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FROM ARCHADES TO CRESCENT ~ TOWN DESIGN FOR THE SOLO DEV
Posts
djbeardo
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djbeardo
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CloseI saw a show with a bunch of Disney World designers and they talked about how they plan the different little towns all around the park - I so wish that I could find it on youtube or something... this was years ago. Some Travel Channel thing, undoubtedly.
Anyways, they're suggestion for a town was to create one central characteristic that was the highest, most interesting thing in the town - and then make everything else in the town in service to that. So: Cinderella's Castle in Disney World; the Epcot Ball in Epcot Center; the big ass tree in the zoo park; etc.
And, if done well, could mayber serve to make a place that is at once 1) interesting, 2) easy to make for a single dev, 3) fun for the player, and 4) consistent with the worldbuilding of the game. Since I've been playing Bravely Default/Second recently, the all-female-beauty town and clock town are good examples of this.
Then, past the architecture, I think a good way to make things interesting (and it's been discussed here already) is a mix of NPCs. I thought that this blog make a number of good points and I think a balance of the various types of NPCs would serve towns well so that they are engaging for players (at least, for the people who talk to NPCs): Click.
Anyways, they're suggestion for a town was to create one central characteristic that was the highest, most interesting thing in the town - and then make everything else in the town in service to that. So: Cinderella's Castle in Disney World; the Epcot Ball in Epcot Center; the big ass tree in the zoo park; etc.
And, if done well, could mayber serve to make a place that is at once 1) interesting, 2) easy to make for a single dev, 3) fun for the player, and 4) consistent with the worldbuilding of the game. Since I've been playing Bravely Default/Second recently, the all-female-beauty town and clock town are good examples of this.
Then, past the architecture, I think a good way to make things interesting (and it's been discussed here already) is a mix of NPCs. I thought that this blog make a number of good points and I think a balance of the various types of NPCs would serve towns well so that they are engaging for players (at least, for the people who talk to NPCs): Click.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
my brain exploded into shit
LockeZ
I absolutely hated most of FF12's towns. Especially Rabanastre. Fuck any town that tries to get me to stay there and do errands instead of continuing to pursue some sort of conflict. And fuck any town big enough that it needs a tram system.
I don't dislike the way traditional JRPG towns work, where you just go in and talk to seven people and shop for new weapons and armor. It bothers me when seven people and a couple shops are laid out in Dragon Warrior fashion as though they were an entire city, though, just from an aesthetic standpoint. But I am completely happy - overjoyed, even - if that's all there is to do but the locale is more interesting/relevant.
My #1 goal in any town is to leave it.
Would any given town be improved with a giant bomb or cannon in the center?
Marrend
What I found most interesting about the towns in FF12 is that not all the NPCs were interactible. At least, that's how I remember it. It's certainly been a while since I've played it.
I don't know if something like this has been mentioned, but, I've been playing Suikoden 2, so, perhaps my thinking is a bit skewed in that direction. Not that there aren't towns in that series, but, having a place with which you base your operations in that improves itselfwith recruitsover time might be a thing to consider.
Having an evolving base is definitely a good way to save on effort, while still having the time to upgrade it occasionally. I like that. You'd have to design your world purposefully, though, and I don't think S2 is actually a great example of a game without interesting towns since most towns tie directly to various characters (Hunter's village for Tengaar/Hix/Viktor/Neclord, any town that Luca devestations, High Rock(?) because, uh, big climax, and Gregminster being a huge callback to Suiko1...). In fact, Suikoden in general is pretty good at this -- tying into what Jude said, each town has a purpose and the entire game is built around exploring towns as part of the main conceit.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Corfaisus, you forgot to take your anxiety meds.
Craze, literally any location would be improved by the addition of a giant cannon, up to and including the Chocobo Ranch in FF7, Green Hill Zone in Sonic 2, the merchant town you build yourself in Dragon Quest 3, Laharl's headquarters in Disgaea, every single battle map in Final Fantasy Tactics, The Lost Woods in every Zelda game, Ioka Village in 65 million BC in Chrono Trigger, and the zoo in Earthbound Zero. If Archades shot you between districts with cannon travel instead of making you collect 100 bottles of sandalwood schnapps to trade for a train ticket, FF12 would be a vastly improved game.
Having just one central town that you keep returning to and continuously upgrade is very common in dungeon crawlers. You don't see it often in other types of RPGs because letting the player control the layout of the location makes it harder to have any kind of events or cut scenes there.
Having just one central town that you keep returning to and don't continuously upgrade is a pretty solid method though. Disgaea is an okay example of this. Dragon Age 2 and Dragon Age 3 are both fantastic examples of this. Majora's Mask does this really well, despite also having a number of other "safe zones" that are not towns. Kingdom Hearts games all mostly do this. Events occur and characters appear in the central town based on the plot, not based on the player building upgrades. The trick is figuring out how the equipment/skill purchasing works - KH handles this by making everything bought with a crafting system so you need ingredients from dungeons, while Dragon Age and Disgaea update the shops based on the plot, and Majora's Mask just doesn't sell anything except consumables and makes you get all your junk from dungeons.
Craze, literally any location would be improved by the addition of a giant cannon, up to and including the Chocobo Ranch in FF7, Green Hill Zone in Sonic 2, the merchant town you build yourself in Dragon Quest 3, Laharl's headquarters in Disgaea, every single battle map in Final Fantasy Tactics, The Lost Woods in every Zelda game, Ioka Village in 65 million BC in Chrono Trigger, and the zoo in Earthbound Zero. If Archades shot you between districts with cannon travel instead of making you collect 100 bottles of sandalwood schnapps to trade for a train ticket, FF12 would be a vastly improved game.
Having just one central town that you keep returning to and continuously upgrade is very common in dungeon crawlers. You don't see it often in other types of RPGs because letting the player control the layout of the location makes it harder to have any kind of events or cut scenes there.
Having just one central town that you keep returning to and don't continuously upgrade is a pretty solid method though. Disgaea is an okay example of this. Dragon Age 2 and Dragon Age 3 are both fantastic examples of this. Majora's Mask does this really well, despite also having a number of other "safe zones" that are not towns. Kingdom Hearts games all mostly do this. Events occur and characters appear in the central town based on the plot, not based on the player building upgrades. The trick is figuring out how the equipment/skill purchasing works - KH handles this by making everything bought with a crafting system so you need ingredients from dungeons, while Dragon Age and Disgaea update the shops based on the plot, and Majora's Mask just doesn't sell anything except consumables and makes you get all your junk from dungeons.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
ba ba ba blam
shit everywhere
shit everywhere
author=Craze
So, how do you get the best ratio of effort to player experience out of your towns?
I couldn't read the entire topic but I would like to contribute to this even though I haven't released the games I've been working on ... because of work... :D;
But I think it depends on what you want to do with the world's immersion and if you want to write an epic rather than a personal experience of a merry band of friends. Because I don't believe that maps only serve for NPCs/gameplay but I think should be either a) reflection of the hero's journey. b) the world itself and relation with the gameplay. Which I know isn't a very popular opinion lol.
In Final Fantasy, we are supposed to look at the cast and the bigger picture. But I think Dragon's Quest does the whole world design a lot better. I feel like it's about the adventure, personal hardship and the world itself. To be specific, my favorite is Dragon Quest III. Here are some points to elaborate:
Medals = To make the world live they added a simple thing, which in my honest opinion, is a big contribution to the experience. I feel more compelled to discover a town and the rewards aren't half bad. The NPC in the well is a very cute touch that tells you that nothing is mundane to explore over because you might just find something! It doesn't mean DQ doesn't have any other things going for it, but searching for medals gives players aim and make them discover narratives by accident which is pretty cool.
Keys = You can go back to very old areas and unlock areas that you couldn't do before until halfway through the game. And despite having a huge world and another huge world you discover later, try a key here and there and then discover new things and events.
The NPCs and having a living relative = also react based on your achievements. I found that I go back to the very first town just to see how my mom reacted on the news of my journey.
So a teleport spell + kickass soundtrack + new areas to explore in a town is what made me sink hours on Dragon Quest III. But I cared enough for the world of that game that when I found out I can never go back 'home' at World 1 was legitimately depressing but the ultimate sacrifice.
Man this is becoming a wall of text, but if it interests you, here's how I design my towns:
1.) Environmental Storytelling + Foreshadowing for a later event or motivation for conflict of the game. This isn't like, burn village down in a fire, but a lot more subtle.
2.) I make each chapter stop at a town and let it be like an HQ hub for that time. But the story usually rotates between the 5 major cities. If I could, I'd love to expand more events if you decide to go back and forth, between cities but RM destroys itself when I have enough events happening.
and stuff here but you get the idea <_<;
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I'm still running Windows XP on my computer, and in fifteen years of using RPG Maker I've never seen it run slow because of "too many events." I'm not sure anything could convince me that's a real thing that can ever happen unless you're running it on a Pentium 2. You can make your game lag, sure, but the quantity of events is never what causes it.
author=LockeZ
I'm still running Windows XP on my computer, and in fifteen years of using RPG Maker I've never seen it run slow because of "too many events." I'm not sure anything could convince me that's a real thing that can ever happen unless you're running it on a Pentium 2. You can make your game lag, sure, but the quantity of events is never what causes it.
You can make the game lag with purely empty events. I have it happened lately in RPG Maker MV and we had to fix that shit. But it's like a heisenbug that one moment you are fine, the next moment all the autotiles and events are killing your game in an otherwise empty project with no plugins or anything on it. (src: I work w/ RPG Maker dev team investigating this.) >_>;
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
I think I've found my answer.
"You’re always looking for a mountain to climb. That’s what keeps you alive. That’s what keeps you vital. And maybe when you can’t find a mountain, you build one.”
No Pain, No Gain.
Stallone says “the only movie I never got hurt on was Stop or My Mom Will Shoot.” And that’s a film most people like to forget. His best movies were the ones with the most sweat and hardships. The harder you work on a project, the better the result can be. I don’t meant to get off the topic of Stallone, but to switch over to Bruce Campbell for one moment, he said it best. “The harder it is to make, the easier it is to watch.”
"You’re always looking for a mountain to climb. That’s what keeps you alive. That’s what keeps you vital. And maybe when you can’t find a mountain, you build one.”
author=Archeia_Nessiah
You can make the game lag with purely empty events. I have it happened lately in RPG Maker MV and we had to fix that shit. But it's like a heisenbug that one moment you are fine, the next moment all the autotiles and events are killing your game in an otherwise empty project with no plugins or anything on it. (src: I work w/ RPG Maker dev team investigating this.) >_>;
Autotiles are calculated each frame? I can't think of any other reason why an autotile would slow down the loop. I calculate mine only when the map loads, and then update adjacent tiles if/when one changes.
The main way to reduce slowdown in RM2000 was to set events to fixed graphic where possible, otherwise it's going to call an animation method of some kind every frame, even if there's nothing to animate.
I'll just leave this here...
author=Corfaisus
For the sake of trying something new - and to cut down on development time significantly (because I don't already have an ice cube's chance in hell to finish by Christmas) - I decided to bust out the ol' tablet and draw myself a world map, using points and graphics from the RTP basis tileset to dot the land with locations. Due to the shortness of the game, I actually had to scratch my head about how I'd portray this region properly without making it feel empty, and this just seemed like the best solution.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Huh. In RMXP there was a popular script everyone always used to prevent off-screen graphics from being drawn, because maps with over a thousand or so events would lag on old 1998 computers otherwise. But my understanding was that in VX Ace (and maybe VX) that was changed to be default engine behavior. Did they change it back in MV?
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
the shit keeps coming
I'm not a stalker. It's on the first page of the first thread in forum. I just happened to be browsing it and this one at the same time today, and found it rather amusing.
Proof is a strong word, one that I spent many years in academia removing from my vocabulary. However, that post is solid evidence of you taking a shortcut for the sake of saving time, something for which you've been attacking the OP in this thread. Don't you think that's just a little hypocritical?
And as it stands, in this context there's no significant difference between a hard deadline, a soft deadline, or just the desire to finish in a reasonable amount of time. It all boils down to getting the thing finished when you want it to be finished.
Proof is a strong word, one that I spent many years in academia removing from my vocabulary. However, that post is solid evidence of you taking a shortcut for the sake of saving time, something for which you've been attacking the OP in this thread. Don't you think that's just a little hypocritical?
And as it stands, in this context there's no significant difference between a hard deadline, a soft deadline, or just the desire to finish in a reasonable amount of time. It all boils down to getting the thing finished when you want it to be finished.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
You probably get the picture by now.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
This is really getting out of hand.
First Page of First Topic in Game Dev Forum
No, really. Literally just stumbled upon it. Call it a happy coincidence.
But seriously, Corf. You have the worst attitude. You happen to be very good at mapping, and you occasionally have a decent nugget of wisdom worth sharing, but you lord it over the rest of us like you're the gods' gift to game development.
Take a chill pill, and use your obvious talents to raise people up, rather than bring them down.
No, really. Literally just stumbled upon it. Call it a happy coincidence.
But seriously, Corf. You have the worst attitude. You happen to be very good at mapping, and you occasionally have a decent nugget of wisdom worth sharing, but you lord it over the rest of us like you're the gods' gift to game development.
Take a chill pill, and use your obvious talents to raise people up, rather than bring them down.
