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DISCRIMINATION WITHIN THE NARRATIVE
Posts
pianotm
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CloseRight, I don't want to self-censor. The character in question is a crazy cult follower who picks a fight with the protagonist and then gets her ass handed to her. Then in true horror story-cult lunatic fashion, she starts shouting foul epitaphs at the protagonist, calls her some not very nice names. I wrote the full lines out, then took them out, then put them back in, but there was that word, and me being a man writing this story, I couldn't help but wonder if a number of people going to completely forget the context as soon as they saw the word. Any substitute line I used sounded like pretty generic stuff, I wanted the insult to be really nasty. I wanted you to get the feeling that if this person's saliva got on you, it'd burn your skin. But I've seen arguments where people say the context doesn't matter. Just saying the word is bad. People have had their reputations ruined over it. People have lost their careers over it. The last thing I wanted was to have one of the reactionaries that lurks on this site play the game, see the word, and then start trouble over it, because I have no idea how anyone might construe it. So I left the line as is and blotted the word.
Lovely place for a page break, don't you think?
Lovely place for a page break, don't you think?
Kindredz
7
I'm currently rewriting Forgotten Majesty, a game demo that I made years ago. It was one of the few games that starred black/brown characters but discrimination was pretty non-existent. In the new narrative, while outright discrimination still isn't a part of that world, there is definitely what I would term misunderstanding. The main character's family and their people gain their abilities through a bond that they have with the land that they walk upon. Touching the ground gives them vitality, health, and power. People in other parts of the world use artificial means to gain similar effects...so when the main character visits the mainland for the first time, many people look at him like "Why aren't you wearing shoes? Oh...you're one of them. Is it true that you can heal without medicine?" I didn't want to make the game with black people totally about racism but culture-clashing is touched upon in a thoughtful way.
LightningLord2
230
author=Kindredz
I'm currently rewriting Forgotten Majesty, a game demo that I made years ago. It was one of the few games that starred black/brown characters but discrimination was pretty non-existent. In the new narrative, while outright discrimination still isn't a part of that world, there is definitely what I would term misunderstanding. The main character's family and their people gain their abilities through a bond that they have with the land that they walk upon. Touching the ground gives them vitality, health, and power. People in other parts of the world use artificial means to gain similar effects...so when the main character visits the mainland for the first time, many people look at him like "Why aren't you wearing shoes? Oh...you're one of them. Is it true that you can heal without medicine?" I didn't want to make the game with black people totally about racism but culture-clashing is touched upon in a thoughtful way.
It would not really be about discrimination since from what you've said, neither one of the cultures is in a position of power above the other. It's what makes the difference between cultural conflict and actual racism.
Jeroen_Sol
Nothing reveals Humanity so well as the games it plays. A game of betrayal, where the most suspicious person is brutally murdered? How savage.
3885
Power has nothing to do with it, though.
"Actual", (by which I guess you mean institutionalized) discrimination is certainly more harmful because there's an element of power involved, but an element of power is not necessary for something to be discriminatory.
Similarly, racism is dangerous when an element of power is introduced, but doesn't cease to be racism when that element is removed.
"Actual", (by which I guess you mean institutionalized) discrimination is certainly more harmful because there's an element of power involved, but an element of power is not necessary for something to be discriminatory.
Similarly, racism is dangerous when an element of power is introduced, but doesn't cease to be racism when that element is removed.
LightningLord2
230
author=Jeroen_Sol
Power has nothing to do with it, though.
"Actual", (by which I guess you mean institutionalized) discrimination is certainly more harmful because there's an element of power involved, but an element of power is not necessary for something to be discriminatory.
Similarly, racism is dangerous when an element of power is introduced, but doesn't seize to be racism when that element is removed.
Depends on whether you apply it to an individual or a society. Either way, privilege greatly changes the effect of the discrimination.
@Kindredz: Regardless of your main themes, discrimination as a topic will probably come up sooner or later.
Rine
1378
Edited to add hides.
Hoo boy, this is going to be a long one. Sorry if it doesn't follow directly from any particular topic brought up, but I'm basically going to post my thoughts on discrimination in general, why it happens, and then referring to some games where it is brought up well without being cheesy.
Real world stuff.
As a note, I won't be discussing racism at all. Discrimination != Racism. Discrimination is the removal of rights and privileges from a group that expresses a certain trait that fits them in that group. Obviously, racism has led to and leads to discrimination in the past and present, but racism is not a prerequisite for discrimination, nor is homophobia, or any similar issues.
In the real world context, discrimination serves two purposes. One being the goal of preserving a privileged status of an established or powered group. Jim Crow laws in the Southern US served this purpose, to keep a privileged status of whites in those areas. This follows from the slavery that preceded it, which was supported even by poor whites who would never have a chance to own slaves. Why? Because even if they didn't directly profit, they felt superior to another group, and thus weren't the worst off in their positions. Jim Crow laws kept this up, and let's be fair, a lot of racism nowadays in the US stems from not wanting to be at the bottom of the totem pole. Tends to be a bad habit amongst humans to want to make sure someone has it worse than you. The other it serves is to separate a group from others, so they do not interact. This is more iffy on the morality of it, as in the modern day, we see discrimination all the time. I guarantee almost anyone you ask will answer "Discrimination is bad", but then you ask them if people with obvious tattoos can be discriminated against for job purposes, and I'm sure some will come up with times when that is ok. We generally agree it is ok with employers to discriminate against people as long as it is not because of certain reasons. Tattoos are ok to discriminate against, ethnicities aren't, in the modern context. A past example would be leper colonies, and they could easily be seen as reasonable discrimination. At the time, the medical community at the time, as it existed, though leprosy was a communicable disease that could not be cured. It stood to reason for people at the time that these people should be seperated into colonies so they could avoid spreading the disease. While nowadays we know it is curable and what causes it, at the time that was entirely reasonable discrimination.
Media
Now, two examples of media where I think discrimination is addressed well, and show how we can use it effectively without overwhelming the story. In general though, a lot of media tends to use discrimination as a quick way to make one side easy to hate. This is where I think X-men does it terribly at times...they use mutants as an analogue for racism/homophobia/etc, and thus have mutants getting attacked by mobs...but let's be fair, the reason lynch mobs existed in the south was because of the perception that certain people were infringing on a privileged position, not because they could set an entire town on fire. I really never find it plausible that people would decide 'Oh hey, there's this person with unknown superpowers who could kill us all, lets go curbstomp them'. The same thing with media who exchange human racism for discrimination against a species without fully explaining it, especially when the species being discriminated against has means of removing themselves from that society.
Mass Effect
In Mass Effect, they did an amazing job of writing a fully fleshed out sci-fi world, with lots of documentation on how many things in the world worked and aspects of the past and history. It was mostly optional to read, but it helped the world be fully fleshed out. First are the Korgan, who are a race of notoriously militaristic and aggressive reptilian beings. They are notably marginalized in galactic society, and generally thought of as deserving it. No point in the series plays that the Krogan really deserve to be treated as fluffy bunnies. There are good natured krogan you meet, though few, and two party members. However, the species deserves their reputation, given they waged war on the whole galaxy, destroyed their own planet with nuclear weapons, and the like. It is implied this is a predisposition in their race, as an Asari who has part of her genes affected by her Krogan parent is notably very aggressive in nature (and I think jokes about an urge to headbutt). They aren't shown as an evil species, but people are notably leery about having Krogan in places where you don't want to get headbutted. The other notable instance of discrimination is in the Asari species against Asari/Asari pairings. For those of you who don't know, the Asari in the universe are a mono-gendered race (who appear feminine to humans), and reproduce asexually by using another partner to add a mixer to their genes. In the modern asari society represented in the game world, children of two asari are generally treated poorly and have a lot of negative connotations. This is because as opposed to mixing with other species, asari/asari pairings have a chance to create a genetic defect that create a vampire-like individual. While one of the characters in game is a child of such a pairing, and mentions how she was treated, given the proclivity of such pairings to create such individuals, it is understandable the stigma that occurs.
Read Only Memories
More analogous to modern times is the game Read Only Memories. If you haven't played it, you should, it is an amazing story, with lots of fully realized characters and a well detailed world. The world of ROM is ours, just a few years in the future and a bit more cyber-punky. Cybernetics are a thing now, as are genetic therapies. The genetic therapies mentioned tend to involve applying animal genes to humans. Quite a few characters have notably had this done, given they sport animal ears, scales, etc. There are mentions of a legal act passed to prevent people over a certain amount of animal genes from breeding, and there are groups who invoke modern movements, that want to keep 'Humans human', and are against genetic modifications. When you deal with the group, mostly through their frontman, they aren't frothing lunatics, and the leader comes off as well reasoned and affable, if a bit smarmy. Other characters with cybernetics mention they oppose those groups mostly because they know who they're going to go after next. A fairly major character puts it in a lot of context, as she had to get treatment for cancer with shark genes. This left her looking 'like a creature from a horror movie', so she had further treatment so at least she would look pleasant (in game she is represented as a mostly humanoid fox-like woman), which put her over the genetic limit for breeding. The insurance company paying for her eggs to be preserved had them destroyed, and thus now she spends all her time (and considerable lawyer skills) fighting for rights of people who are genetically modified, and sometimes using her contacts in the ghetto-like communities they have to organize protests and riots. Read only memories is an amazing story, mostly because all of this fairly heavy stuff is in the background of the world. It doesn't relate to the main story too much, but the characters are well written so that when you ask this character about it (she generally comes off as a bitch whenever you talk to her), it informs on her character, as opposed to being just an info-dump.
Hoo boy, this is going to be a long one. Sorry if it doesn't follow directly from any particular topic brought up, but I'm basically going to post my thoughts on discrimination in general, why it happens, and then referring to some games where it is brought up well without being cheesy.
Real world stuff.
As a note, I won't be discussing racism at all. Discrimination != Racism. Discrimination is the removal of rights and privileges from a group that expresses a certain trait that fits them in that group. Obviously, racism has led to and leads to discrimination in the past and present, but racism is not a prerequisite for discrimination, nor is homophobia, or any similar issues.
In the real world context, discrimination serves two purposes. One being the goal of preserving a privileged status of an established or powered group. Jim Crow laws in the Southern US served this purpose, to keep a privileged status of whites in those areas. This follows from the slavery that preceded it, which was supported even by poor whites who would never have a chance to own slaves. Why? Because even if they didn't directly profit, they felt superior to another group, and thus weren't the worst off in their positions. Jim Crow laws kept this up, and let's be fair, a lot of racism nowadays in the US stems from not wanting to be at the bottom of the totem pole. Tends to be a bad habit amongst humans to want to make sure someone has it worse than you. The other it serves is to separate a group from others, so they do not interact. This is more iffy on the morality of it, as in the modern day, we see discrimination all the time. I guarantee almost anyone you ask will answer "Discrimination is bad", but then you ask them if people with obvious tattoos can be discriminated against for job purposes, and I'm sure some will come up with times when that is ok. We generally agree it is ok with employers to discriminate against people as long as it is not because of certain reasons. Tattoos are ok to discriminate against, ethnicities aren't, in the modern context. A past example would be leper colonies, and they could easily be seen as reasonable discrimination. At the time, the medical community at the time, as it existed, though leprosy was a communicable disease that could not be cured. It stood to reason for people at the time that these people should be seperated into colonies so they could avoid spreading the disease. While nowadays we know it is curable and what causes it, at the time that was entirely reasonable discrimination.
Media
Now, two examples of media where I think discrimination is addressed well, and show how we can use it effectively without overwhelming the story. In general though, a lot of media tends to use discrimination as a quick way to make one side easy to hate. This is where I think X-men does it terribly at times...they use mutants as an analogue for racism/homophobia/etc, and thus have mutants getting attacked by mobs...but let's be fair, the reason lynch mobs existed in the south was because of the perception that certain people were infringing on a privileged position, not because they could set an entire town on fire. I really never find it plausible that people would decide 'Oh hey, there's this person with unknown superpowers who could kill us all, lets go curbstomp them'. The same thing with media who exchange human racism for discrimination against a species without fully explaining it, especially when the species being discriminated against has means of removing themselves from that society.
Mass Effect
In Mass Effect, they did an amazing job of writing a fully fleshed out sci-fi world, with lots of documentation on how many things in the world worked and aspects of the past and history. It was mostly optional to read, but it helped the world be fully fleshed out. First are the Korgan, who are a race of notoriously militaristic and aggressive reptilian beings. They are notably marginalized in galactic society, and generally thought of as deserving it. No point in the series plays that the Krogan really deserve to be treated as fluffy bunnies. There are good natured krogan you meet, though few, and two party members. However, the species deserves their reputation, given they waged war on the whole galaxy, destroyed their own planet with nuclear weapons, and the like. It is implied this is a predisposition in their race, as an Asari who has part of her genes affected by her Krogan parent is notably very aggressive in nature (and I think jokes about an urge to headbutt). They aren't shown as an evil species, but people are notably leery about having Krogan in places where you don't want to get headbutted. The other notable instance of discrimination is in the Asari species against Asari/Asari pairings. For those of you who don't know, the Asari in the universe are a mono-gendered race (who appear feminine to humans), and reproduce asexually by using another partner to add a mixer to their genes. In the modern asari society represented in the game world, children of two asari are generally treated poorly and have a lot of negative connotations. This is because as opposed to mixing with other species, asari/asari pairings have a chance to create a genetic defect that create a vampire-like individual. While one of the characters in game is a child of such a pairing, and mentions how she was treated, given the proclivity of such pairings to create such individuals, it is understandable the stigma that occurs.
Read Only Memories
More analogous to modern times is the game Read Only Memories. If you haven't played it, you should, it is an amazing story, with lots of fully realized characters and a well detailed world. The world of ROM is ours, just a few years in the future and a bit more cyber-punky. Cybernetics are a thing now, as are genetic therapies. The genetic therapies mentioned tend to involve applying animal genes to humans. Quite a few characters have notably had this done, given they sport animal ears, scales, etc. There are mentions of a legal act passed to prevent people over a certain amount of animal genes from breeding, and there are groups who invoke modern movements, that want to keep 'Humans human', and are against genetic modifications. When you deal with the group, mostly through their frontman, they aren't frothing lunatics, and the leader comes off as well reasoned and affable, if a bit smarmy. Other characters with cybernetics mention they oppose those groups mostly because they know who they're going to go after next. A fairly major character puts it in a lot of context, as she had to get treatment for cancer with shark genes. This left her looking 'like a creature from a horror movie', so she had further treatment so at least she would look pleasant (in game she is represented as a mostly humanoid fox-like woman), which put her over the genetic limit for breeding. The insurance company paying for her eggs to be preserved had them destroyed, and thus now she spends all her time (and considerable lawyer skills) fighting for rights of people who are genetically modified, and sometimes using her contacts in the ghetto-like communities they have to organize protests and riots. Read only memories is an amazing story, mostly because all of this fairly heavy stuff is in the background of the world. It doesn't relate to the main story too much, but the characters are well written so that when you ask this character about it (she generally comes off as a bitch whenever you talk to her), it informs on her character, as opposed to being just an info-dump.
Aegix_Drakan
6037
Hmm, you know, it's kinda funny..,In my main setting, discrimination practically only exists in terms of hating other nations, and the worship of one god in particular.
Like, sexism is barely enough to register in that setting, as due to the tumultuous history of the world, the nations that enforced such a thing all went the way of the dodo, while the cultures that went "We honestly don't give a shit who you are, as long as you can do the job" were more likely to survive. Even now that the world has settled down considerably, that attitude has carried over.
And as for orientation, it basically falls under the same umbrella, no one really cares all that much (outside of nobles who are pressured to continue the family line). The people of the past were too preoccupied with their short hard lives so they found happiness wherever they could.
Racism is non-existant, as virtually everyone is one race anyway, with a (planned but not quite in the setting just yet) darker skinned desert race that, while viewed with some minor suspicion, are generally not discriminated against because hot DAMN do they have amazing trade goods. They don't show up all that often (they stick to their desert continent), but when they do show up people go "Oh hey, they Dusters are in town. What did they bring this time?"
So outside of no one trusting the Dragons (and why would they?), and everyone hating on the Goblins (who are basically "Ants with weapons"), discrimination mostly boils down to hating other nations, and no one liking the few people who are weird or creepy enough to worship the god of Pain.
Any other discrimination is for practical or semi-valid reasons like Necromancy being banned because holy shit that's nasty magic, or the local Holy Knight-Esque faction hating Summoners (they view it as stealing creatures from the realms of the Gods)
*shrug* It's not like I especially planned it this way, but it just sorta wound up this way and it felt kinda natural.
Wait, really? Holy crap. I loved the hell out of that game, but I never saw anything close to that conversation. :o I guess accidentally mistaking her for Wildcat at the start must have REALLY screwed me over in terms of getting to know her.
I mean...WOW, that's really damn tragic.
Like, sexism is barely enough to register in that setting, as due to the tumultuous history of the world, the nations that enforced such a thing all went the way of the dodo, while the cultures that went "We honestly don't give a shit who you are, as long as you can do the job" were more likely to survive. Even now that the world has settled down considerably, that attitude has carried over.
And as for orientation, it basically falls under the same umbrella, no one really cares all that much (outside of nobles who are pressured to continue the family line). The people of the past were too preoccupied with their short hard lives so they found happiness wherever they could.
Racism is non-existant, as virtually everyone is one race anyway, with a (planned but not quite in the setting just yet) darker skinned desert race that, while viewed with some minor suspicion, are generally not discriminated against because hot DAMN do they have amazing trade goods. They don't show up all that often (they stick to their desert continent), but when they do show up people go "Oh hey, they Dusters are in town. What did they bring this time?"
So outside of no one trusting the Dragons (and why would they?), and everyone hating on the Goblins (who are basically "Ants with weapons"), discrimination mostly boils down to hating other nations, and no one liking the few people who are weird or creepy enough to worship the god of Pain.
Any other discrimination is for practical or semi-valid reasons like Necromancy being banned because holy shit that's nasty magic, or the local Holy Knight-Esque faction hating Summoners (they view it as stealing creatures from the realms of the Gods)
*shrug* It's not like I especially planned it this way, but it just sorta wound up this way and it felt kinda natural.
author=Rine
Read Only MemoriesA fairly major character puts it in a lot of context, as she had to get treatment for cancer with shark genes. This left her looking 'like a creature from a horror movie', so she had further treatment so at least she would look pleasant (in game she is represented as a mostly humanoid fox-like woman), which put her over the genetic limit for breeding. The insurance company paying for her eggs to be preserved had them destroyed
Wait, really? Holy crap. I loved the hell out of that game, but I never saw anything close to that conversation. :o I guess accidentally mistaking her for Wildcat at the start must have REALLY screwed me over in terms of getting to know her.
I mean...WOW, that's really damn tragic.
LightningLord2
230
author=Aegix_Drakan
Racism is non-existant, as virtually everyone is one race anyway, with a (planned but not quite in the setting just yet) darker skinned desert race that, while viewed with some minor suspicion, are generally not discriminated against because hot DAMN do they have amazing trade goods. They don't show up all that often (they stick to their desert continent), but when they do show up people go "Oh hey, they Dusters are in town. What did they bring this time?"
This is still an example for prejudice - seeing any of the desert folks makes people excited because they think they have valuable trading goods.
Also, while you could talk about typical tropes associated with fantasy races, I don't think there's much about discrimination left to say.
I haven't dug much into worldbuilding yet myself, the only noteworthy thing that could lead to prejudices and such is elemental affinities found in my characters (with me wondering how far I should take it).
Rine
1378
@Aegix: I think you have to mistake her, I did as well, but if you choose the right options when you have to talk to her later you can get the full story out of her. Its definitely tied into the achievement for befriending her, which I snagged. Essentially had a perfect 'good guy' run through my first time, so it'll kill me to do alternate runs where I'm a dick :P
@LL2: Just make sure there are reasons for their prejudices in the game. If no one can tell your affinity it kinda makes it feel silly and arbitrary. Tribalism is a thing, we tend to want to stick close to people who are similar to our own genetics and make sure those propagate, but if affinity is an RNG at birth, there's really no reason for them to hate one group over another.
@LL2: Just make sure there are reasons for their prejudices in the game. If no one can tell your affinity it kinda makes it feel silly and arbitrary. Tribalism is a thing, we tend to want to stick close to people who are similar to our own genetics and make sure those propagate, but if affinity is an RNG at birth, there's really no reason for them to hate one group over another.
Desertopa
775
I'm going to second AlterEgo here. I think it's generally a mistake to treat character flaws as something that must be corrected over the course of a narrative, or have a spotlight shone on them calling attention to how wrong they are, and I think it's better to treat bigotry according to the same standards, rather than putting it in a class of its own.
In fact, because so many audience members expect authors to grant it special status, I think those strong expectations can give an author interesting material to work with. It's one of the reasons Deliberate Values Dissonance can throw audiences for such a loop.
You can also play off audience expectations by, say, creating a conflict between species, where one species deeply mistrusts the other, and presumes them to be inherently evil and dangerous, so that the audience will expect some kind of pat message on tolerance and understanding, and then subvert that by showing that the other species really is inherently dangerous and has values utterly incompatible with human society. Lampshade the fact that the protagonists erred by trying to generalize lessons about tolerance and understanding between humans, who're all fundamentally very similar in the grand scheme of things, to an entirely different species with completely different psychology.
That's just one possibility. I think that there are a lot of other interesting ways you could play around with themes of tolerance and bias, specifically because audience members so strongly expect writers to retread the same lessons over and over.
In fact, because so many audience members expect authors to grant it special status, I think those strong expectations can give an author interesting material to work with. It's one of the reasons Deliberate Values Dissonance can throw audiences for such a loop.
You can also play off audience expectations by, say, creating a conflict between species, where one species deeply mistrusts the other, and presumes them to be inherently evil and dangerous, so that the audience will expect some kind of pat message on tolerance and understanding, and then subvert that by showing that the other species really is inherently dangerous and has values utterly incompatible with human society. Lampshade the fact that the protagonists erred by trying to generalize lessons about tolerance and understanding between humans, who're all fundamentally very similar in the grand scheme of things, to an entirely different species with completely different psychology.
That's just one possibility. I think that there are a lot of other interesting ways you could play around with themes of tolerance and bias, specifically because audience members so strongly expect writers to retread the same lessons over and over.
I agree that bad guys or evil/racist/whatever people shouldn't always be shown the error of their ways in media
They can be killed if you want, but changes of heart in that sense aren't so common or a realistic standard.
Just let some pieces of shit be just that and let the player/viewer be the one to say what's what, leave the person with something to think about themselves or talk about instead of wrapping it in a nice big bow for them.
They can be killed if you want, but changes of heart in that sense aren't so common or a realistic standard.
Just let some pieces of shit be just that and let the player/viewer be the one to say what's what, leave the person with something to think about themselves or talk about instead of wrapping it in a nice big bow for them.
Allowing the character to speak up about another characters racism/discrimination in place of ever addressing it otherwise is an interesting thought. Is the fact that flaw may never be addressed within the narrative without player input make the moral weaker or stronger?
Maybe that plays further into the realm of how each individual should treat instances of discrimination though. Either way, I don't think I have ever seen it!
It seems to me that it is not necessary to address discrimination in games if you don't want to, but making a sympathetic character that's never called out for their flaw is going to add to the overflowing media tendency to do this. And, while it doesn't explicitly state that it's okay alone, adds to the bigger picture that generally seems to say it's okay to be discriminatory - at least if it is subtle or not intentional.
Maybe that plays further into the realm of how each individual should treat instances of discrimination though. Either way, I don't think I have ever seen it!
It seems to me that it is not necessary to address discrimination in games if you don't want to, but making a sympathetic character that's never called out for their flaw is going to add to the overflowing media tendency to do this. And, while it doesn't explicitly state that it's okay alone, adds to the bigger picture that generally seems to say it's okay to be discriminatory - at least if it is subtle or not intentional.
emmych
817
tbh i don't really like writing stories about discrimination because
a) if i'm talking about certain topics, like race, it's probably Weird for me as a white person to write an impassioned story about what it feels like to be a POC and experience racism when i have never experienced that in my life (like legit, why would i want to tell that story so bad), and
b) when it comes to discrimination i actually face irl, i don't usually feel like spending my time creating something getting upset about real bullshit i have to deal with. i recognize the place and value of stories that folks like me will tell about their experiences (case and point: Dorian from DA:I being written by a gay man and having part of his plot revolve around Fantasy Conversion Therapy), but maaan i just don't wanna do it? if i'm gonna tackle a serious topic, i'd rather it not be "here have a collection of characters you're all supposed to empathize with. now let's make one of them be a blatant homophobe so the gay character can get Uncomf but ultimately teach the homophobe to not be homophobic."
i just wanna make a game about underrepresented people being excellent, man. if you wanna write a v personal story, go for it! it can be real cathartic (THE LAST ENCOUNTER IN FREE SPIRITS IS BASICALLY MY MOMMA ISSUES) and can do some real cool things for other folks who share that experience/teach people who want to learn, but for the most part, nah. count me out.
I realize this doesn't appear to actually answer your "but how to do this" question, but it does! My answer is "don't bother, write about something nicer than systemic oppression unless that's the point of the story" which is not the "correct" response here, but it is the stance I usually take.
a) if i'm talking about certain topics, like race, it's probably Weird for me as a white person to write an impassioned story about what it feels like to be a POC and experience racism when i have never experienced that in my life (like legit, why would i want to tell that story so bad), and
b) when it comes to discrimination i actually face irl, i don't usually feel like spending my time creating something getting upset about real bullshit i have to deal with. i recognize the place and value of stories that folks like me will tell about their experiences (case and point: Dorian from DA:I being written by a gay man and having part of his plot revolve around Fantasy Conversion Therapy), but maaan i just don't wanna do it? if i'm gonna tackle a serious topic, i'd rather it not be "here have a collection of characters you're all supposed to empathize with. now let's make one of them be a blatant homophobe so the gay character can get Uncomf but ultimately teach the homophobe to not be homophobic."
i just wanna make a game about underrepresented people being excellent, man. if you wanna write a v personal story, go for it! it can be real cathartic (THE LAST ENCOUNTER IN FREE SPIRITS IS BASICALLY MY MOMMA ISSUES) and can do some real cool things for other folks who share that experience/teach people who want to learn, but for the most part, nah. count me out.
I realize this doesn't appear to actually answer your "but how to do this" question, but it does! My answer is "don't bother, write about something nicer than systemic oppression unless that's the point of the story" which is not the "correct" response here, but it is the stance I usually take.
@Rine RE the x-men thing:
Non-powered mutants were targeted too - whose only 'powers' were looking different or having a sense that was a bit better than average. You know, having green skin or being able to see in the dark or having a good sense of smell and stuff like that. Those people were also thrown into slave camps, tortured, killed and generally treated like the scum of the earth along with the other mutants who did have powers that might have rocked the heavens a bit.
The thing is, it wasn't like those people just came out of nowhere - they were born normal people whose powers awoke in their teens. So basically the mobs started chasing after kids and killing/enslaving/torturing them. Frankly it's no wonder there were mutants who lashed back, which caused even bigger issues because then people would use that as a reason to kill/enslave/torture even more.
I mean, when you wake up one day and suddenly have your body turning into slime on you, the last thing that's going to help you out is suddenly being labelled as a freak, monster and less-than-human by a group of assholes who want to kill/hurt/use you. There's a lot more slime kids than there are super-powered mutants around
Hell, the populace of the world have no fucking problem with super hero groups at all! It's not about the powers because there are a ton of super powered beings who are accepted by society completely! It's about being a mutant. Fantastic 4, Avengers, Force Works, Earth Force, Captain Britain, Defenders - just a few teams of super-powered heroes who do not have mutants among them but are considered heroes by the normal populace. Hell, there are event some teams that have mutants on them but still thought of as heroes, but when those characters are by themselves they are still descriminated against because, get this, they are mutants!
:shock gasp:
Eh, I think it works.
Non-powered mutants were targeted too - whose only 'powers' were looking different or having a sense that was a bit better than average. You know, having green skin or being able to see in the dark or having a good sense of smell and stuff like that. Those people were also thrown into slave camps, tortured, killed and generally treated like the scum of the earth along with the other mutants who did have powers that might have rocked the heavens a bit.
The thing is, it wasn't like those people just came out of nowhere - they were born normal people whose powers awoke in their teens. So basically the mobs started chasing after kids and killing/enslaving/torturing them. Frankly it's no wonder there were mutants who lashed back, which caused even bigger issues because then people would use that as a reason to kill/enslave/torture even more.
I mean, when you wake up one day and suddenly have your body turning into slime on you, the last thing that's going to help you out is suddenly being labelled as a freak, monster and less-than-human by a group of assholes who want to kill/hurt/use you. There's a lot more slime kids than there are super-powered mutants around
Hell, the populace of the world have no fucking problem with super hero groups at all! It's not about the powers because there are a ton of super powered beings who are accepted by society completely! It's about being a mutant. Fantastic 4, Avengers, Force Works, Earth Force, Captain Britain, Defenders - just a few teams of super-powered heroes who do not have mutants among them but are considered heroes by the normal populace. Hell, there are event some teams that have mutants on them but still thought of as heroes, but when those characters are by themselves they are still descriminated against because, get this, they are mutants!
:shock gasp:
Eh, I think it works.
LightningLord2
230
author=Liberty
@Rine RE the x-men thing:
Non-powered mutants were targeted too - whose only 'powers' were looking different or having a sense that was a bit better than average. You know, having green skin or being able to see in the dark or having a good sense of smell and stuff like that. Those people were also thrown into slave camps, tortured, killed and generally treated like the scum of the earth along with the other mutants who did have powers that might have rocked the heavens a bit.
The thing is, it wasn't like those people just came out of nowhere - they were born normal people whose powers awoke in their teens. So basically the mobs started chasing after kids and killing/enslaving/torturing them. Frankly it's no wonder there were mutants who lashed back, which caused even bigger issues because then people would use that as a reason to kill/enslave/torture even more.
I mean, when you wake up one day and suddenly have your body turning into slime on you, the last thing that's going to help you out is suddenly being labelled as a freak, monster and less-than-human by a group of assholes who want to kill/hurt/use you. There's a lot more slime kids than there are super-powered mutants around
Hell, the populace of the world have no fucking problem with super hero groups at all! It's not about the powers because there are a ton of super powered beings who are accepted by society completely! It's about being a mutant. Fantastic 4, Avengers, Force Works, Earth Force, Captain Britain, Defenders - just a few teams of super-powered heroes who do not have mutants among them but are considered heroes by the normal populace. Hell, there are event some teams that have mutants on them but still thought of as heroes, but when those characters are by themselves they are still descriminated against because, get this, they are mutants!
:shock gasp:
Eh, I think it works.
From what I've got, the general conflict in the X-Men goes three ways - The mutant hunters of mankind consider all people with the X Gene a threat that needs to be eliminated (as the powers are often very hard to control). Professor X of the university, although often regarded as the most powerful mutant, tries to help them control themselves so they can live normal lives with humans. Magneto, head of the Brotherhood, isn't having any of that - he sees mutants as the superior species who should rule above the normal civilians (pretty ironic considering he's a jew who escaped from a concentration camp).
That's a very simplified version - it gets very complicated when other players come into it and mess around. There are times that Magneto and Charles have worked together. There was a period where Magneto actually ran the school. There are times certain members broke away from the school because they lost trust in Charles/didn't like the way he handled things. There are politicians who have tried to use mutants for their own goals, some who have supported integration between mutants and humans, some who are of the school of "it can be trained out of them", some of the school of "kill 'em all" and various shades in-between, who have come in and out of power. There are enemies that force the X-men to look at their own ideals and find them wanting and enemies that make them feel like their ideals are really the only truly balanced ones. And that's without going into the personal stories of the characters or the ways different countries around the world treat mutants differently (they're not all as accepting/unaccepting as each other). Hell, the way mutants treat each other differs a lot too.
Like real life~ It's not just "this good, this bad". There have been heart-wrenching stories where the team has ran across mutants (remember, usually it's early teens when powers kick in) whose powers are uncontrollable and kill or hurt others on a grand scale - times that they're the ones who have to step in to protect normal humans because some kid got the bad luck draw and is radioactive, killing everything around them. Sometimes this means having to lock the kid away, sometimes it means having to put an end to their misery.
And that's all without mixing in other super-powered people who come by those powers in various ways. Or mixing in the 'Gods', magics, aliens and super technology that pops up. Oh, and the alternate universes and time travelling that also occurs every now and then. X3
It's a hell of a lot more convoluted and shades of grey than "Mutants bad, humans good."
Like real life~ It's not just "this good, this bad". There have been heart-wrenching stories where the team has ran across mutants (remember, usually it's early teens when powers kick in) whose powers are uncontrollable and kill or hurt others on a grand scale - times that they're the ones who have to step in to protect normal humans because some kid got the bad luck draw and is radioactive, killing everything around them. Sometimes this means having to lock the kid away, sometimes it means having to put an end to their misery.
And that's all without mixing in other super-powered people who come by those powers in various ways. Or mixing in the 'Gods', magics, aliens and super technology that pops up. Oh, and the alternate universes and time travelling that also occurs every now and then. X3
It's a hell of a lot more convoluted and shades of grey than "Mutants bad, humans good."
LightningLord2
230
Agreed 100%.
As for my own favourite example of a discrimination-focused narrative would be the civil war in Skyrim:
The main conflict there is between the Imperial Legion and the Stormcloaks. The Legion is currently the force in power, seeking to have a unified empire to stand against the Dominion (and also get rid of the Thalmor, which everybody hates). However, they're strongly authoritary, forbidding the worship of Talos (punishable by death) and generally being very hostile towards anyone who might be affliated with Ulfric. The stormcloaks fight against this injustice, as they believe that Skyrim should be the home of the Nords. Ulfric Stormcloak isn't exactly a saint, either - he incited the whole war by murdering High King Torygg to gain the power to do so (it is implied that Torygg would have possibly sympathized with the Stormcloaks), and it is likely that he won't be any fairer if he were to rule Skyrim over Tullius.
As for my own favourite example of a discrimination-focused narrative would be the civil war in Skyrim:
The main conflict there is between the Imperial Legion and the Stormcloaks. The Legion is currently the force in power, seeking to have a unified empire to stand against the Dominion (and also get rid of the Thalmor, which everybody hates). However, they're strongly authoritary, forbidding the worship of Talos (punishable by death) and generally being very hostile towards anyone who might be affliated with Ulfric. The stormcloaks fight against this injustice, as they believe that Skyrim should be the home of the Nords. Ulfric Stormcloak isn't exactly a saint, either - he incited the whole war by murdering High King Torygg to gain the power to do so (it is implied that Torygg would have possibly sympathized with the Stormcloaks), and it is likely that he won't be any fairer if he were to rule Skyrim over Tullius.
Desertopa
775
author=emmych
tbh i don't really like writing stories about discrimination because
a) if i'm talking about certain topics, like race, it's probably Weird for me as a white person to write an impassioned story about what it feels like to be a POC and experience racism when i have never experienced that in my life (like legit, why would i want to tell that story so bad), and
b) when it comes to discrimination i actually face irl, i don't usually feel like spending my time creating something getting upset about real bullshit i have to deal with. i recognize the place and value of stories that folks like me will tell about their experiences (case and point: Dorian from DA:I being written by a gay man and having part of his plot revolve around Fantasy Conversion Therapy), but maaan i just don't wanna do it? if i'm gonna tackle a serious topic, i'd rather it not be "here have a collection of characters you're all supposed to empathize with. now let's make one of them be a blatant homophobe so the gay character can get Uncomf but ultimately teach the homophobe to not be homophobic."
i just wanna make a game about underrepresented people being excellent, man. if you wanna write a v personal story, go for it! it can be real cathartic (THE LAST ENCOUNTER IN FREE SPIRITS IS BASICALLY MY MOMMA ISSUES) and can do some real cool things for other folks who share that experience/teach people who want to learn, but for the most part, nah. count me out.
I realize this doesn't appear to actually answer your "but how to do this" question, but it does! My answer is "don't bother, write about something nicer than systemic oppression unless that's the point of the story" which is not the "correct" response here, but it is the stance I usually take.
I think it's good to be able to incorporate elements of prejudice or discrimination into a narrative without feeling compelled to make the story about those things. They're significant elements of human experience, and as a writer I prefer to be able to draw on them whenever it seems narratively appropriate. Prejudice isn't pleasant, but neither is violence, and lots of stories are made more interesting by the inclusion of violence, even if they're not stories about violence.
As far as writing about things you haven't experienced, I think it's perfectly appropriate to draw on the experiences of others. If you want to preach or moralize to your audience, people will tend to tolerate it more if you have the right credentials, but I don't really want to do those things in the first place.
emmych
817
@Desertopa: I don't like having discrimination as flavour in stories because that is literally my life already. Myself and most of the people I love cope with some flavour of everyday discrimination, and you know what? It's tiring. I don't like feeling like a Weird Different Out Of Place person, sometimes I just want to feel normal.
When I write, I create an idealized narrative where someone like me can openly exist in, say, the 1920s or a fantasy world that is usually horrible for women/trans folks/lgb folks/disabled folks/etc.. I think this is just as useful as directly addressing discrimination through a narrative, since it creates a platform where people outside the norm ARE normalized without further exhausting marginalized people. Instead, it is empowering. We can look at these narratives and see that it is possible to exist without being inherently punished, y'know?
Plus, a lot of times discrimination as a sideplot is handled v awkwardly, like... idk, remember the half-elf racism in Tales of Symphonia? If you haven't played it, don't waste your time. If you have: holy shit, remember how clumsy that shit was? It was more about the human protag -- a person who was privileged by that universe insofar as race goes -- standing up for his half elf friends, who rarely spoke up for themselves and instead were subject to horrible, violent abuse from most of the people around them. And in the end?? The resolution we got?? "Racism is bad.... we shouldn't do racism.... but also HALF-ELVES STANDING UP FOR THEMSELVES IN UNSAVORY WAYS THAT INVOKE VIOLENCE TO ANSWER THE VIOLENCE THEY FACE IS JUST AS BAD AS ACTUAL DISCRIMINATION!!!!" which is just such a huge No, You're Wrong, Narrative.
idk. I don't like to directly address discrimination because I already do that irl. I like my escapism. I'm sick of lazy narratives that end with the radical thought "DISCRIMINATION... IS WRONG MAYBE... WOW" since w/e man a literal 4 year old could tell you that. If you can't do better than that, don't include it (not addressing you personally, here, that was a general you!)
When I write, I create an idealized narrative where someone like me can openly exist in, say, the 1920s or a fantasy world that is usually horrible for women/trans folks/lgb folks/disabled folks/etc.. I think this is just as useful as directly addressing discrimination through a narrative, since it creates a platform where people outside the norm ARE normalized without further exhausting marginalized people. Instead, it is empowering. We can look at these narratives and see that it is possible to exist without being inherently punished, y'know?
Plus, a lot of times discrimination as a sideplot is handled v awkwardly, like... idk, remember the half-elf racism in Tales of Symphonia? If you haven't played it, don't waste your time. If you have: holy shit, remember how clumsy that shit was? It was more about the human protag -- a person who was privileged by that universe insofar as race goes -- standing up for his half elf friends, who rarely spoke up for themselves and instead were subject to horrible, violent abuse from most of the people around them. And in the end?? The resolution we got?? "Racism is bad.... we shouldn't do racism.... but also HALF-ELVES STANDING UP FOR THEMSELVES IN UNSAVORY WAYS THAT INVOKE VIOLENCE TO ANSWER THE VIOLENCE THEY FACE IS JUST AS BAD AS ACTUAL DISCRIMINATION!!!!" which is just such a huge No, You're Wrong, Narrative.
idk. I don't like to directly address discrimination because I already do that irl. I like my escapism. I'm sick of lazy narratives that end with the radical thought "DISCRIMINATION... IS WRONG MAYBE... WOW" since w/e man a literal 4 year old could tell you that. If you can't do better than that, don't include it (not addressing you personally, here, that was a general you!)
