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HEALTH BARS IN RPGS: AN ACTUAL GAME DESIGN DISCUSSION
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Jude
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CloseThere are positives and negatives to both options, most of which have already been mentioned. Everything that's explicitly given to the player takes away a degree of discovery, so just decide where and when you think that's a good trade. My kneejerk reaction is to prefer killing x number of y shows y's HP bar, because it adds a micro-system and some micro-content to the game. One idea is to take a page from a lot of action games. Don't show the HP bars of common enemies, but display them for bosses. It adds a small element of drama to the fight, identifying this encounter as being Very Important... Bonus points if the HP bar fills up with little beeps at the start like Mega Man.
Remember how they did it in the original Breath of Fire? Every enemy had a health bar, even bosses, and attack damage was displayed as "Down [xxx]". But the bosses had a neat trick: after depleting their health to a sliver, they would glow, and often transform. The health bar would not refill, so you would be facing this new challenge with no way to know how much longer the battle was going to last. It was often suspenseful.
Milennin
2060
Talking about traditional RPGs: I don't see how not having a health bar could ever be a good, with a few exceptions:
1. Game is incredibly easy/casual, so it doesn't matter, anyway.
2. Game has different graphics for each monster, depending on how hurt they are.
I hate not seeing enemy health bars because I won't know how much health the enemy has left. Against regular encounters it doesn't matter as much, but against bosses it's the worst.
Not knowing the boss's health makes fights boring because you're just playing it safe until the boss finally dies. When you can see the boss HP you can start planning ahead and take risks once you see the boss is close to dying. It can also help defending against a boss when you know it has certain enrage points (75/50/25% HP).
When you die against a monster that doesn't show an HP bar you don't actually know how close you got to beating it, so you don't know if you were playing badly or were simply underlevelled/geared. When you do see the monster's HP bar and die against it, you can make a much better guess about what might've gone wrong. It's also much more motivating to retry a boss that you managed to bring down to a sliver of HP than being left in the dark about its HP.
1. Game is incredibly easy/casual, so it doesn't matter, anyway.
2. Game has different graphics for each monster, depending on how hurt they are.
I hate not seeing enemy health bars because I won't know how much health the enemy has left. Against regular encounters it doesn't matter as much, but against bosses it's the worst.
Not knowing the boss's health makes fights boring because you're just playing it safe until the boss finally dies. When you can see the boss HP you can start planning ahead and take risks once you see the boss is close to dying. It can also help defending against a boss when you know it has certain enrage points (75/50/25% HP).
When you die against a monster that doesn't show an HP bar you don't actually know how close you got to beating it, so you don't know if you were playing badly or were simply underlevelled/geared. When you do see the monster's HP bar and die against it, you can make a much better guess about what might've gone wrong. It's also much more motivating to retry a boss that you managed to bring down to a sliver of HP than being left in the dark about its HP.
Gredge109
4151
This has become a very good discussion! I never really cared whether or not a health bar was used in an rpg. I didn't realize how much other people liked them.
If I implement them (which is what I might do after reading this topic), I'd most likely use health bars for bosses. The pack of common enemies, like 6x Goblins that can be cut down in a single attack each, don't really need health bars if their only purpose is to die after they take a little hp away from the players before they get to the boss.
Good topic.
If I implement them (which is what I might do after reading this topic), I'd most likely use health bars for bosses. The pack of common enemies, like 6x Goblins that can be cut down in a single attack each, don't really need health bars if their only purpose is to die after they take a little hp away from the players before they get to the boss.
Good topic.
author=Milennin
Talking about traditional RPGs: I don't see how not having a health bar could ever be a good, with a few exceptions:
1. Game is incredibly easy/casual, so it doesn't matter, anyway.
2. Game has different graphics for each monster, depending on how hurt they are.
I hate not seeing enemy health bars because I won't know how much health the enemy has left. Against regular encounters it doesn't matter as much, but against bosses it's the worst.
Not knowing the boss's health makes fights boring because you're just playing it safe until the boss finally dies. When you can see the boss HP you can start planning ahead and take risks once you see the boss is close to dying. It can also help defending against a boss when you know it has certain enrage points (75/50/25% HP).
When you die against a monster that doesn't show an HP bar you don't actually know how close you got to beating it, so you don't know if you were playing badly or were simply underlevelled/geared. When you do see the monster's HP bar and die against it, you can make a much better guess about what might've gone wrong. It's also much more motivating to retry a boss that you managed to bring down to a sliver of HP than being left in the dark about its HP.
Pro tip: When it's dead its HP is 0. That's really all you need to know. :DDD
i really don't have much of an opinion on this so i've been avoiding it, but
this sounds fucking awful if you do it more than once
Zachary_Braun
Remember how they did it in the original Breath of Fire? Every enemy had a health bar, even bosses, and attack damage was displayed as "Down [xxx]". But the bosses had a neat trick: after depleting their health to a sliver, they would glow, and often transform. The health bar would not refill, so you would be facing this new challenge with no way to know how much longer the battle was going to last. It was often suspenseful.
this sounds fucking awful if you do it more than once
author=Milennin
Talking about traditional RPGs: I don't see how not having a health bar could ever be a good, with a few exceptions:
1. Game is incredibly easy/casual, so it doesn't matter, anyway.
2. Game has different graphics for each monster, depending on how hurt they are.
I hate not seeing enemy health bars because I won't know how much health the enemy has left. Against regular encounters it doesn't matter as much, but against bosses it's the worst.
Not knowing the boss's health makes fights boring because you're just playing it safe until the boss finally dies. When you can see the boss HP you can start planning ahead and take risks once you see the boss is close to dying. It can also help defending against a boss when you know it has certain enrage points (75/50/25% HP).
When you die against a monster that doesn't show an HP bar you don't actually know how close you got to beating it, so you don't know if you were playing badly or were simply underlevelled/geared. When you do see the monster's HP bar and die against it, you can make a much better guess about what might've gone wrong. It's also much more motivating to retry a boss that you managed to bring down to a sliver of HP than being left in the dark about its HP.
That uncertainty is thrill to some players.
author=Craze
i really don't have much of an opinion on this so i've been avoiding it, but
Zachary_Braun
Remember how they did it in the original Breath of Fire? Every enemy had a health bar, even bosses, and attack damage was displayed as "Down [xxx]". But the bosses had a neat trick: after depleting their health to a sliver, they would glow, and often transform. The health bar would not refill, so you would be facing this new challenge with no way to know how much longer the battle was going to last. It was often suspenseful.
this sounds fucking awful if you do it more than once
Nah, it works out well - it's basically a second breath type thing where the boss changes their attacks and skillsets a little, and the second 'stage' is much shorter than the first (bar one).
For example, one of the end-game bosses has a first round of 1300 HP (you can see the bar for this), but his second round is only 400HP (you can't see the bar, but it's over within about 3 rounds). This is the case for most of the boss monsters that do have a second wind (not every boss has them) - depending on your skills, level and weakness of the boss (yes, they have weaknesses that are pretty apparent), you can whittle them down pretty fast.
That said, it helps that the game is quite easy to cheese because it gives you attack items that you can use forever at no cost, but that usually have elemental affinities and do decent damage. This means that when not healing, someone can lay on the hurt by targetting the boss weakness with an attack item that can be spammed all battle... and some of them are quite strong.
Well, to be fair it was the first game in the series and I think Capcom's first RPG (maybe?), so... They did learn better (the rest of the series didn't have this gimmick.)
In the game itself it is pretty well explained and it's basically just treated like a second, weaker form.
In the game itself it is pretty well explained and it's basically just treated like a second, weaker form.
author=Rhymeauthor=MilenninThat uncertainty is thrill to some players.
Talking about traditional RPGs: I don't see how not having a health bar could ever be a good, with a few exceptions:
1. Game is incredibly easy/casual, so it doesn't matter, anyway.
2. Game has different graphics for each monster, depending on how hurt they are.
I hate not seeing enemy health bars because I won't know how much health the enemy has left. Against regular encounters it doesn't matter as much, but against bosses it's the worst.
Not knowing the boss's health makes fights boring because you're just playing it safe until the boss finally dies. When you can see the boss HP you can start planning ahead and take risks once you see the boss is close to dying. It can also help defending against a boss when you know it has certain enrage points (75/50/25% HP).
When you die against a monster that doesn't show an HP bar you don't actually know how close you got to beating it, so you don't know if you were playing badly or were simply underlevelled/geared. When you do see the monster's HP bar and die against it, you can make a much better guess about what might've gone wrong. It's also much more motivating to retry a boss that you managed to bring down to a sliver of HP than being left in the dark about its HP.
I still think that there are better ways to create that uncertainty without hiding the HP bar. Hell, I think a random encounter system, enemy types that surprise your with certain status effects, and enemies/bosses with less-than-obvious weaknesses do the job of creating uncertainty much better. Why bother?
Eh, I think an HP bar ain't really necessary. It's all about taste. Frankly, they alright but I'm not gonna pitch a fit if there isn't one, or call it bad game design. It's like being annoyed that descriptions for items don't delve into world lore or being angry that your face isn't shown in the battle screen. It's just a design choice and not one you have to adhere to.
I feel having health indicators are important for battle systems that require more strategy; however, I prefer to keep health bars hidden for boss fights. For bosses it felt like having the bar there did remove some of the tension, but ultimately for me the game's mechanics dictate their necessity.
The idea of displaying them after beating the enemy once is interesting.
The idea of displaying them after beating the enemy once is interesting.
I use health bars. I like them and they are good. The player can see every enemy's health bar (although the health bar may not coincide with their HP). I can even use them as a tool for fights. One enemy has two health pools where the first acts like a shield and dies when its second pool runs out. The enemy can't attack when it loses its shields but after some downtime it'll refill its shield health and get back in the fight. The health bar only shows the first health pool so the idea is to surprise the player when its hp runs out, doesn't die, and two turns later completely refills. Maybe it'll spice up the fight.
It can also make other mechanics work better like facing two bosses you need to kill near simultaneously (doing that and having to spend actions or even time seeing what the boss' hp is is a great way to make that mechanic a chore).
There's simpler stuff too just to help convey the experience like the final boss SENATOR 200% HEALTH. There's also my favorite:
Failing knowing how close you were to success is great.
It can also make other mechanics work better like facing two bosses you need to kill near simultaneously (doing that and having to spend actions or even time seeing what the boss' hp is is a great way to make that mechanic a chore).
There's simpler stuff too just to help convey the experience like the final boss SENATOR 200% HEALTH. There's also my favorite:
Failing knowing how close you were to success is great.
LightningLord2
230
author=GreatRedSpirit
Failing knowing how close you were to success is great.
Not just being close, but also noticing how you progress.
I like the implementation of a health bar to be shown only when needed (either highlighting the target or the target taking damage), but I don't mind constant enemy HP bars - after all, don't you see your party's health bars all the time?
But I do like it when the boss has a long HP bar filling the top of the screen - it helps signifying their importance.
The health bar is a game-world representation of a person or thing's condition, but in real life, you'd be able to see when a monster or opponent is getting worn down by attacks. So, game-wise, there's still room for improvisation. You don't need to connect the health bar explicitly to a number, like remaining HP. You can employ some other kind of visual cue that your party is making effective choices.
It could be something like a condition bar, or condition sphere, or what-have-you. This way, you get the opportunity to have bosses have better apparent control over their condition. How about a condition cue that reveals weaknesses—A reaction to something the monster is afraid of? Or a condition cue that appears rock solid, except under certain circumstances, where it can sharply decrease, say, as the boss needs to catch a breather.
All a health bar does is say how far along a player is to a goal. But it can be more, without being so crass in its presentation.
Reminds me of how in Breath of Fire II, when you talked to people, they had a dragon gem along the border of the text message box that was a color based on that person's affinity towards the party. Imagine that, during a battle.
It could be something like a condition bar, or condition sphere, or what-have-you. This way, you get the opportunity to have bosses have better apparent control over their condition. How about a condition cue that reveals weaknesses—A reaction to something the monster is afraid of? Or a condition cue that appears rock solid, except under certain circumstances, where it can sharply decrease, say, as the boss needs to catch a breather.
All a health bar does is say how far along a player is to a goal. But it can be more, without being so crass in its presentation.
Reminds me of how in Breath of Fire II, when you talked to people, they had a dragon gem along the border of the text message box that was a color based on that person's affinity towards the party. Imagine that, during a battle.
Gredge109
4151
author=Sated
Of all the things I thought people could have a strong opinion about, this was not one of them...
Yeah after reading over this topic, I feel the same way.
After thinking about it, I personally don't see the need for an enemy health bar. I can't look at one RPG I've ever played where I thought it mattered. People seem to be talking a lot about wanting an "indication", that is, they want an indication for when the boss is low on health. Thing is indication doesn't necessarily need to be a health bar (though as I said earlier I don't mind them). It can be, but it doesn't need to be. For regular enemies, I don't need a bar to see that a goblin drops in roughly two hits. For bosses, I use abilities to give the players indications.
Say the enemy is low on health, you can have them use different attacks. For one enemy I may have them use "panic attack" when their health is low, which has the enemy's regular attack strike twice, but is wildly inaccurate. There's also a change to the attack animation to tell the player "this isn't their normal attack, something is different", and the player is clever enough to realize this without me needing to give them a health bar.
Another enemy I may have use a "play dead" ability where they pretend they're dead for a couple rounds (even though they're obviously not) and evade all attacks until they're finished. Or you could indicate that something is about to happen: "Boss1 doubles over and starts to glow!" Then in the next round they can heal or enrage or whatever. You can even make states that activate at a certain health percentage which don't do anything other than give a status message like "Boss1 looks fizzled out" or "Boss1 stands back up!"
You can have enemies kneel when they're injured. "Boss1 kneels to recover!" And then have them recover health if the players don't finish them off. Say an enemy normally casts the spell "Scorcher", you can have them cast a variation of the spell called "Desperate Scorcher". There's so many different ways to go about this that you can never run out of ideas for your game.
Need to have a player drop two bosses around the same time? "Boss1 has fallen!", or "Boss1 is trying to regain balance!" then make that boss immune to attacks temporarily. The player will understand it means they likely have a couple rounds to finish off the other guy. Wait too long, and Boss1 is back on his feet and uses a powerful heal on himself and Boss2. Sometimes you can telegraph this by having it happen early in the fight to prepare the player for this later in the fight. For example, a boss kneels early on, then recovers himself and his ally; later on in the fight the boss will kneel when his health is low and you know you have to wipe out the other guy before he recovers.
Strange to see this going so strong.
As other gameplay elements and design decisions - the variations have different effects and can be enhancing or hurting your game.
Getting to know or analyzing the enemy can show off progress, and needing to learn how to efficiently fight enemies can be fun.
Blowing strong attacks into nothing, or when they are not needed is annoying. When you need to be precise, or strongly conserve mana, it can be a great help to have health bars if not exact numbers. Many dungeon crawlers use this for that reason - and tactical RPG as we already mentioned.
For traditional RPG or strong party building the analysis method can go well, or either of them depending on which.
And I can't believe nobody mentioned monster hunter yet - action rpg, no health bars whatsoever, and it works. Very well, at that. It allows you to focus on the actual combat instead of keeping an eye on health bars, having them would be a distraction to be honest. It also pleays a lot with immersion (also having a lot of mining spots just there to use, no indications other than the visuals in the area), finding out and testing out weaknesses and possibilities, gauging your strength etc. There is no conservation, you go all out.
But then you can also buy info books on them (mostly for lore) and general elemental weaknesses, or body part weaknesses.
Generally, going for health bars seems like a safe bet. It may distract a bit, or feel less immersive, but it will hardly harm the fun in it. I think in the majority of cases this is what works well.
However, they can be a pain with long fights, as they enhance the feeling of "this is going to take forever" - which is why you have multiple health bars in many action games' bosses - it feels and looks better and gives you a better grasp of the situation compared to one long-ass endless one.
If you have them, you plan and look forward to taking the enemy down. The HP being really high .. this is dragging on without any results or fun in that.
Not having them you concentrate more on fighting as long and as good as you can - for it could drag on longer or longer. Many games indicate with red or sth else when they fall below 30% or something (or start limping and having shorter relaxed / rage cycles in monster hunter), which gives you a call to "go all out", and know the battle is not going to be much longer.
Needlessly long fights will still feel like a pain tho if you are not putting much thought into fighting itself.
As other gameplay elements and design decisions - the variations have different effects and can be enhancing or hurting your game.
Getting to know or analyzing the enemy can show off progress, and needing to learn how to efficiently fight enemies can be fun.
Blowing strong attacks into nothing, or when they are not needed is annoying. When you need to be precise, or strongly conserve mana, it can be a great help to have health bars if not exact numbers. Many dungeon crawlers use this for that reason - and tactical RPG as we already mentioned.
For traditional RPG or strong party building the analysis method can go well, or either of them depending on which.
And I can't believe nobody mentioned monster hunter yet - action rpg, no health bars whatsoever, and it works. Very well, at that. It allows you to focus on the actual combat instead of keeping an eye on health bars, having them would be a distraction to be honest. It also pleays a lot with immersion (also having a lot of mining spots just there to use, no indications other than the visuals in the area), finding out and testing out weaknesses and possibilities, gauging your strength etc. There is no conservation, you go all out.
But then you can also buy info books on them (mostly for lore) and general elemental weaknesses, or body part weaknesses.
Generally, going for health bars seems like a safe bet. It may distract a bit, or feel less immersive, but it will hardly harm the fun in it. I think in the majority of cases this is what works well.
However, they can be a pain with long fights, as they enhance the feeling of "this is going to take forever" - which is why you have multiple health bars in many action games' bosses - it feels and looks better and gives you a better grasp of the situation compared to one long-ass endless one.
If you have them, you plan and look forward to taking the enemy down. The HP being really high .. this is dragging on without any results or fun in that.
Not having them you concentrate more on fighting as long and as good as you can - for it could drag on longer or longer. Many games indicate with red or sth else when they fall below 30% or something (or start limping and having shorter relaxed / rage cycles in monster hunter), which gives you a call to "go all out", and know the battle is not going to be much longer.
Needlessly long fights will still feel like a pain tho if you are not putting much thought into fighting itself.
