal boy (on whom I had the biggest crush) and I have a mix of English, Spanish, German, Islander, American and Scottish blood. I'm whiter than fucking snow but my great grandmother is full blood Islander and my mother goes pretty brown in the sun. We don't have the culture, though, which makes a huge difference (especially as my great grandmother was one of the stolen generation, so she was raised in a white household and lost the ties to her cultural identity). It's hard to find black people where I live, but I grew up with a Jewish family as my mum's friends, a Phillipine boy as my high-school crush (Ron~<3), worked in a factory with a group of cheery South African fellows who were all great people and worked for a Chinese man who ran a restaurant. There really isn't much diversity here in colour tones, but hell, I live in an inland town with a population of 7000. We get trucks coming through, but we're lucky to have any minorities at all in this podunk place. Just goes to show that racial unity is spreading bit by bit. Go to Melbourne and there's diversity all over the place and it's wonderful to see.

I'm still considered white as fuck and yes, I benefit from it. I ain't looking away from that and I feel terrible when people who are of a minority are treated ways I never would be.

That doesn't mean I write darker skinned characters from guilt over it, though. I'm not the one to blame for how assholes act - all I can do is make sure I call it out when I see it and treat people right myself. And teach my nieces and nephew not to be racist brats, which I do. If everyone did that eventually the world would get better. So while I do feel bad about those things, I don't feel guilty because I know the sins of my ancestors aren't mine and that I'm doing what I can to make equalsies.

Even if it gets me hated by other white people around me (I got spat at not long ago by some old bitch when I told her off for muttering obscenities under her breath about the Taiwanese cashier a few weeks back. Don't care, bitch had it coming. Let her spit and glare. The smile on the girl's face was more than enough to counter the idiocy of the old bat.)
I don't have a lot of time right now, but I just wanted to chip in and say I like/appreciate your post, Liberty.
author=Sooz
I think a lot of the defensiveness on our end is that every other time I've seen someone post the ol' White Guilt thing, it's with the added message of "...and that's why nobody should ever do diversity ever."

Funny how perspectives work. Has anyone said or implied that here? Because from where I'm standing, it's usually the other way around. The message goes: "...and that's why everybody should do diversity always". Just a few pages ago people where being fairly judgmental of the Witcher 3 for not having people of color in the game. Apparently it is Ok to tell Polish people what is and is not part of their culture and history and how they are allowed to portray it in media, just because they failed to meet a diversity quota...

Topics like this send me very mixed signals overall, and this is just one example. "Oh, it's not about "quotas", but how dare you not have characters of X demographic in your game!!?" Well, if it's really not about "quotas" then stuff like this should not matter one way or the other. And unless there's evidence that the developers are doing something in bad faith, people have zero business second-guessing their motives or design choices. Dismissing others artistic freedom just because they failed to cater to your sensibilities, goes beyond just having a discussion or being able to consume media with an analytic mind, and steps into busybody territory.

Being part of a minority group myself, all I would like to see is more variety. That's it. Just because it is a thing that exists and it would be nice to have more of it... But that's not to say there's anything wrong with the lack of it. I grew up with media that was not very diverse and this didn't bring any harm to me. It didn't "erase" my identity, it didn't make me feel "disempowered", it didn't rob me of my "humanity", it didn't take my "voice" away, or anything of the sort. And I fail to see how thinking like this would benefit me at all.
_
So, to anyone listening out there: Do what you want to do. Do what it works for you. Stay true to your vision. Don't let anyone sway your way. No one should have to characterize you or what you write as "uncritical", "abhorrent", "hurtful", "garbage" etc. All.Options.Are.Valid.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7527
author=FlyingJester
author=kentona
I never saw a black person until I was about 11. True story.

(but there were lots of natives - the city I grew up in was surrounded by Reserves, so don't think I was livin' all white all the time)
I didn't see anyone who wasn't white until I was about 15. That's what happens when you live in a town of 200 that is inaccessible by land.


Alcatraz?
One thing I'd like to point out is that it's not just dark skinned minorites that get left out. There's plenty of white skinned races out there that are shunned too - their cultures are interesting as well.

That's why I rather liked the Witcher 3 - because it gave me a glimpse into the stories and histories of a culture I'd never seen much of. Granted, if there'd been darker people around that area at the timeline it is kinda a dick move not to include some at least, but I rather enjoyed the glimpse into another culture.

Honestly, I'd like to see more of little cultures. Little tribes and countries who have all these traditions that are ignored - black or white skinned. Too many games focus on the main hubs of America and England. I want to see the Polynese and New Zealand and Thursday Islanders and Tibet and the Phillipines and... well, other places!
Most of the white races that are being mistreated are the slavic ones - the whites that live on other continents are mostly descended from colonists.

There's also some Inuit culture present in Never Alone, if you look for more games like that.
@Liberty> I could do a Filipino-centric game if you want :)

I've actually been planning on doing an rpg set during the spanish colonial period in this country. Maybe a story of how the revolution built up and crashed down on them (and how america came out of nowhere and bought the islands for a few cents a person). But couldn't figure out how it would play exactly.

It won't be anything fancy of course. And it likely won't be released any time in the foreseeable future...
Yellow Magic
Could I BE any more Chandler Bing from Friends (TM)?
3065
As another ethnic minority person, I'm going to have to agree with Mog and alterego in that many of you care perhaps a bit too much, and it, quite frankly, creeps me out sometimes. Like, sure, it'd be nice to see more characters of South Asian descent in video games, but we're not an endangered species, you know?

Being part of a minority group myself, all I would like to see is more variety. That's it. Just because it is a thing that exists and it would be nice to have more of it... But that's not to say there's anything wrong with the lack of it. I grew up with media that was not very diverse and this didn't bring any harm to me. It didn't "erase" my identity, it didn't make me feel "disempowered", it didn't rob me of my "humanity", it didn't take my "voice" away, or anything of the sort. And I fail to see how thinking like this would benefit me at all.
Pretty much. And I never noticed how white Friends was! LOL that's pretty awkward
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5137
author=Yellow Magic
As another ethnic minority person, I'm going to have to agree with Mog and alterego in that many of you care perhaps a bit too much, and it, quite frankly, creeps me out sometimes. Like, sure, it'd be nice to see more characters of South Asian descent in video games, but we're not an endangered species, you know?


OK, cool, but it'd be a lot better overall if y'all would POINT OUT EXAMPLES of this, so maybe the people involved would tone it down a notch? Because otherwise all you're doing is contributing "Well, SOMEONE is doing something wrong, but I'm not going to give any specifics or say who, so you'll all have to sit and try to figure it out," which, as I said before, is super unhelpful.

Like seriously, if I'm jamming my foot down my throat here, I would like to know so that, in the future, I do not do it again. Currently, all I have is the fact that nobody has said, "Hey, Sooz, your foot should not be next to your vocal cords."